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W C Greene
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Is anybody else out there using radio control on their layout. I'm not talking about "tv tuner technology" but real r/c with onboard batteries and control. I know there are a few crazies who have done this but there needs to be many more. It sure makes operation easier and when one goes "wireless", it is much more fun to run trains.

W C Greene-Texas Outlaws' official troublemaker

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Oh Woody, you're spoiling my surprise. I have a  RC On30 train running. No more trouble with turnouts.

I'm putting together a tutorial but I'm in the middle of something that's taking all my time.

I'll try to get something posted ASAP.

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Bob-I didn't mean to spoil your suprise! It's about time there is some "action" started in what I believe to be the future of model railroading. Good luck, I will be down in the basement fixin'  up some medicine. (old Bob Dylan line).

   W C Greene-Mogollon Railway, Los Pinos y Madera RR, and the Boquillas Prismoidal Railroad(monorail), general troublemaker & nitpicker kicker

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Now this sounds like it would be very suited to G scale running outdoors, Does one get to have sound and smoke.
I do not have any G scale yet, main reason being the maintenance and cleaning,( It would not have anything to do with cost :Hmm:) but never say never.

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Funny you guys should have mentioned this today.

I was at the LHS and they were setting up a G scale train for RC.

They hid the batteries..all 15 D cells in a box car...heavy stuff man...literally!

They were figuring 5 hours to the charge...not bad at all.


Looking forward to your surprise Bob! :bg:

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With the newer Ion Lithium type battery, I could see getting a much smaller, lighter weight battery to get the job done for a 4 hour operating session, but the cost of these batteries is going to have to come down before it gets any serious consideration...........Tried buying a Dremel battery for your small cordless yet??

Dont bother, you can buy the entire unit cheaper!!

dewalt 18V battery...90.00........YES, they last a long time BUT not forever.......You WILL replace these.

Regular Duracell Alkaline D cell batteries are out of the question.......15 batteries at 1.50 a pop & not reccomended to recharge

RC & Trains has a ways to go yet I'm afraid before it is taken seriously.............eventually however it very well may............Now where did I put that solar battery charging panel i picked up back in the 80's hmmmmmmmm ;)

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Large scale r/c has been around for quite awhile, I'm talking about On30, On3, S, HO, and even N scale r/c. It HAS been done in N here in Dallas but the fellow who built the equipment said that when he showed it to his "club", they were very un-impressed and went back to table thumping and short circuit searching. I have been "pushing" r/c for a number of years and some of the local guys are tired of my tirades so they stay with their old-timey controls.  Someday.....

In the mean time, I am using rechargable Lithium batteries and very small r/c auto receivers/speed controls in my narrow gauge locos. Lithiums ain't cheap but they work quite well. Some of the "converts" use regular old 9 volt alkalines for power and love it.  I have written volumes about this and if anyone is really, REALLY interested, I can be persuaded to write more. Currently, here in Dallas there are several guys using r/c in On30, one has an HO r/c loco, and a friend & I run 1:32n20 r/c mining operations. I am a "silent runner" and don't care for sound effects, however most sound boards which operate on analog dc (Tsunami, etc) can supply the noise. Yep, the cost is rather high, but compared to a full blown dcc system, it is perhaps a bit less expensive-consider that you will never need Brite Boys and any of the associated complex wiring and switches to run the trains.

Whatever melts your butter is what I advocate, if you enjoy dc or dcc, I won't try to persuade you, if you are tired of 'lecktricity-this may be for you.

                W C Greene-having fun without wires

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I'm for one am Really interested.:Brilliant:

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Now that you're interested, find some r/c car racers & r/c flyers in your area and get to be friends with them. They know all the tricks and can help you along. One of my friends could care less about trains, but is a fine r/c jet flyer and has given much valuable advice and coaxing with what I am doing. At the local r/c car shop, checkout TEAM LOSI MICRO-T receivers, cost about 30 bucks and easily fit into Bachmann On30 tenders along with a battery. Then all you need is a transmitter(some guys will give you one-an old 27MHZ job) or buy a new Futaba 2 channel/2 stick r/c set, cost less than 50 bucks, a 9 volt battery and  battery plug/holder and go to town. The equipment can be put into a trailer car (box or gon) and the little lokies (Porters, etc) can be plugged in & run. When you do this, you will want to SEVER the connection between track pickup (or get rid of it all together) and motor, same as dcc installations but much simpler! If you can get a copy of LIGHT IRON DIGEST Vol 6, Number 5-Oct/Nov 2004, I had a pretty comprehensive story about r/c in my old On30 stuff and still use the same components except now I use the Lithium rechargables. By the way, these receivers have PROPORTIONAL speed control and run the locos the same as with dc or dcc but since you don't need clean track, life is easier!

I could get up on my soapbox and mouth off, but will use the old quote-"try it, you'll like it!"                W C Greene (Woodie)                    

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Thanks for the start Woodie!

I will look into this stuff and see what I can gather on the information end of it.

I already have an idea of what I would like to try...no not going to tell yet...but if I do...it will be cool!!

Will keep you informed as i investigate. :Brilliant:

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I started writing this a few weeks ago…
 



Battery Operated/Remote Control Trains



When I built my On30 Center Line layout I quickly discovered that those cute 0-4-0 locomotives just don’t want to run through turnouts. That was the first time I looked into battery operated locos. It’s very simple to hook a loco up to a battery but you need some way to control it. Remote control.
 
I hunted around on the internet and found lots of people talking about battery operated/ remote control but finding any decent information on how to do it was difficult.


There’s a Yahoo group called the Texas Outlaws. They had a couple of people using RC and a lot of references to it but not enough details. I even ran into them at a couple of trains shows and talked to them. Still couldn’t figure it out.

 
The info I could gather went something like this: “Get a receiver and some crystals, get an ESC unit, get some batteries and hook it all up. Oh, yeah, get a transmitter too.”
 
Hmmm!?
 

RC cars have been around for a long time and they aren’t that different than a train. They go forward and backwards, they can go fast or slow and they can turn left or right. A train only needs two of the three so it shouldn’t be that hard. I went to some RC hobby shops and the people working (mostly kids) just scratched their heads and said “that should work” but they wouldn’t (or couldn’t) come up with any solutions for me.

 
I knew one option would be to buy a complete RC car and pull out the parts. I could probably do that now but I didn’t know enough to try it a month ago.

 
Back to the Texas Outlaws. One of their members, Woody, seamed to be the ring leader of the effort and know the most about it. I checked back on the Yahoo site recently and saw a post from Woody about a new receiver/ESC unit that simplified the process. Woody works at a hobby shop in Dallas so I gave him a call one morning. The next thing I knew, I was at the shop. The next thing I knew, I had a train running.

 
OK – DISCLAIMER. I will tell you exactly what I bought and what I did. It works for me. It should work for you. But if it blows up for you, it’s not my fault.

 
First I bought a Receiver/ESC (electronic speed control) from Team LOSI, about 30 bucks. The product number is LOSB0803.

  
Then I bought a Futaba 2DR digital proportional 2-stick transmitter, about 50 bucks.

 

 

 

The Futaba came with some servos and a receiver. You don’t use those. It also included a set of crystals. I took the crystal out of the included receiver and put it in the LOSI receiver.

 
I used a regular 9-volt battery. This battery powers both the train and the receiver.

 
The specs for receiver say the maximum voltage is 8.4 volts. What’s .6 volts among friends? (See disclaimer above)

 
You hook the black and red wires from the receiver to the battery and the orange and blue go to the engine.

 
IT WORKS. It didn’t take more than 30 minutes to put it all together. 

 
I just dropped everything in a gondola.

  

 The battery and receiver will easily fit into one of my small On30 boxcars.

 
The motor makes a high pitched noise when it is running really slow but it goes away with increased speed. It runs a little jerky but as I run it more often, I get better at operating it.

 
I actually bought a second receiver so I can use the other joystick and operate two separate engines from one receiver.

 
That’s all for now.           Questions please.

Bob

Last edited on Wed May 16th, 2007 04:29 pm by Trebor

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Hey there, Dave & W. C.:
    This sounds very interesting. Keep me posted on the developments, too.
If it's HO, I want it!! (Kinda....If the Home Management approves):bow::bow::bow:

I have one of those little RC cars that fit into the palm of your hand. These were popular a while back. I think from Radio Shack. If this will do, I am very good at tearing things apart. It's the putting them back together,and working, that's giving me fits.

Last edited on Wed May 16th, 2007 04:05 pm by HO DOCTOR

W C Greene
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Another source for small r/c boards is KYOSHO MINI-Z RACER cars, these boards are a bit smaller than the LOSI boards but cost more and are hard to find. Most of my stuff has the KYOSHO boards and I have never had any problems with them using either 9 volts or 11 volt Lithiums, same for the LOSI boards. Good luck, I know that once you run without wires, you will wonder why everybody isn't!

               W C Greene-wireless in Dallas

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Ok I guess the first question I have is...whats a crystal?

and Why did you have to replace it?

That looks a little larger than I had hoped...But I may be able to get around it....if I try it.

Is it noisy because of the motor in the little switcher?

I have that one and it sounds like a wreck to begin with.

Does it run smooth at low speed?

I was thinking of going the RC car route and ripping it apart and using the motor and all as I would be building the loco from the ground up anyway.

I would think I could get a decent setup for 80 bucks.

What are your opinions on that?

W C Greene
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Here's another quick post-the little bitty r/c cars don't have the PROPORTIONAL speed control....yet! If any of you know what a Cletrac tractor was, a very nice model of one can be made with a 10 dollar tiny r/c tank available at most big electronics stores. Don't overlook the tiny cars, however, I have used these little boards to power and control various operations (like my rotary car dumper) which don't need speed control. Imagination is all any of this takes and my hat is off to Bob for his great piece on r/c which I just read. Great work Bob!!!!

                the Outlaw troublemaker 

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Dave, the crystals are little plug-ins that match the frequency of the transmitter and receiver.

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This brings up some Veeeeeeeery Interesting Possibilities.............Keep us updated Bob............experiments are soooo very cool!!    :thumb:

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One thing to remember (or be aware of) when thinking about switching a loco to r/c is that the loco should be a good runner to begin with. R/c won't cure a balky and noisy loco, the engine must be broken in properly and be worthy of the conversion. You really can't make a silk purse from the sow's ear in this case.

Have fun....W C Greene

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The noise come from the ESC. It controls the speed by switching on and off rapidly. At low speeds, it makes some noise.

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Hey Bob-here's something you might try for the hum noise-solder a couple of tiny capacitors across the motor brushes. This quited the noise in one of my locos. You might try some sound effects to hide the noise, but sometimes I would rather listen to the board hum than chuff chuff stuff. How about this-put on headphones and listen to some cool jazz or classical music, that's my kind of noise! And yes, there are capacitors available for this at the hobby shop made by Trinity Products but I don't remember the part number, they are in the r/c car department. I am glad there is interest in this area, if a train manufacturer would jump on board life would sure be easier.

Better living with batteries- ye old troublemaker

BTW-I got a glimpse at some really, REALLY tiny rechargable Lithium Ion batteries that would surely fit in most any HO and possibly some N locos. Now if we could discover a smaller board that does what we want (and a not too expensive price). I also heard that CREST (Aristo Craft) is cutting its' DC ENGINEER board and transmitter. This costs more than the car stuff deoes, but it can be run with batteries and the boards are a little smaller. For some strange reason, Crest never mentions in their brocures that this thing can be run from batteries, their plan is to keep track wiring & turn up the speed-a sort of dcc-ish plan. I believe that if they promoted using their system with batteries, maybe they would see increased sales! Oh well, what do I know about such things!

 

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It seems sir you do know alot about this arena. The DCC thing hasnt taken complete hold of the market so with all they have invested in that I dont think they will bring out the " next best thing ".

This thread has gotten me thinking, I have several R/C cars that have been retired   (  dont jump a $250 car off a 20 foot wall at 35 miles an hour, it wont survive!) I need to figure out how to the the works in an HO scale train.

Last edited on Fri May 18th, 2007 08:38 am by Big River Railman

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Hi All,

Woodie helped me get started in radio control about 1 1/2 years ago and I've never turned back.  I model in 3/8n20 and Woodie got me started in this too! I really like the Kyosho/Losi boards and have also used the HO Crest boards too.  I bought one of the Crest receivers and Transmitter and thought it was worth the try of replacing the track power with the Lithium Polymer battery and it worked!  I wrote up an article on all of this about a year ago on the Texas Outlaws sight.  The Crest system works great for me but I know several people who tried it had problems with it.  There are a couple of key features that I like about the Crest system - You can adjust the momentum to make engines run REALLY slow, you can manually turn the directional headlight on and off and there is no noise from the board.  The board is actually a 72 MHZ FM board. I'm on my second transmitter though as the first one quit after about 4 months.  I saw on Walther's that these units are now being discontinued and are being replaced by a new 900 MHZ unit sometime in the future but I have not been able to locate any additional information about this on the Crest website.

Either way, I can vouch for the ease of using radio control.  I used to love the sound aspect of my trains but after starting a layout with no wires or electrical headaches, it far outweighs the sound.  I tinkered with using a Tsunami in one of the engines but thus far have not been able to tweak it to work to my satisfaction.  But, I'm still working on it!

Thanks again Woodie!

Travis in Frisco, TX

 

W C Greene
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Travis-you are too nice! If you guys want to see some extremely fine modeling, persuade Travis to send some pix of his stuff.

I might warn some of you, all this talk about r/c and no wiring tends to outrage some modelers. I would suggest that you keep your mouth shut, install r/c gear, and have fun. If anyone asks, tell them you run by "FM"-^%$ing magic!

                          Woodie C Greene

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Woodie,

Eh, I can't really model but I sure am having fun!  What I really like doing is things that people say "that can't be done".   It's like the learning curve with anything you do out there.  I used to use DCC and took me a long time just to get up the nerve to hook up the wires and see if it works.    The first time I saw a radio control loco run I knew it was for me.   Now I can solder up a Crest board in about 15 minutes.   What is really boils down to is what you really want.  I wanted the freedom from wires and electricity.  Well, I do have to use electricity to recharge the batteries every 3-6 months with my lithium polymer charger! 

Keep up the excellent modeling and inspirations to us all Woodie!

Travis in Frisco, TX

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Woodie, thanks for making me aware of this site. I don't understand why some people would be outraged by R/C in small trains. Large scale has been using it for quite a while and it's gaining interest.

The next time i'm at the hobby shop I'll step over to the R/C counter to see what I can find out.

Larry T.

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Welcome Aboard Larry!! (tourists driving you nuts yet??)

I was out your way last year, It had been awhile.......I had forgotten just how nice that spearfish canyon area was :)

As to RC:

What we really need is a Bunch of How to do it with Photo's.

Convert an engine...do a How to for that specific unit.

I imagine it wouldnt take long to cover all of the On30 mechanisms available........HO might be a different story.

The only way to get people Really involved in RC is to take them by the hand and show them step by step just how easy it is..........

Marketing the RC products specifically needed for trains wouldnt be a bad idea either......Maybe somebody could even make a couple of bucks!! :thumb:

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OK-I will try to send some conversion photos, my problem is that I won't take my already running r/c locos apart for such stuff. I do have a Bachmann On30 2-8-0 which would work for a "how to"...really, these conversions are easy, all you need to have is the willpower and the ability to solder 4 or 5 wires together. I must relate that you will want to use a well-running loco for the r/c conversion. Radio won't make a poor runner into a jewel, you need to start out with a decent engine to get good results. Bachmann/Spectrum makes nice running locos(a little pricey) so I would look at these. On30 locos are pretty easy to do, large HO work also. Small stuff might require a trailer car with the equipment and then all you need is one trailer to couple behind several locos. You need to be un-afraid to use a razor saw and motor tool on your engine since the modifications may require a little more room for batteries, but it can be done! Also, I have found it easier and better (for me) to disable and get rid of the track wipers, pickups, etc. from the loco. I figure that when I convert something to r/c, I won't ever want it to run with antique technology any more anyway. My advice is to go to a hobby shop that has r/c cars and check oujt what's available. Your local train shop will just treat you like you're crazy-at least the big one here in town is that way. The small r/c units for cars work great and you don't need expensive rechargable batteries, the units can run off a 9 volt alkaline battery for a long time. I do use Lithium-polymer rechargable batteries in my stuff, but that's just me. I run a mining road with stiff 10-12% grades so I need the extra "oomph" these batteries provide. Write me if you need more info, there is more to this story than I can post at one time. Since you are reading this on a dedicated r/c site, I can make the statement that once you have tried running wireless, you will not go back! If you are planning on spending bucks on a dcc system, stop and think about r/c, it is far simpler, a bit cheaper, and without wiring and clean track problems, you are free to build a layout that actually operates and focus on other things besides complicated wiring, programming, short and open circuits, and where you put that stinkin' Brite Boy track cleaner!!! Have fun.

           Woodie C Greene  

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Tileguy, Thanks for the welcome, nice to be aboard this forum.
Tourists bring money and that is mostly what our economy is based on so we don't mind the extra traffic. When the motorcycle rally is going on our population doubles.

We don't have a lot of the things available in larger cities but WHO'S Hobby here in Rapid City can usually have what I need within a week or so. They do have a nice R/C area and I hope to find what I need next time I go there.

I'm looking forward to trying R/C in 3/8" scale 20" gauge. Also thinking of trying one in HO standard gauge. I belong to a HO club up in Deadwood and don't understand the controls that well so R/C would solve that problem.

Larry T.

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W C Greene-Texas Outlaws' official troublemaker

 

Woody, I am all ears, this is really sounding like the way to go for my portable...I am thinking me and you will be talking alot!!

Ive got an On30 Shay and An O-4-2 Porter to convert...........R/C solves a few problems for me that Most wouldnt have to deal with and this alone makes me a prime candidate for stepping up to the plate!!

Looking forward to your conversion Pictures!!!

Todd

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I'm looking forward to hearing more.  I've a couple On30 Porters, a Shay and a Mogul that would certainly benefit from conversion.

 

Steve

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OK guys-the r/c gear will fit into the tenders of the Bachmann locos, the On30 2-8-0 is pretty simple since the tender already has a wiring harness to the loco, the 2-6-0 would have to be modified with a wiring harness. The Shay can be run with a 9 volt alkaline battery in the bunker. To make this fit, the bunker has to be "hogged out" with a moto tool and then the 9 volt and board can be shoehorned in. The 0-4-2t Porter can be r/c also, either by making a simple little "tender" for the stuff or by using a Banta all-weather cab kit to hide the stuff. There are several options for the r/c boards. For r/c cars-check out the nice and available board for the LOSI MICRO T cars, any shop that deals with r/c cars will have this or can get it for you. A smaller board is made by KYOSHO for their MINI Z RACER cars (what I use)-these are hard to find right now and pricey. A knock off of this board is made by IWAVER for their Mini Z hop up parts. And here's something made for model railroads-CREST (Aristo Craft) makes the DC ENGINEER with the transmitter and board available through stores that carry Aristo Craft. While the car boards are made for cars and we have adapted them, the Crest has a more familiar transmitter for railroaders. All of these systems can be run with 9 volt batteries or the Lithium rechargables some of us use. There is so much info to spew about this subject, you would need to get an idea of this yourself. Look at r/c car stuff (small scale, not the big gas cars) and check out what's available. Radio Shack makes an inexpensive little car that has a fair board-what you are looking for here is PROPORTIONAL FORWARD AND REVERSE control. Some of the cheap cars have "sort of" proportional, speed is added or subtracted in steps-useful for railcars or maybe an old class A Climax, but not very good for doing switching for example. I can't tell you just how really simple this all is, you have to convert something once and then you will understand. I do dcc installations at a local hobby shop and I can convert a locomotive to r/c in far less time than it takes to install a dcc decoder and do all the cv's and other programming. I probably spend far more time looking at the locomotive and thinking about that "first cut" than I spend actually doing the "work". I am not an electrical engineer, I am an electrical doofus so if I can do this, so can anybody else, all it takes is imagination and a willingness to butcher up a nice locomotive. But you will be rewarded with a reliable loco that will run anytime, anywhere(even without track!) and on anybody's layout without any problems. I wish Walthers or somebody would run an ad with "LOOK AT THIS-REAL RADIO CONTROL FOR YOUR LOCOMOTIVES!!! but they ain't gonna do that, at least right now. There's the choice, you can do this yourself right now or muddle through and hope somebody offers the stuff in the distant future. Someday, there will be micro size r/c with sound, etc. for any locomotive but not at the moment.

As for a show layout-you don't need any 110 plugs anywhere, you don't need extention cords to get power, you don't need to worry about loose connections or that short circuit that only happens when folks look at your display, you don't need a brite boy to clean track and wheels, you don't need any wiring at all, and if you have lights or other operating featgures, they can be run with batteries also. You can set up your layout in the middle of Death Valley if you want and still run trains and sweat. Think about the possibilities and have fun. Bob has a fine piece at the beginning of this section showing what's involved so check it out and be asssured that this is not the end, only the beginning. The large scale garden guys have been using r/c for years and now small scale guys can have the same fun. More film at 11...

                             Woodie C Greene

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Thanks Woodie!

I've one of those little Radio Shack cars with a burned out motor.  As far as I know the electronics in it are still good.  Great little toy! Had a blast with it.

 

Steve

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Woodie,

Do you know of a source for thin, flexible wire and small connectors?

Bob

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Bob-Miniatronics makes small 2, 3, & 4 pin connectors and 30 gauge wire. Scale Shops makes connectors also but need to have the wires soldered on. Also, NWSL makes small wire. The Miniatronics stuff should be available at Hobby Town & Discount Trains. I prefer Miniatronics connectors because they come assembled. The smallest heat shrink I know of is carried by Miniatronics but a large electronics store might have some tiny hs also. Have fun.,

         Woodie

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All,
      I was just at Radio Shack and bought a little 1:32 scale radio control Lamborghini model car on sale for $9.95 (was $19.95). The guy said it had speed control but didn't know how fine the control might be. The car also has forward and reverse. For under 10 bucks I figure I couldn't go too far wrong.
     After I open the little car I'll have a better idea of its usefulness.
If nothing else it will be fun to race the car around for a while.

I'll keep you all informed...... Larry T.

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I've one of them too.  The throttle seems to be fairly responsive.  That being said, I am a model railroader and not an RC modeler, so I've nothing to compare it to.  I'm going to cannabalize mine and try it just to see how it works with a locomotive.

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I say go for it! Try to remember that radio control won't make a poor running loco better. If possible, install the gear in a smooth runner and you will be pleased, in a bad loco, you may give up on the plan. The little Radio Shack boards will probably work with 9 volts, the boards are almost bullet proof anyway. If I knew what parts of the board that control the unused steering function were about, I could probably cut the board down by 30% in size but that takes more moxie than I posess. Good luck with the conversion, let us know how it turns out.

               Woodie C Greene 

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I haven't got a clue about RC applications for our little locos but found these links interesting...

http://www.tinyrc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23445

http://www.mikromodell.de/index_e.html

http://ig.micromotor.org/Tipps/frsmd4_e.html


Last edited on Tue Jun 26th, 2007 08:39 pm by Dwayne

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DW-the HO front end loader is great! The builder didn't tell about what kind of r/c unit he is using but judging from the model, he may have built it himself! He mentioned IR which is infra-red technology, similar to the TV clicker. What we have been using is "hobby grade" radio control that is different from IR. With r/c, the frequency can be changed by changing the frequency that links the transmitter and receiver. Also, r/c has an effective range of several hundred feet at the least, IR  works when the transmitter is pointed to the receiver-just like the tv clicker. The front end loader is a very cool model and maybe the guy will tell more about it in the future. What you are looking for is PROPORTIONAL SPEED AND DIRECTION CONTROL in as small of a unit you can find. My friends & I have probably became aware of maybe 10% of what's available so there is much more research to do. I am trying to explain what I have done, not promoting some product, and I am having too much fun running and building my layout to really devote the time it would take to "surfing the net" for everything that can be used. I have been using r/c in my On30 and lately 3/8n20 locos for probably 4 or 5 years and have had no problems with any of the equipment I have. I am also fortunate to have a good friend who builds r/c planes and he has given me much help and advice along the way. I have been building model railroads for about 50 years and really never had the fun I am having now with the added dimension of radio control. This one thing has freed me from having to build my layout with concerns about wiring, dirty track, and other problems. Since I have no electrical concerns now, if someone connected a power pack up to my layout, the rails would glow red and the power pack would go up in smoke but my locomotives would still run with no hassles! Real railroads don't have wires connected to the rails nor do they run off track power.....so why should my railroad be any different? Whew, I'm up on the soapbox again, but I feel that I can actually say these things on a site devoted to r/c trains.

If you have a Bachmann On30 2-6-0 or 2-8-0, get a TEAM LOSI MICRO-T CAR receiver(about 30 bucks), an inexpensive FUTABA 2 stick car radio(about 45 bucks), an alkaline 9 volt battery (maybe one buck), a battery clip for that battery (also about a buck), and a receiver crystal that matches the Futaba unit's frequency, or a set for another frequency(about 8-12 bucks) and get to work wiring it up. Just isolate the motor like you would do for dcc, and hook it up to the motor output wires on the LOSI board which now resides in the tender along with the 9 volt battery. Put batteries in the transmitter, turn it on and then turn on the loco's board and get to running wireless. That's all there is to it! After the first job, you will be an r/c expert and can do other locos and amaze your friends. Some of them will think it's all craziness, others will be unimpressed, but your friends who are open minded will want to join you and use their power packs as boat anchors. Welcome to the dork side!

          Woodie C Greene 

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DW-the HO front end loader is great! The builder didn't tell about what kind of r/c unit he is using but judging from the model, he may have built it himself! He mentioned IR which is infra-red technology, similar to the TV clicker. What we have been using is "hobby grade" radio control that is different from IR. With r/c, the frequency can be changed by changing the frequency that links the transmitter and receiver. Also, r/c has an effective range of several hundred feet at the least, IR  works when the transmitter is pointed to the receiver-just like the tv clicker. The front end loader is a very cool model and maybe the guy will tell more about it in the future. What you are looking for is PROPORTIONAL SPEED AND DIRECTION CONTROL in as small of a unit you can find. My friends & I have probably became aware of maybe 10% of what's available so there is much more research to do. I am trying to explain what I have done, not promoting some product, and I am having too much fun running and building my layout to really devote the time it would take to "surfing the net" for everything that can be used. I have been using r/c in my On30 and lately 3/8n20 locos for probably 4 or 5 years and have had no problems with any of the equipment I have. I am also fortunate to have a good friend who builds r/c planes and he has given me much help and advice along the way. I have been building model railroads for about 50 years and really never had the fun I am having now with the added dimension of radio control. This one thing has freed me from having to build my layout with concerns about wiring, dirty track, and other problems. Since I have no electrical concerns now, if someone connected a power pack up to my layout, the rails would glow red and the power pack would go up in smoke but my locomotives would still run with no hassles! Real railroads don't have wires connected to the rails nor do they run off track power.....so why should my railroad be any different? Whew, I'm up on the soapbox again, but I feel that I can actually say these things on a site devoted to r/c trains.

If you have a Bachmann On30 2-6-0 or 2-8-0, get a TEAM LOSI MICRO-T CAR receiver(about 30 bucks), an inexpensive FUTABA 2 stick car radio(about 45 bucks), an alkaline 9 volt battery (maybe one buck), a battery clip for that battery (also about a buck), and a receiver crystal that matches the Futaba unit's frequency, or a set for another frequency(about 8-12 bucks) and get to work wiring it up. Just isolate the motor like you would do for dcc, and hook it up to the motor output wires on the LOSI board which now resides in the tender along with the 9 volt battery. Put batteries in the transmitter, turn it on and then turn on the loco's board and get to running wireless. That's all there is to it! After the first job, you will be an r/c expert and can do other locos and amaze your friends. Some of them will think it's all craziness, others will be unimpressed, but your friends who are open minded will want to join you and use their power packs as boat anchors. Welcome to the dork side!

          Woodie C Greene 

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DW-the HO front end loader is great! The builder didn't tell about what kind of r/c unit he is using but judging from the model, he may have built it himself! He mentioned IR which is infra-red technology, similar to the TV clicker. What we have been using is "hobby grade" radio control that is different from IR. With r/c, the frequency can be changed by changing the frequency that links the transmitter and receiver. Also, r/c has an effective range of several hundred feet at the least, IR  works when the transmitter is pointed to the receiver-just like the tv clicker. The front end loader is a very cool model and maybe the guy will tell more about it in the future. What you are looking for is PROPORTIONAL SPEED AND DIRECTION CONTROL in as small of a unit you can find. My friends & I have probably became aware of maybe 10% of what's available so there is much more research to do. I am trying to explain what I have done, not promoting some product, and I am having too much fun running and building my layout to really devote the time it would take to "surfing the net" for everything that can be used. I have been using r/c in my On30 and lately 3/8n20 locos for probably 4 or 5 years and have had no problems with any of the equipment I have. I am also fortunate to have a good friend who builds r/c planes and he has given me much help and advice along the way. I have been building model railroads for about 50 years and really never had the fun I am having now with the added dimension of radio control. This one thing has freed me from having to build my layout with concerns about wiring, dirty track, and other problems. Since I have no electrical concerns now, if someone connected a power pack up to my layout, the rails would glow red and the power pack would go up in smoke but my locomotives would still run with no hassles! Real railroads don't have wires connected to the rails nor do they run off track power.....so why should my railroad be any different? Whew, I'm up on the soapbox again, but I feel that I can actually say these things on a site devoted to r/c trains.

If you have a Bachmann On30 2-6-0 or 2-8-0, get a TEAM LOSI MICRO-T CAR receiver(about 30 bucks), an inexpensive FUTABA 2 stick car radio(about 45 bucks), an alkaline 9 volt battery (maybe one buck), a battery clip for that battery (also about a buck), and a receiver crystal that matches the Futaba unit's frequency, or a set for another frequency(about 8-12 bucks) and get to work wiring it up. Just isolate the motor like you would do for dcc, and hook it up to the motor output wires on the LOSI board which now resides in the tender along with the 9 volt battery. Put batteries in the transmitter, turn it on and then turn on the loco's board and get to running wireless. That's all there is to it! After the first job, you will be an r/c expert and can do other locos and amaze your friends. Some of them will think it's all craziness, others will be unimpressed, but your friends who are open minded will want to join you and use their power packs as boat anchors. Welcome to the dork side!

          Woodie C Greene 

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The possibilities are numbing. :Brilliant: I used to race R/C many years ago and have tons of the stuff packed up, now I need to catch up on the new battery technology and the changes in the transmitters so hopefully I can convert my engines to R/C. I do have a question about what you do with the the antenna, put it on a stick like we used to do in cars or just coil it up at the receiver?:glad:NO MORE WIRES!!!!!  This could be the start of something GREAT!. :cool:

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Thanks for the encouragement.  I've removed the board from the car.  Glad to hear you say they should be able to handle the 9V, 'cause that was my next question.  I'm not willing to go hacking at the board either.

You're point about the locomotive is well taken.  I've 2 On30 Bachmann Spectrum Porters, a Shay and a Mogul.  All well broken in and smooth running.  I'll probably try it out in the Mogul first just for ease of instalation.

It's going to take a couple of days before I can get to it.  My schedule right now is forcasting 12 hr work days until this weekend.  Then comes the "Honey-do" list....etc.

 

Steve

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Oh yes, the antenna!! Since I am usually no more than a couple of feet away from the locomotive, the antenna placement is not as critical as it would if I were across the room running a train. The wire from the board that connects to the longer antenna in the r/c car is about all I am running. You shouldn't coil the antenna wire since that would cause some problems. I tend to run the antenna wire out and try to glue it down in a more or less straight line. Then I can paint it blabk or make it look like a piece of hose or rope laying on the loco somewhere. The antenna is the only thing you will have to mess with, all my locos have different installations. As I stated, I am never far from the locomotive so for me this is not that critical. My railroad has some twisty and bumpy track, covered with weeds and sometimes a derailment may occur-if I'm not being an attentive engineer!  Remember that if you do derail, the train will keep on going across the scenery, just like the real thing. If you just like to watch trains run round and round, r/c may not be what you want but if you like to operate, pick up and set out cars, then you will love it. Experiment with the antenna placement, I think each engine will be different. It might help to do a little antenna research, but that's up to you. Have fun.

             Woodie

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Let’s see if this helps. My little 0-4-0’s are too small to put much of anything inside so I’m going to use a trailing boxcar to hold the battery and receiver.

 

I started with a regular 9 volt battery holder. I turned it upside down and built a little bracket to hold the receiver.



 

Here is the receiver mounted on top. The red and black wires are connected to the battery. The orange and blue wires go to the engine. I’m using a little connector for the engine so I can easily switch the engines.



 

Here’s a pictures of the whole thing in front of one of my 14 scale foot On30 boxcars. As you can see, it will easily fit inside.

 

That’s all there is to it.

Last edited on Wed Jun 27th, 2007 11:30 pm by Trebor

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Nice Job Bob!!  Pictures always Help......:thumb:

So is that a little On Off switch?

What is your plan on mounting it? Underneath the car? Inside the car unmounted?

As to the antenna........Whats the plan there? Can it be hidden under a roofwalk and still be functional?

Can the antenna be removed and a Smaller diameter Wire used in its place for signal reception? Would a Metal Ladder assembly made of brass work for example?

My thought would be a Brass ladder with the big looping handles on the end of a boxcar with the entire ladder as an antenna....Mounting pins go through the side and wires are soldered to the pin ends........If this isnt enough, Perhaps extend something like a pole for a signal flag........OR.......add a railing along the centerwalk of brass wire......(ive seen a roofwalk handrail on a proto photo but they must be unussual at best......still, it is a possibility if necessary.

Woody??? Any thoughts on this?

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Good points Todd. The on/off switch is part of the receiver. I’ll mount it somewhere that it is accessible. I plan to just drop the whole thing into a box car. I might make a frame to keep it from moving but I want to be able to remove it easily to change the battery. (I haven’t had to change it)

 

I plan to just loop the antennae inside the boxcar. I’ll see how that works for starters. My final plan is to build a MOW car and hide the antennae like a piece of rope of something. If that doesn’t work, I’ll get with the RC guys and figure out how to increase reception.

 

Right now, I just have it sitting in a gondola. Works great.

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I haven't really worried about antenna placement with my locos, whatever seems to work is OK for me. I realize that some fellows may want to stand off a ways when they run a train, but I am close...maybe no more than 2 feet away, so if I can control the model at that range, I'm fine with the installation.  Receiver antennas SHOULD be laid out in a straight line and not coiled back on itself. In that perfect world, the receiver antenna should be around 38 inches for 27MHZ receivers, but that would be for (as an example) controlling an r/c car at a distance or a sailboat out on the lake. I have seen the 38 inch antenna carefully wound around (not touching) a piece of plastic tubing which can then be hidden inside a small boxcar, etc. Experimentation is the word here.

One thing Bob hasn't brought up is the "Captain Kirk space pistol" transmitters that are associated with many r/c cars. Bob is using a nice Futaba 2 stick transmitter which is acceptable to most modelers, the pistol grip transmitter is kind of strange and alien to what we want to do. I have taken a couple of these units and put the components into Radio Shack boxes which look like a normal wireless throttle. It takes some fiddling, but is easier to use and looks like something everybody uses. On Bob's transmitter, he has installed the throttle "detent" which makes his throttle stay wherever he sets it, mine have the center off "dead man's" throttle in place. I thought about changing to the way Bob uses, but am now familiar with the spring throttle and matter of fact prefer it since sometimes I get "tripped out" on something and take my thumb off the throttle-the loco stops, keeping from hitting something or taking a dive off the layout. That's just my way.

Bob is showing the way to do things, he is an innovater and true modeler. I thank him for bringing his work to us all.

           Woodie 

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Hey all,

If you have the new August issue of Model Rairoader turn to page 69.
Radio control is talked about in a article titled "where will the hobby go from here?

Larry T.

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If I could recharge with track power....

 

It would be a better option. :)

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Some of the  large scale guys have installed plug in charger sockets on their trains to recharge their batteries without taking the batteries out of the train. If they can do it so can we, just need to find smaller components to do the same thing.

Woodie,  can you use one transmitter to control more than one loco? Or do you have to buy a separate transmitter for each loco?
     
Larry T.
 

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Bob-you could recharge batteries with a "charging track" perhaps in front of a coaling station or water tower. The loco would have to be oriented for the correct polarity in the charging circuit and you would need to keep the wheel pickups to transfer the charge. You could install a dpdt switch in the battery circuit so when you pull up for "fuel", you could switch the power routing. I suppose that you could have a trickle charge on the rails of the layout and run while charging, but wiring the track is something r/c is supposed to do away with! I do know of one fellow who did not disable the track pickups on his loco and fried his board when he turned on the power pack to run a dc loco. I believe that for the safest and best operation, the loco pickups should be disabled and then you can run on a dc or dcc layout with no problem. It would be nice if an r/c expert could chime in on this subject and put forth some ideas. The Lithium batteries I am using provide hours of service before needing a charge and don't lose the charge even if it is a couple of months between operating. Also, Lithiums don't have a "memory" like other rechargables, but they are costly. My batteries are built into the locomotives and when I need to charge them, I do it on the workbench with no disassembly. How long do these batteries last? I will probably not need to change them in my lifetime so the cost becomes manageable.

Hope this "clears" something up, maybe it will spark more research in eather case, discussion is great!

            Woodie

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Larry-I imagine you can run more than one loco with one transmitter. Bob is working on that and maybe he has some ideas. As for me, I have 4 locos and they are all on the same frequency but since I am one guy (engineer), I only run one at a time keeping the others turned off. When I want to change locos, I turn one off(get down out of the cab) and get another loco turned on (climb up into another loco) and get to work. I have a friend who can run 2 locos at the same time by himself with 2 transmitters, but that ain't me! I can only control one at a time, maybe that's my disadvantage, but I believe that only one engineer can run one loco at a time-in the "real" world. Whatever you do, have fun doing it!!!

PS-my railcars run off different freqs so if I have visitors, they can run a loco and I can follow with a railcar-just in case the dadgum loco starts a "fire" along the way!!!

    Woodie

 

 

     

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Another question comes to mind.... if I just want to lean back and watch the trains chase their tails, how can I do that with the spring loaded controls of the transmitters.

Larry T.

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Larry,

 

The transmitter I have has a little ratchet you can add that changes it from spring loaded to "stepped" positions.

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Larry-as Bob said, there's a little rachet & spring thing that can be removed and the throttle will stay in one place. I believe Bob is working on a way to use the steering outputs on the LOSI boards to control another loco on the same frequency with the same transmitter!!!! Oh Bob-have you figured this out yet???? There is a tiny r/c helicopter that has a very tiny 3.7 volt Lithium battery that is about the size of a dime and can be recharged 1000's of times! I have used one of these in a little r/c bulldozer I built and it can be hidden in small models. There is a larger battery for a bigger copter that can be used in small spaces but I haven't messed with this one yet. Here's a space saving idea from my friend Joe Bostick for guys using 9 volt alkaline batteries-take the metal cover off the power cells, remove the snap hook ups on the top, solder wires to where the snaps were and install. Doing this saves about 1/4 inch length and maybe 1/8 inch width. The battery still works like it should and lasts as long as it does. I used to get the little 3 volt Lithium camera batteries (CR-2) to run my early r/c stuff and I was getting 6 months or more on one set of 2. I ran my locos in several shows on the same batteries. I have found that my larger 1:32n20 locos need the "oomph" that the rechargables provide, but 9 volts or the camera batteries is just fine for most HO or On30 stuff. Be on the look out for other small batteries, technology changes almost daily!

                     Woodie

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I have no idea what I am looking at, but these batteries look very small

http://powerburg.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008824222528/pdtl/Button-cell-battery/1001241930/Tiny-Ni-Mh-Rechargeable-Button-Cells.htm

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I haven't worked on the 2nd receiver yet. I'm getting ready for a trip so it might be a week or two before I get back to it.

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I have no idea what I am looking at, but these batteries look very small

 

They look like watch batteries Don....... You know the kind of watch that has the little Solar collector that constantly recharges as a trickle to extend battery life.

Similar batteries are also used in the Laser Level market/Calculator market and Yes, even the Lighted Fishing Bobber market :)

How About Cell Phone Battery Packs??? Seems to me they hold quite a charge and last for years. The smaller cell phone battery packs would easily fit in a Shay climax or porter, particullarly if you had an all weather cab..........they could certainly be made to fit in a shorty tender also.

Heres an interesting tidbit on batteries
Service Life means "how many charge cycles will the battery last before it won't charge anymore". Go to our "Battery Guide" page to see how the chemistry a battery uses affects its service life. All newer cellphones use Lithium Ion (Li-Ion) chemistry, or the more expensive Lithium Polymer (Li-Poly). Newer chemistries will take more charge cycles, so while more expensive, they are usually a better value.

 

Heres an example of an inexpensive (comparably) cell phone battery..Lithium Ion that has over 3 hours of talk time...note the battery size of 73mm x 45 mm x 10mm









Touchpoint tp1100 Battery - Standard, Li-ION, 950mah Details:

Cell Phone Talk Time:
Up to 220 minutes

Cell Phone Standby Time:
Up to 110 hours

This Battery Replaces:
LGLI-AAEL

Battery Type:
LiION

Battery Capacity:
950 mAh

Weight:
40 grams

Size:
73mm x 45mm

Battery Thickness:
10 mm

Battery Color:
Black

Battery SKU:
BTLG-0510-ALIN02

Retail Price:
$36.95

Our LOW Price:
$18.95

Order Qty: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
 


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The little nickel batteries are the same used in many rechargable toy items like tanks and cars but they don't deliver sustained voltage or amperage that we would need for model railroad motors. The cell phone batteries would be a better choice-they are Lithiums and can be recharged over 1000 times! The same technology is being used in electric model aircraft, they supply high discharge and long life and are small and light. If I could figure out the complicated photo bucket thing, I would send a photo...but alas...If anybody is interested in photos of these things and size comparisons, drop me a line and I will send an uncomplicated attachment photo of what I'm talking about. As I said, the Lithiums are a bit costly, but you will probably never need to replace one. Keep searching, there are many batteries out there that can run a loco and be hidden in the cab, etc.

      Woodie-mogollonry@sbcglobal.net

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Woodie.
Could you please check your email address. My emails can not be delivered.
Think I paid my account
Don

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Happy Fourth from us in the Big D. Now it's time to get back to "work" and get some stuff finished so I can start some more. This Sunday night at 9PM Central Time in the US, there will be a live chat about r/c going on. I look forward to corresponding with everybody and hope that we can get some info out and have some fun. We will be talking about radio control, but who knows what will happen! Just like they say on the radio-BE THERE OR BE SQUARE- 9PM Central time on Sunday night. To quote the comedian George Carlin-"it's 9PM in Chicago. 8PM in Denver, and 6:47 in Burbank"

            Woodie C Greene-Mogollon Railway, Los Pinos & Madera RR, Boquillas Prismoidal Railroad(monorail), and several nearly bankrupt mining concerns 

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Woody, looking forward to the chat....:bow:will take 1/2 bottle of No Doz & drink a pot of Columbian Coffee to be sure I make it..:cool:

Any Questions on that Photo thing?

I'm keeping my eye out for R/C stuff at yard sales etc. We have a Big Swap Meet coming up in a few weeks that has a HUGE Flea MArket...........I expect to find what I need there for certain...............Now its time to sharpen up the ol Handlaid track skills and get some test track laid!!!:thumb:

Tileguy
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Willowgully wrote: All,
      I was just at Radio Shack and bought a little 1:32 scale radio control Lamborghini model car on sale for $9.95 (was $19.95). The guy said it had speed control but didn't know how fine the control might be. The car also has forward and reverse. For under 10 bucks I figure I couldn't go too far wrong.
     After I open the little car I'll have a better idea of its usefulness.
If nothing else it will be fun to race the car around for a while.

I'll keep you all informed...... Larry T.



hows this coming along Larry?

Incidently, I just checked out the Radio Shack site. They have several other cars but they sort of pair them.These 2 are stocked in most Radio Shack stores

Lambo's mate is a red ferrari

Radio Shack Tech Specs:

Yellow Lamborghinni is a 49 MHz receiver

Red Ferrari is a 27MHz receiver

Last edited on Thu Jul 5th, 2007 03:13 pm by Tileguy

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Go for it! I'm not sure about the "fineness" of the speed control, but it is certainly worth trying. Remember to install this (or any other system) in a well-broken in and good running locomotive, the r/c won't make up for lousy mechanisms or motors. The Radio Shack cars are on 2 frequencies so you can race them without interference. The 27 MHZ range is what r/c car racers use, although their equipment is more sophisticated than the RS cars. 49 MHZ is not used by "standard" r/c stuff like planes, cars, & boats. Somebody got onto me about using air frequencies for my trains, I know the "rules" and besides, air r/c boards have NO reverse, planes don't use reverse. Air r/c now uses fm and that's what I wish I was using. AM is sometimes fraught with interference from household electrical stuff and other "spurious emissions" but so far, I can live with it. I only need to control my locos from 2 maybe 3 feet away, so I keep the transmitter antenna down and haven;t worried about the receiver antenna, as long as the thing works, that's all I care about!  When I was in a modular On30 "club", I was able to control locos from a long distance, but I like to watch the wheels click across the rails from nearby.

I never said that any of this stuff is cheap to do, but when you consider the advantages of r/c over other forms of power, the cost is minimal. Besides, if I was into dcc, I would be spending 2-300 bucks(maybe more) for the basic power unit, if I wanted sound(which I don't), then I would spend 50-over 100 bucks for the board, then I would need all the wire for the layout, all the molex plugs to connect the wires, a couple of brite boys, and a bottle of Jack Daniels to make me feel better when I had a short or the track needed cleaning, or when I had to read an 82 page manual to operate my stinkin' train! Enough of this soapbox, I have some stuff to mess with on this rainy Dallas night. Ya'll take care.

             Woodie

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These guys are uniquely positioned to make something happen here on a manufacturing scale IF they are sharp enough to see opportunity.

http://www.scientific.com.hk/aboutus.php

They sell G scale battery operated train sets AND R/C cars in various scales on a Mass Market basis

ToysR us, Target, etc etc

Will they see the potential? I sent them an email, we'll see if it interests them.

Imagine if they decided to manufacture a simple conversion Kit alone.......Or even decided to start manufacturing an On30 Set to test market.

:Hmm:the possibilities are mind boggeling!!! :thumb:

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Man, I wish somebody would make small scale r/c railroad equipment. The technology is there to make even N scale r/c!!!  Don't believe it? My buddy Joe put receiver & batteries in a couple of "head end" passenger cars and wired this up to a Kato F unit and the train ran!!! Now, he got p.o'ed because his N scale club in effect said "that's nice, but..." when confronted with cutting edge technology. Joe is now into On30 r/c and uses 9 volt alkaline batteries to run his stuff and has a ball. He's the guy who can handle 2 transmitters at once and run without problems! I can barely manage to run one loco at a time myself! Yep, it would be great if some forward-thinking manufacturer would take the plunge and make an affordable r/c system for small scale(o scale down to even Z!!), it would change the landscape of model railroading. Yes, I know I'm rabid about this, but since I went wireless, I have changed from just running trains to actually operating trains.

I really appreciate the opportunity to be able to rant and rave about this subject, I believe in it so. Just imagine how many kids might love to mess with model trains if all they had to do is put batteries in the locomotive and transmitter and run a train across reverse loops, passing sidings, wyes, yards, crossovers, and who knows what else with no concerns or problems. Who knows, model railroading might become what it used to be-fun!

See you all Sunday night at 9PM central time in the US. We'll talk about r/c and generally act outrageous!

                         Woodie

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Just imagine how many kids might love to mess with model trains if all they had to do is put batteries in the locomotive and transmitter and run a train across reverse loops, passing sidings, wyes, yards, crossovers, and who knows what else with no concerns or problems. Who knows, model railroading might become what it used to be-fun!

 

I couldnt agree more Woody.......When confronted with the electronics & Wiring involved in Model Railroading, Kids are lost and Many Fathers go White as a sheet at the thought of having to build even a small model RR with enough complexity to keep a kids interest up.

Buying a simple circle and watching trains go around is NOT going to keep a child interested for long............BUT, a miniature transportation system with all the imagination a kid has can create a lifetime of interest.

Getting rid of the wiring issue's almost creates awhole new hobby........One that doesnt involve hours of backbreaking work Under the layout Wiring in Feeders and Buss lines, reverse loops and chasing shorts........

Portable suddenly become Far easier.

Lift out bridges for an around the room plan a cinch

Turntables do not need all that fancy wiring

The list goes On & ON & ON of PRO's

Realistically, there are a few drawbacks and R/C wouldnt be all things to all people, But how many are actually going to get to a point where they are interfacing their Model RR with a computer?

Not Too Many!!!

No More Block Control for analog wiring

R/C and Digital technology can STILL be incorporated together IF a manufacturer got involved.

Train Controller can still send signals to a chip to tell it to Ring a bell or blow a horn.

Synchro Sound could Still be used and turned on and off IF battery Sizes could handle Operation and sound for say 3 hours without recharging.

There are a ton of things that CAN be done..........its all possible with the right manufacturer and the right Vision!!

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Tileguy-you're right, the pros outweigh the cons. I have considered the con part and have decided not to worry about them! Someday, things will change...hopefully for the better. I know I can't persuade everybody to give r/c a try, I have an old friend who has built a large HO layout using 1970's technology (dc and blocks) and that's the way he likes it so I won't pester him about this. He has decided that a switcher with r/c would be nice, then he can let the local rip around the layout while he switches cars. He knows that the only thing he would have to watch out for is being caught out on the mainline when the big train comes through. Seems like the real railroads have this worry also!

It has stopped raining here in Dallas and the heat is on the way....finally! My railroad was made to be run in the hot Texas sun so I can't wait to set up and switch the mines while I commune with Mother Nature. You know, r/c has freed me to be able to build a sectional layout that can be set up and running in just a few minutes. Now I just have to remember where I keep the sunblock....

                    Woodie

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As a newbie to the hobby the prospect of using R/C appeals to me much more than any other system I've read about. If it's just a matter of getting the components to fit into small equipment I'm sure that with the will somebody is going to figure out a way. :Hmm:

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My railroad was made to be run in the hot Texas sun so I can't wait to set up and switch the mines while I commune with Mother Nature. You know, r/c has freed me to be able to build a sectional layout that can be set up and running in just a few minutes.
 

Pretty tough to find a better backdrop than Mother Nature at her best..........I guess your RR's motto isnt Come RAIN or shine Through WIND & HAIL the trains must go through eh :moose::moose::moose:

I'm poking through the Texas Outlaws Module drawings & Plans even now seeing what I can use from them or adapt to my needs from them.

I thought the Velcro fasteners a pretty unique Idea:thumb:

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While you're looking at the Outlaws files, there may still be some of my pix there, also some of my old On30 railroad, the Cedar Tap RR. I built the Cedar Tap to use with the Outlaws setups and most of it was un-wired because I got into r/c while I was building it. I gave the layout (7 modules) to a couple of members and later overheard a couple of guys griping about the lack of "proper" wiring on the mods. It just goes to show that no good deed goes unpunished! Of course I never had any problems with the line, I didn't need "proper" or improper wiring and ran many trains without a hitch. Hmmmmm.

Remember that Sunday night at 9PM we will have a little live session dealing with r/c. I hope to hear about what everybody else is doing, I have told some of the local r/c crazies and they will be hanging out for the festivities. Some of you fellows across the pond and down under may have to get up in the middle of the night for this, maybe sometime I can get something going in the middle of the day here so you can get in on the discussion. Please let me know what you think.

What is the future of r/c for small scale trains? It is unlimited and it is time (rather maybe behind the time) for this advance in the hobby. Yes, I am a fanatic, but if I hadn't stumbled onto this adaptave technology for my trains, I was close to going back to working on old MG's and Triumphs and forgetting about what I have loved for most of my life. It hasn't been easy, well the r/c installation is easy, the path has been crowded with nitpickers and nay sayers and guys who have that "can't do it" attitude. I am glad I have done what I believe is the future and all those sourpusses can just get under their layouts and trace short circuits! The time has come to throw away those old Brite Boys and use the old power packs as boat anchors. There-that may get somebody fired up!

                   Woodie

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We have tried different time slots in an attempt to work in with the world time zones, even to the point of having different sessions. Alas it did not work. Europe and the UK miss out,for  those of us down under it falls at midday on the Monday, not good for some but we get by
We have even tried transcripts of the discussion, that was a bad move. it was disjointed and was not at all helpful.
Look on the bright side, its daylight here and we don't need batteries to see what we are doing.
As you would have gathered I am DCC, spent my money so going to use it even if it kills me.  BUT that does not mean I am not interested in what you are doing in R/C. .
So I shall just be a looker and learner until such time as I see the light

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I gave the layout (7 modules) to a couple of members and later overheard a couple of guys griping about the lack of "proper" wiring on the mods.

7 Free modules and all they had to do was the wiring and they Griped...This is a very Sad statement but even sadder is Ive seen many of this type in our hobby......Free isnt enough, it must be Free AND PERFECT!!!

 the path has been crowded with nitpickers and nay sayers and guys who have that "can't do it" attitude.

 

Nothing new here...every advance in the hobby has dealt with those same people......justwhen you think theyve all died off :old dude:.... a new crop of them comes around :):):)

The time has come to throw away those old Brite Boys and use the old power packs as boat anchors.

 

Lets not get too hasty there Woody........I was thinking that those step rheostats in them ol MRC power packs May come in very handy......In fact, The entire case may be able to be modified to hold the transmitting boards, antenna etc.

Just need to have an electronics Guru type look into the meat of the matter.......Take an Old MRC 1300 or 1320 for example.(20.00 units new)..........These would make a pretty nice lil RC controller dont you think ;)

Not sure i'd want to gut a Tech4 260, but the lil Tech 1320 Ive got I would!!!:thumb:

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I know I come down hard on those who blast me for messing with the "devil's work" of r/c...the pioneers of dcc put up with that for many years before the general model railroading public accepted something new. One of the earliest is Kieth Gutteriez, owner of CVP Products. Kieth struggled for many years promoting dcc and listening to massive disbelief but he stayed there and now has one of the oldest dcc companies around. CVP has a nice r/c system but the phusical size makes it too big for smaller scales-he's working on something smaller. You see, it takes loads of money to provide new products (like r/c) and the tiny boards will have to be made by the tens of thousands and assembled by robotics and that takes money-lots of it. So until that day, little r/c car boards will just have to suffice. Maybe the fact that I am using technology from another hobby makes some upeset, I just don't know. However, the first time I ran a locomotive on radio, I was hooked and began wondering why everybody wouldn't want to have the same fun I was having. There will always be a place for dcc, just like there is still a hardcore dc fraternity. There is room for everybody. If you could see some of the "off-line" and off color comments I have received-"you are ruining the hobby", "just shut up and go away", and "&$%^ you and your #$*&^(@ radio control", you might understand why I sometimes get a little (or a lot) testy. Good grief-it's a hobby and we are basically playing with toy trains! Now when somebody figures out how to control trains with mental telepathy, I will join Mr Spock and Scotty and get rid of all my antique r/c stuff. As Dr McCoy once said about old timey Earth-"Jim, they're all barbarians down here!" Yep!

                 Woodie-see you at 9PM Central tonight(Sunday)

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Eventually R/C will become more or less accepted as have other controversial changes/advances in model railroading.
For example; back in the sixties MR ran a article about model railroading in Japan. The Japanese were building modules and assembling them in public places for show. They were also using the helix to go from one level to another.  MR receved a lot of heat for "wasting space" on these wacky ideas.
Another example: when Garden Railways mag. ran a series of articles titled "Second generation Garden Railroading" (in reality it was about adding more detail to the trains and scratch building bridges and buildings) they receved a bunch of complaints about being "forced" to junk everything and start over.
Don't these people have any free will, why do they feel so threatened?
North Americans in particular seem to be very suspicious of any new idea, you know what I mean....
IF IT'S NEW IT MUST BE BAD.

Woodie, I don't understand how some people can feel so threatened by R/C that they would "flame" you that way just for talking about it.
No one is forcing anyone to switch to R/C or DCC or to build modules or double deck layouts with a helex, so why all the fear!

I don't get it!

Larry T.

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Tileguy, when and where is the swap meet you mentioned a while back?
I have a bunch of "G" scale to sell, no demand out here in Rapid City.

Larry T.

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Grand Rapids Mn Car Show/Flea Market & Swap Meet...............Probobly see 60,000 + come through in 2 days.

 

It is not a Train Swap Meet but there are lots of Folks Buying a little of everything.

You need to pay for space but 1 table wouldnt be much.......Bring more than just g scale stuff.......Bring all kinds of junk...Pack a trailer LOL

Its a good time with over 380 vendors last year. We used to set up there ( Niki's Parents had an Indoor spot for 20 years and it took the m and Us to fill it up the last few they had it........They finally gave it up as they were getting too old.

It was a Prime location in the main building.....1st booth on the right coming in the main door..PRIME!!!!!

There are 5 or 6 LARGE buildings total Plus a dozen smaller ones and 1/3 of the parking Lot has vendors Plus the hillside area has another 100 vendors or so.

Its HUGE and only 1 time per year!!!!

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WOW! this has really taken off. :thumb: I finally got my Mogul up and running Sunday. I found out that the old wide-band equipment is not compatible with the new narrow-band receivers, :doh: I ended up buying new crystals and borrowing a radio. The response is good and the performance is probably closer to prototype than I usually run which is a good thing. I'm using some old Ni-Cad batteries from the Tamiya 1/24 scale R/C cars we ran years ago. They're only 7.2 volts but the engine runs well and has the power to pull a full train ( six weighted box cars and a caboose) without a problem. It's realy nice being able to run around wyes and reversing loops and not have to throw a bunch of electrical swithes. :Woohoo: Now all I have to do is decide what style of batteries I want to run and where to put them. The little Li-Po packs will fit nicely in the oil bunker on the tender of the Mogul, the Porter will be a different story, a small trailing work car or tank car for the receiver and a box or hopper for the battery. And there's still the little rechargeable 9 volt that will fit in a lot of small spaces. :asm:  Thanks for getting this stirred up. I really wasn't looking forward to wiring the DCC and all the other stuff that goes with it. Anybody need an unused DCC set up? :cool:

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Robert-welcome to the future! As you now know, this is all experimental and it may be quite some time until a manufacturer makes small scale r/c available. That's their problem. Have fun and be smug in the fact that you don't have any more problems(at least with wiring!) Write with any updates, gripes, questions, etc. I am busy running my trains outside, I love being able to operate without bs and brite boys!

           Woodie

PS-try the THUNDER POWER line of li-po batteries, they work great and you will only need to buy one for your loco. they won't die out in our lifetimes!

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Hi all,

Read this series of e-mails from bottom to top in that order..
I have been "talking" with the guy at SIMPLY 7/8 th's locos about their new radio control unit.
It seems this co. has already jumped on the R/C band wagon and is offering their new locos with R/C installed.

Larry T.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#3

Hi Larry, You are correct!, this is a simple hand held transmitter
not unlike the one used on vehicles, ours has three buttons-
forward, reverse and emergency stop. speed is selected by clicking
the required direction button, to reduce speed click the opposite
direction button. Come un-stuck press the emergency stop button.
The reciever dimensions are 55mm longx 20mm x 20mm. There are
two  colour coded wires either end, two to motor and two to battery
isolator switch.  Prices to follow shortly.
 
Thanks for your enquiry, regards Mick. 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#2

Hi Mick, I must have missed something along the way..... what is this Key Fob
remote control unit? Is it a radio control unit for on-board control of the trains?
If so, what are its dimensions, price etc.

Larry T.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#1
Hi Folks- Good news from our electronics dept.
> The new Key Fob remote control unit is working perfectly.
>
> We now have our own all singing and dancing micro chip.
>
> As soon as 'Baby Sim' arrives with the control fitted I will
> post Trev's mail address and anyone interested in the unit
> can contact him directly.
>
> All Simply 7/8th's loco's will be fitted with this control
> from now on, manual control by request.(who needs it?)
>
Happy modelling, Mick.
>

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THis 7/8 scale radio gear looks(sounds) interesting. The board seems reasonably small, but it this radio control or remotre control? There is a difference. Remote control is akin to "tv clicker" technology and the "transmitter" has to be aimed directly at the receiver, radio control can control over long distances and the transmitter doesn't need to be aimed at the receiver.  The little Kyosho car r/c units I use are 20 x 20 x 40 MM and the removable crystal(part of the 20mm height) can be relocated anywhere making the board about 10mm thick. It's great to hear that more folks are getting into r/c, a forward-thinking manufacturer could reduce the board size to that of an N scale dcc board, there are new li-poly batteries that could fit into N scale. These are marketed by TEAM LOSI for their Micro-T racers. The 7.4 volt lithiums are about as big as a postage stamp and maybe 10mm thick. Keep looking at new stuff, we are experimenting here and anything (almost) goes!

              Woodie 

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Woodie,

Here's a questions for you. What differance, if any, does brushed ESC VS brushless ESC make?

Bob

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Bob-brushed esc is a speed control for motors with brushes like all we use in model railroading. Brushless esc is for brushless motors which (to my knowledge) can't be used in our trains. You know whaqt a "regular" dc motor is like, a brushless motor is similar to the old rotary motors in WW1 airplanes, the prop shaft is part of the crankcase and the pistons are mounted to the firewall, the motor is like that, in other words, the motor case rotates with the prop and the "commutator" is stationary. Is that a good confusing answer?? A good brushed edsc would work for model trains, provided it has reverse. One of these small esc's and a micro receiver would take little space in a loco and the 2 boards could be separated and wired together thereby "making more space" available in the loco. How's that for an answer?

                    Woodie

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OK mighty Grasshopper. Here's your next question. The RC guys always ask "How many turns"? How do we answer that?

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Bob-that question concerns r/c car motors. The less number of turns, the better. They want the electric motors to go FAST while model railroaders are concerned with S L O W motors. In a Sagami motor, there may be hundreds of turns. More is better! The r/c car guys look for motors with big honkin' wire wound just a few times around the commutator. In r/c electric planes, to push a propeller, "can" motors like we know need a gearbox to provide the speed & torque, otherwise they use brushless motors(as do some car guys) which have the speed & torque so they don't need gearboxes. We should be glad that we have nice smooth small motors that don't use much juice and turn relatively slowly. Do you remember the Athearn Hustler? Way back then, we probably would have liked a fast motor when we raced Hustlers. All we needed was 2- 6 foot sections of flex track, one power pack connected to both tracks, 2 Athearn Hustlers, and a couple of pillows at the end of the tracks. Guess what we did next???

               Woodie-ain't racing no more

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Not RC Woodie, but your comment about racing hustlers reminded me of back in my wasted youth, I laid Lionel "standard" gage track the whole lenght of the house and put my 408E at one end. Kept jacking the transformer voltage up, trying for a new land speed record. Then two transformers in series- still not fast enough. Then my widdle warped mind had the solution! Straight 110V from the wall outlet! Ready, set, CONTACT! Loco jumped straight up in the air about a foot, and fell with a hell of a thud on its side, the driving wheels seeming to take forever to stop. After this event, the darn thing still worked OK. Now try THAT with battery power!


Herb:old dude:

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Herb-you got me there! However, the rechargable Li-Poly batteries I use CAN sometimes explode! These are the same things that smoked Dell computers occasionally. Actually, if one is careful and doesn't try to fast charge Lithiums, there's no problem. I have seen a 3 cell, 11 volt battery go nuclear and melt down. Whatta sight that was, probably like your Lionel loco shooting up and down with the wheels spinning! You know, some of the early electric trains ran off 110, you put the train on the track, plugged the cord in, and ran for cover or to get a candle started since the power line got fried. Ahhh, them was the days! The old Hustler races were in conjunction with the Model Motoring slot car craze. If the car guys could have fun going fast, then model railroaders should also. I know a fellow who actually has an old Athearn Hustler that he put a propeller out from the hood. When he ran this thing at a local club, everybody was dumbfounded. The loco sure found places where the ballast wasn't glued down and cleaned the cobwebs from the "hidden" staging tracks. But then, there was the clearance problem with the propeller, it took out some loading docks and almost caused some guy's brass Challenger to hit the concrete canyon. Needless to say, my friend Bob is no longer welcome at that club....or any others in town.

          Woodie

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Woodie,

Glad to have found you again!!!

An update!  I've got 6 R/C projects underway.

1.  Sn42:  A Losi board and 9-volt battery going into the back of my Matchbox Acorn Moving van powered by an old style Bachmann GE 44-tonner power truck.

2.  Sn42: A Losi board and 9-volt battery going into the tender of a Barry McClellan On30 to Sn42 4-4-0 conversion on an IHC chassis.

3.  S standard gauge:  A Kyosho board going into one of my hardcoupled pair of boxcabs (or juice jacks) bashed from a pair of AF caboose bodies.  They are on separated power trucks of an AF GEEP that had been remotored with a can motor by SnS.

4.  S standard guage:  A Kysoho board going into my Bachmann On30 Mogul that has been regauged and bashed into a Wannabe USRA 0-6-0 using a pic of the EBT's #6 as reference.

5.  Halfinch-42 inch gauge (Hn42):  My son's old Futaba radio with a tugboat ESC going into a reworked Hartland-Locomotive-Works Mighty Mack Switcher.

6.  Hn42:  An AristoCraft Trackside Trainengineer and batteries going into a tender for my Bachmann 0-4-0 Paul Bunyan Porter.

So far all the stuff has been gathered up and now I hope to get some of it working!

More later!

 

 

 

 

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Don Munsey-excellent news!! Have you donated your antique power packs to a museum yet???!!! Actually, I still have one power pack so I can run-in mechanisms before I fix them with r/c and I still do some custom painting and building for a couple of guys who still use dc so I guess I'll keep the old thing.  Keep up the experimentation and let me know what's happening. Here's some news (unexpected)...the group that I am no longer a member of (uno who) want me to do a...gulp...r/c clinic at the Fort Worth & Plano train shows!!! There must be some kind of alignment in the planets or maybe the moon is full, but how about that?? Maybe you can get over to the Plano show (in Jan.) so we can jabber about choo choo's.

           Woodie

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Woody,

The last I heard burnt crow was selling for about $1000 a kilo!!!

Let me know when it is, I want a front row seat!

GBG!!

 

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One day I am going to be down your way Woodie................My son lives in McKinney area ( In fact he just got hired on to the Melissa Police Department...unfortunately he is not much into trains...He does like the Slot track though LOL )

I'll be sure to get in touch when I'm out that direction!!!

Todd

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Update on my RC projects.

I’m using a Futaba 2 stick, 2 channel radio with a Losi board and a 9-volt battery.  The Losi uses channel 1. I wanted to see if I could run a second train on channel 2.  Woodie suggested that I add a second Losi board and use the servo connection. That didn’t work. BUT, I took the original receiver that came with the Futaba and added an ESC (electronic speed controller) and used channel 2. I’m using a 9-volt battery on that one as well. Works like a charm. So I’m running two trains with one radio and I can run them both at the same time (sort of).

The whole set up ran about a hundred bucks. 

Bob

Last edited on Sun Jul 22nd, 2007 07:15 pm by Trebor

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Tileguy wrote: One day I am going to be down your way Woodie................My son lives in McKinney area
C'mon down...Todd...I've been a Mckinney area resident for 35yrs.

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Bob-that's great news about being able to control 2 locos with the same transmitter. I knew you would get this figured out! I have enough to do running 1 train at a time, so I may not get as far with this, but it would be cool to be able to operate 2 locos without changing crystals or turning one loco off while I run the other. The r/c guys tell me that not everything is compatable, but so far I seem to have lucked out with what I have. I am running with an old JR transmitter and a Kyosho transmitter which I tore apart and put into a Radio Shack box so it doesn't look like Captain Kirk's space pistol. All my Mogollon Railway locos and railcars (6 pieces) use the Kyosho boards and li-poly batteries, but my Bachmann On30 2-8-0 has a Losi board and 9 volt battery. I can't run the consol on my layout because of it's wide cylinders which take out scenery and long wheelbase which dislikes my roller coaster track. I still have my old On30 4-6-0 which has 2 3 volt camera batteries and Kyosho board-this loco still runs with batteries I put in it close to 2 years ago!!! Must be some kind of record.

Well, the weather in Dallas is great for outdoor trains, so the layout is up and running and I'm a happy man. It sure is nice to not have to worry about cleaning track but the dried leaves falling on the right of way is another matter. That brings up the story about the Mogollon's bug blower-a flatcar with a motor driving a propeller. The crews use it to blow crickets from the track but it works great for dried leaves. I think I have too much time on my hands.

                      Woodie

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Bob,

Neat idea - If I change the ESC in my Mighty Mack to channel 2 - I can drive it with the right joy stick, leaving the left for my next LOSI board!

 

Woodie,

What's invovled in getting rid of the "Captain Kirk" phaser throttles?

Don

 

 

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Don-first you need to get a Radio Shack "equipment box" which is about the size of a normal hand held throttle case. Then it gets to be some work. First take the donor transmitter apart carefully, noting what is where. To make a single stick throttle, you need to remove the "trigger" on the speed control and drill a hole to accept (on mine) a 1/8 brass rod as the lever. This sounds more complicated than it is. When satisfied with the lever action of the speed control, you will have to lay out what will protrude through the box cover. An elongated slot for the lever, some slots for the various switches-determine which switches you use for the speed control and don't forget the throttle trim pot which needs a hole. The antenna hole is drilled in the top, there's a hole for the crystal somewhere and the biggest change is to install a 9 volt battery clip which now powers the throttle. The layout of the parts is the big thing, cutting holes & slots in the box is the trickiest part. Heck-I need to send photos but am still bamboozled by the photobucket rules for attachments. I am working on a "website" now that I can just send an address and everybody can click on it to see the pix. Maybe I will get all this photo stuff cyphered soon. Anyway, all the stuff from the donor transmitter plus the battery fits into the new box. Go to the Shack and see what they have, this little box is a "normal" stock item for them. Of course if you need help in the store, the folks there don't know beans unless you want a jambox or a cell phone so you may be on your own. On the other side, Joe Bostick loves the Capt Kirk devices and can run 2 trains with 2 transmitters-one in each hand. I believe Joe has 2 brains, I don't have that capability! Send me a note off line & I will reply with a pix or so to show what I am talking about.

     Woodie

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Hi Woodie

Found LiPo batteries at the Thunderpower site, but the only charger they offer is $55, and looks to me to be a field charger, that is, a quick charge between races. In one of your posts, you said that you charge on the bench, which I take to mean some sort of a more gentle charging rate. Is there some sort of a formula (like 1/10 the amh) to use as a guide for charging rate? Is charging at a low rate time sensitive- is there some sort of a "float" charge rate? Do the same charging rules apply to Li and LiPo?

Also looked in Digikey cat., and besides Lithium, they have Manganese Lithium, Niobium Titanium Lithium, and Vanadium Pentoxide Lithium- but no LiPo. of the four above only the Lithium  is offered in useful sizes, the other three are mostly "coin" types. Is one of the above LiPo under another name?  From what they tell about each, an electronic dumbass (ME) can"t tell much difference.

Now I guess that I'll have to dig out the O scale Reading RR 0-4-0 that I was building 20+ years ago and finish it. At the time, I was concerned that with the receiver, and a servo to work a pot to work a transistor speed control the was too little room for enough NiCads to give any usefull run time.

Just look what you've done!

Herb:old dude:

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Howdy Herb-the charger you may want is what I have, it's a CELECTRA by E FLIGHT. This little guy charges Li-Poly batteries in 1, 2, & 3 cell configurations. This charger costs about 45 bucks and you will need a 12 volt dc power supply (a great use for the old power pack!!). It is very simple to use and can charge from 250 MAH up to 2 A. I use the 250 MAH setting for all my batteries which are built into the locomotives. I use the Thunder Power batteries , they have several configurations and outputs. Now, I don't remember what the ratings are, but an example-my 0-4-2T built from a Bachmann On30 loco has a 7.4 volt, 2 cell battery in the cab roof. Remember also that I am building in 1:32 narrow gauge so things have a mite more room. The Porter runs for probably 10 hours per charge and that is going up and down my 10-12% grades with ore cars. My Shay (again, Bachman On30) uses an 11.1 volt 3 cell battery and runs about the same length of time. I prefer to use slow charging, the batteries last much longer without heating up. Car and plane guys want to run & run again, we want to slowly run and when the engine needs charging, we've probably had more than enough running for the day. If you were doing shows, then the charge would probably last all day plus some. Motor draw probably affects discharge rate (duh?) so good low-draw motors help out. Also, a mechanism free of binds is mandatory. My friend Mudge has an old Mantua HO 2-6-2 with board & 9 volt alkaline battery in the tender and it runs great with the old open-frame motor. Your 0-4-0 will probably love to be running, especially with no problems from r/c. I advise that you disable the track pick up system, this can cause problems (read FRY) the board if there is power across the rails! Let me know how this works out.

                Woodie

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Thanks Woodie- you have been most helpful!

Herb:old dude:

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Woodie.................PICTURES BUDDY........... PICTURES!!!!!!!

1 picture is worth a thousand words................Just think of all the typing I'm trying to save you......Less typing, more time to convert trains to R/C and Chip Scaley Digital cars :):):)

I'll help you post them.............I'll even post them for you even if need be.:thumb:

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Woodie the rescue!

Since I'm using a boxcar to hold all the electronics and batteries, I needed some sort of small connector that could easily be connected and disconnected. I stopped by Woodie's shop and he had just the right thing. A package of Miniatronics 2 pin Micro-Mini Connectors.

 
Thanks for the help Woodie.

http://www.miniatronics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc

Last edited on Sat Jul 28th, 2007 07:39 am by Trebor

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Some of you who have been around the other forums might recognise this critter. It was the first thing I did in On30 so it's fitting that it became part of my first fully complete RC combo.



 

Last edited on Sun Jul 29th, 2007 01:11 pm by Trebor

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Bob-EXCELLENT!!! You had better watch this critter, I might sneak over and relieve you of it!!!

        Woodie

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Hi Woodie,

I have Vol 6, #5 - Oct/Nov 2004 LID with your article in it I have read it several times and have read all the posts here and at the FS32NGModelrail-yahoo group in reference to R/C Control for model trains.

I made a list of what I think I need and called my local Hobby Town. I buy some of my train stuff from them. They have a big R/C Dept. and I told the R/C guy what I wanted to do and gave him my "stuff" list. They have everything on the list that I need to try my first R/C train.

1. Futaba 2 ch/2 stick receiver about $50
2. Proportional Foward & Reverse about $40
3. Battery 8.4 volt about $20
4. Charger - about $25

Do I need to buy an R/C car for the motor or can I use a small train motor? I would like to use a small train motor but if the first one would be easier with an R/C Car motor they sell a Bahi VW that is about 1/36 scale for about $76.

I am going to the store this afternoon and have a look at it all. I was asked to bring something about the size of what I want to put this into. I have a Bachmann On30 "Stock Car" and will take it.

I am scratch building a fleet of On30 McKeen Motor Cars and believe all the R/C and battery(s) stuff will fit inside one of them without a problem.

Am I missing anything?

Last edited on Mon Jul 30th, 2007 01:29 pm by Bill Fornshell

W C Greene
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The motors you want to use are those ment for model railroading! Quality little motors by Sagami, Mabucci, etc. are what you want. If you are doing your own mechanism, try to get the best you can. micro-loco-motion.com is a fellow located up here in Hurst, TX and has these and more like Falhauber gearhead motors, etc. Give him a try. The r/c car motors are probably too big for what we do and they are wound for SPEED, not slow speed operation. All the stuff you bought will work great with any model railroad motor, no problems. Remember that for you to be satisfied with this, be sure to use a great-running mechanism. Radio control won't make a sow's ear work right, use something that runs well from the outset. I also suggest hooking everything up permanently from the outset, just hooking up some wires to see what happens may cause problems(maybe not, but why court danger?) Bob has an excellent tutorial in the radio control site on the first page which details what he did and that is using the Losi board & Futaba transmitter. As we have discovered, our bridges back to dc or dcc may have been burned by going wireless, I know I won't use antique power for my trains any more! Good luck and have fun. Write if you need anything.

                Woodie

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Bob, that critter looks Great..:apl:................If it runs Half as good as it looks, you might have the NMRA throwing fits if you enter it in a NG contest ROFLMAO :)

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Thanks Todd. I never did add any details.

HO DOCTOR
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Bob;
     Looks good outside. Could you take off the engine & car shells, and show us the innerds?  I think it would be inneresting ;). (LOL)

     Thanks,  Doc.

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Hi Woodie,

This is what I looked at:
1. Futaba 2DR on sale for $39.99 but out of stock. They are ordering me one at the sale price but It will be a week or so till it comes in. The guy helping me thinks the Futaba 2DR will control 2 engines with little or no problem if I want to do that. He will help me set it up that way.

2. Receiver - "Tazer 12T - Dynamit" - $40.

3. Battery Pack - Cheap one for now. 8.4 volts $20. Charger for it is $10.
I want to get the first one up and running. Then I will decide how many and what kinds of Motive Power I want / need.

4. All the above will fit into something the size of a Bachmann On30 "stock" car. My smallest McKeen Motor Car will be about as big as the "Stock" car.

5. Motors - working on the type of motor I will try. I have several motors to pick from.

The R/C guys at the store showed a lot of interest in what I want to do. They picked up on the benifit of a battery powered engine and NO wires fast.

Dave D
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Critter looks awesome Bob!

Bill Fornshell
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I think it is time for "Radio Control for Model Trains" to have its own Yahoo Group.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RadioControlledModelTrains

What do you all think?

Tileguy
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Sounds good to me...I signed up :o)

That'l make 2 of us LOL:)

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I think it is time for "Radio Control for Model Trains" to have its own Yahoo Group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RadioControlledModelTrains What do you all think?

I dont think much of it.

I hate the yahoo groups format for posting and replying........you spend more time re-reading posts others have copied to their new post plus there is no way for the photos to be included in the text.

Woodie has things going great right here.

Many forum members have embraced the trend rather than fighting it as they did in the group he was in...why leave?

It is up to you guys....good luck with whatever you decide.

It's been real nice having you around. :Salute:

We have been here, and will still be here, if and when you decide to come back.

Trebor
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HO DOCTOR wrote: Bob;
     Looks good outside. Could you take off the engine & car shells, and show us the innerds?  I think it would be inneresting ;). (LOL)

     Thanks,  Doc.

I'll try to get some pictures this evening.

Trebor
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Here it is:



It's just a Model Power Porter Hustler. You can see where I snaked the wires. The connector is the piece with the white dot on it.

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Gardenville-

Trains magazine had an article on McKeens years ago, with a good shot of the six cylinder engine/power truck out of the car. The engine, which sat crossways, of course, looked large enough to go from wall to wall of a std. gage car. You will have to use a four cylinder in a On30--- but then you may convince Woodie to work on it if you tell him it's out of an MG.

Speaking of years ago, Model Craftsman (before the Railroad prefix) had an article on building a McKeen "locomotive", which now days would earn the title of "critter". There was a photo of the model, and a crude plan, but no proto photo, or reference source. The article and model was the work of Bill Schopp, who was not above some leg pulling now and then. I have kept looking for info on the real one since then, but I've come to the conclusion that the whole thing was a put on by Bill.

Herb:old dude:

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gardenville wrote: I think it is time for "Radio Control for Model Trains" to have its own Yahoo Group.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RadioControlledModelTrains

What do you all think?


I'm with Hotshot on this one. I have looked at some Yahoo sites, and like the way Free Rails works MUCH better

Herb:old dude:

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I like the freerails site better than the yahoo stuff, however, all I have to do to send a photo on yahoo is click twice and it's there. You can see I am still befuddled by photobucket! Bob's little critter is great! I want to build some kind of little fellow like his and may do it with the Bachmann Davenport mechanism I have around here somewhere. I sort of promised myself that I don't need a bunch of locomotives but one little critter might not hurt.

The fact that some of you think there may be interest in an r/c model train website is great! I wouldn't mind such, but I like having discussions about r/c on a site where other views and ideas are present. The more exposure radio can get is for the best. With that said, anyone who wants to host such a site can count me in on the festivities

I am working on an On30 Climax for a friend which is built from a Bachmann HO loco and a Boulder Valley "tiny Climax" kit. This little kit is very nice and the resin parts are top notch. To make this r/c, I had to widen the bunker a mite for the 9 volt battery and the Losi board sits on the cab floor but is otherwise  "stock". If anyone is building this kit and wants to make it run with onboard battery and r/c, send a message if you need encouragement or have a question.  Have fun.

                         Woodie

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ebtm3 wrote:
Gardenville-

Trains magazine had an article on McKeens years ago, with a good shot of the six cylinder engine/power truck out of the car. The engine, which sat crossways, of course, looked large enough to go from wall to wall of a std. gage car. You will have to use a four cylinder in a On30--- but then you may convince Woodie to work on it if you tell him it's out of an MG.

Speaking of years ago, Model Craftsman (before the Railroad prefix) had an article on building a McKeen "locomotive", which now days would earn the title of "critter". There was a photo of the model, and a crude plan, but no proto photo, or reference source. The article and model was the work of Bill Schopp, who was not above some leg pulling now and then. I have kept looking for info on the real one since then, but I've come to the conclusion that the whole thing was a put on by Bill.

Herb:old dude:


Hi Herb,

I have a large collection of McKeen "How To's" in model train magazines. It totals 9 model train mag's or reprints and several books with a lot of good pictures in them. I also have pictures of 3 different engine versions such as the one you are talking about.

One of the reprints had the Bill Shopp "McKeen Switcher" (critter) article you mentioned. I have made 3 cardboard mock-up's in On30 of the Switcher. After a long search I found a picture of the real McKeen Switcher (prototype) that the article was written about. My guess is that my picture is the only real photo of the Switcher that has survived. Finding it was a piece of pure luck. It has MOTLEY COUNTY RY. CO. on the picture. It seems this engine was a "1" of a kind. When I get the rivet pattern traced out I will make my "for real" version Switcher and work on the power truck. The Switcher had a 300 HP gas engine in it. This is the same engine used in the McKeen Motor Car # 100. The story is that McKeen used that engine and power truck in the Switcher to test it before he put one like it in Motor Car #100. I have pictures of #100 that shows the 6 wheel power truck.

Thanks for your interest.

Tileguy
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You can see I am still befuddled by photobucket!
 

:Hmm:Try this photo site then...it might be easier for you.

http://www.picsoup.com/

Pretty simple browse and load your picture

then just copy & paste the link that starts with IMG/

 

Thats It!!..................OR.............Mail them to me

OR

If you can do Yahoo, Join my group and post any pics you want there...I can then transfer them here for you. Besides, we could use a guy with your experience chipping 1/32 cars :thumb:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Digital_Scale_Racing/

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Hello,

some weeks ago I had a system for testing in my shop here in Germany.

It´s R/C "only" for trains.

With tjhis part you can drive 3 locos
http://train-control.de/html/junior_handsteuergerat.html

and this decoder you put in the loco.
A shay tender is no problem.
http://train-control.de/html/kleinlokdecoder_1a.html

The current comes from the track or from battry.

cheers
Kalle

Trebor
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Thanks Kalle. My German isn't very good but here's what I think it is. It looks like a combination of RC and DCC BUT it runs on 433KHZ which isn't approved for the US.

Any help would be appreciated.

W C Greene
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Todd-I like the idea of sending pix to you! I have no brains and that seems like a "no brainer" so that's what I will do. Thanks for the link to the slot site.

          Woodie

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I'm new to model trains, but I've been an avid R/C airplane flyer and competitor since I was a teenager....about 30 years. 3 years ago I switched my entire hangar to electric (LiPo) power and this past winter I switched to spread spectrum 2.44 Ghz radio systems.

My stuff isn't designed for trains but I can't really see how what I use would be much different if it were designed for trains.

I can post some links to the equipment I use to fly my smaller (indoor) planes with here if people wish.

Cheers,

Wiz

Last edited on Thu Aug 2nd, 2007 01:28 pm by Mr. Wiz

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If you want some realy small RC gear take a look at the offerings from Plantraco.

http://www.plantraco.com/hobbies/product_hfx900.html

I don't use RC gear that small myself, so my stuff is a little more affordable. I can easily imagine the Lithium Polymer (LiPo) batteries I have, recievers (RX) and electronic speed controllers (ESC) working in On30 size trains if it's tucked into a box car or tender.

Wiz


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I think I'll wait for the price to drop.

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I can see your point. RC gear isn't cheap. I also think a train specific system would be better. With that said, I just might try adapting one of my systems for train use.

I would think MRC would be in the best position to come up with a train specific RC system, simply because they are an MFG DCC equipment as well RC gear now.

I wonder if some of you more prolific train modelers could suggest it to them (MRC) in an effort to persuade them to bring a product like that to market.

It's just a thought.....

Wiz

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I meant the price of those little planes. I put together a system that runs two trains for about 100 bucks.

Mr. Wiz
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Plantraco is known for being quite expensive, but then they also make some of the very smallest RC gear available. The stuff I fly with is quite a bit larger, but still small enough of most On30 stuff, I believe.

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Mr Wiz-since you're a flyer, you don't have reverse in your airplanes do you? Also, it is not nice to run ground r/c with air frequencies, flyers can get very hostile about this! I wish manufacturers would come out with r/c for trains that is affordable, but not right now. That's why we still have to use "adaptive technology" from other hobbies for our trains. The boards are inexpensive enough for r/c cars, they can be run with 4 AAA alkalines, 9 volt alkalines, or rechargables. Yes, I use Li-Poly because most of the batteries flyers use will fit into my punky locos.

       Woodie

Mr. Wiz
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That's true, but it's a simple matter to use a TX (transmitter) designed for ground use vehicles and change the crystal in the RX to a ground frequency... But in my case, I'm using the new 2.4Ghz spread spectrum gear and with that there is no rule about ground or air frequencies simply because frequency isn't an issue at all. I can fly (drive trains?) whenever I like without causing any frequency conflict issues for anyone. It's really very cool not to have to worry about sombody shooting down my plane anymore.

If you are so inclined, go to Horizonhobby.com and have a look at the Spektrum brand car radios they have there.

As for the reverse issue, it's a simple matter to buy a car ESC and get a reverse. I believe Novak makes a very small one with that function. I can probably even find a cheap Pacific Rim made one with a little internet surfing.

With the new sub micro R/C gear and LiPo batteries, R/C for trains as small as HO is an easy thing to accomplish today. Now, how to you get that compatible with your sound systems?

The technology is there and it's no longer cutting edge technology either. All the model train industry needs to do is make a system specific to the train hobby. Of course, they'll probably market it as something special and charge an arm and a leg for it.

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Yes, I agree about the new digital r/c systems. Mr Wiz, I work in at a hobby shop that carries all the latest r/c stuff so I am familiar with what's available. As I stated, I have no sound effect desires so no worries there. As for receiver/esc boards, with all the searching I have done, still the Kyosho Mini Z Racer boards are the smallest with proportional forward & reverse. The Novak SPY esc is super small, but you still need a receiver to make it operate. Also, the SPY has to be programmed for use. While I love using r/c in my trains, I abhor having to program anything so I like what I have. I am supportive of anyone changing to wireless no matter what system they use. I realize that (for instance), if the LOSI board (30 bucks) was made for model trains, the cost would be probably 90 bucks. The manufacturers know that they can get high dollars for model rr stuff so the trend continues. Still, battery size will be the issue here, boards can get as small as possible, but batteries capable of powering model trains still need shrinking. I have found what I like and am able to pack everything into something as small as a Bachmann On30 0-4-2t outline. Now, My stuff may be in 1:32 scale, but there are still space issues and batteries head the list. Maybe we should be talking to battery manufacturers instead of r/c makers, who knows. Anyway, I am having fun running trains anytime, any place...even across a counter top with no track!

                     Woodie

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I'm a little surprised that you're finding it hard to get a battery to do the job. Are you trying to fit it into an On30 Porter?

What is the current demand for your typical train?

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Mr Wiz-I'm not having any problems with batteries, I am just trying to help others. I use THUNDER POWER Li-Poly rechargable batteries in all my 3/8n20 (1:32 scale narrow gauge running on 16.5mm gauge) and am able to fit a 7.4 volt 2 cell job under the cab roof in my Porter. These smaller batteries can be fitted into most all On30 locos, the cab detail might consist of battery and r/c receiver, but the rewards far outweigh the lack of "proper detailing". Some fellows I know have small tenders for their Porters and Davenports which carry the equipment. All my 3/8 locos are also run with KYOSHO Mini-Z receiver/esc boards. Their performance is the same as high end dcc systems but without sound(I don't want that) and the wiring mess. Whatever anyone does is fine with me, I love what I have and will continue to go this way. By the way, I have 10-12% grades on my mining line and run trains from 3 or 4 cars with a Porter to 10 or more cars with my Shay or Garratt. I am able to get quite a few hours of fun before batteries need recharging.          Later,    Woodie

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Woodie,

It seems as though you pretty much have it all figured out. I'm still tempted to give some of my equipment a try in a train. I think it could work out quite well.

I also believe that an RC compatible sound system would be great, but then we'd have to haul aroung even more battery capacity.

Lastly, I use Mr Wiz as a handle on most internet discussion groups, but my friends call me Mike, or Wiz.

Cheers,

Wiz

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Mike it is! All this r/c stuff is "experimental" at the time but someday....

I only wish I had all this figured out, but whatever I have done is in the realm of "dumb luck"..things have just seemed to work from the start. Since I am a computer doofus, I don't like to have to program things and these little car boards work great without any messing around. Matter of fact, I can install r/c in most locos in probably 20-30 minutes. The hardest part is finding room for batteries, sometimes that calls for some moto-tool work. If you have the desire, it will happen.

                      Woodie

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Woodie:
Charlie here, just joined, you people are nuts, fer sure, so I'm digging out my abandoned tug boat (R/C) and Mogul (0n30) and to forth......

NOW, Google  Flickr.com  follow directions, you'll have pix in view almost immeciately.  Check the following:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/tinturtle/

I'm 76 and did it, you're a Texan, yu can do it too!

Pictures really make the difference as I read all this I keep wondering  - what does it look like?  which end  is up?  The pix seen so far are  fantastic.

As a crank scratchbuilder, this is really a breath of fresh air and a shot of single malt whisky  -- thanks to all who are participating.

By the way, wot's the minimum radius a battery engine ....... -- I just couldn't resist!

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Charlie-welcome. Minimum radius of an r/c locomotive??? Hmmmm...how about whatever radius it will go around. One of mine will do wheelies and donuts if given a chance. Get your stuff out and get to work, you won't be sorry!

        Woodie

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Charlie-just looked at your site, you HAVE been at work...very nice stuff indeed. I have some photos on freerails in the narrow gauge section. My layout doesn't have much water around, you know how it is in West Texas!

        WCG

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Charlie, Woodie is right, you have some nice stuff there.

I find that even with short rolling stock, 10-inches is about the minimum radius unless you want to have a lot of space between cars.

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Woodie,

What is your take on the Artiso-Craft HO Train Engineer?

Charlie
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Woody et al:
so I dug around and found these - please advise whether to keep or toss - thanks!
A Hi-Tec Ranger III  FM 3 channel controller.
A Hi-Tec HFS 0,3mm receiver PO 1119275 with three plug in - 3pin thingys and a DSC Batt space. Single Conversion, Narrow band.

Pluged in to the  DSC hole is an 'on/off' switch that plugs into a black box w/4 Rayovac AAs due to die in Dec.2011 !

Also there is a slightly modified Mogul Bachmann 2-6-0 quietly awaiting care! hehh,heh,heh!

As you can see in one or more of the pix, I have set up a 'snap-together' layout at our local train show to demonstrate 0n30 as well as a switching set-up for us spatially deprived, Condo dwellers in our twilight years to encourage into activity.

This R/C thing is FANTASTIC!  Shelf layouts, closet switchyards, creativity, artistic expression, fairly inexpensive, satisfying AND no wires!

Final thought, are you all saying, -  all I gotta do is shoehorn this little receiver on board an engine, run a pair of wires to a battery, sit back, open a micro-brew, flip on the transmitter and play trains??   WOW!  and thank you all for the combined energy to let this concept emerge!

W C Greene
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Bob-if this is the Aristo DC ENGINEER with the small board-get it! They make one that fits into large scale and another that fits into HO. Funny thing is that in their literature, they talk about how all you do is turn up the track power (like dcc) and you can run 999locos!  They tell about using track power, but there is no mention of"track power or batteries"...nowhere! That's thinking! My friend Travis Glass uses the Crest stuff in his 3/8n20 locos and loves it.  It has a "standard" Crest wireless throttle that doesn't look like Capt Kirk's phaser pistol. What Travis found is that the throttle has a programmable delay (momentum) which is cool, but I prefer the instant startup and stop, I do a lot of switching. The board is a little smaller than the Kyosho I use and hooks up about the same way. This unit costs more than if you bought car stuff, but you know how pricing for model railroaders is! If you see one of these available, get it! We had them at the store and then Crest "back ordered" the units, they say they are revamping the system.

Charlie-keep all your r/c stuff You should be able to use it all for your trains. Now, there is some ballyhoo about using "air frequencies" on ground (trains) vechicles, but unless you live next to a flying field, I wouldn't worry much. Sounds like all you need will be a good ESC (Electronic speed control) and you're set. A good one to look for is the NOVAK SPY, a micro esc for cars. I believe all this will fit into a Bachmann On30 2-6-0 tender. You might consider using a 9 volt alkaline for power, those old ni-cads may be too large. Any servos you have can be used for animation, railcar drives, etc. so there is something to think about.

No wiring, no hassles...I am old enough to not want to mess with such trivial stuff! True-I spent the morning fixing some track problems and messing with scenery, but any time I put into the layout is really a joy, my Mogollon Railway has never felt a brite boy track cleaner and the only worries are the ants that sometimes get on the track-the layout is set up outside-but the old Shay usually squishes them when a train gets going. Ahhhh, realism!

                      Woodie

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Woodie

  Am a 'newbie' from across the pond into On30 with DCC(and some sound). I am thinking of using RC on a couple of bashes of small HO diesels to start. They will probably be built as Boxcabs so will have room for the equipment. Spent a few hours yesterday surfing and found a UK dealer who stocks the LOSI cars but not the separate boards. Do you get yours from the shop where you work or elsewhere? Could you give me details of a US stockist who does overseas shipping?

Eric 

 

 



                               

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Eric,

The part number is LOSB 0803. If you do an internet search, it pops up in a lot of places, including Ebay.

Bob

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Eric-believe it or not, the fvolks here at the Dallas Hobby Town USA can and will ship to the UK. I have no idea about what it costs, but we have shipped there before. You can contact me at my e mail   mogollonry@sbcglobal.net and I will see what we can do. I only work Friday & Saturday there, so if you need this shipped soon, you may call  214-987-4744 here in Dallas, TX and they will take care of you. Good luck with the project, you can run your dcc with the r/c locos, but remember that the r/c locos MUST HAVE the track pickups disabled to keep from frying the board, and the wheels must be insulated properly to keep from frying your dcc equipment!

               Woodie

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Woody et al:
Checked out yer narra gage pictures  -- O.K. So you drove the anasasi (sp?) from the rim!  Wow, some pictures, some total presentation! Really exciting quality - and in 0n30!! Simply Beautiful work! thanks.

Now, wot do I do with this 'red thing' - receiver+crystal - does the whole unit need replacing? 

If I cut the three wire  leads plug from the (boat) motor, can I use them to connect  the train engine to 'red thing'?  I'll ask first and then plunge ahead!!

Asheville is sort of 'back of the woods' for hobby stuff so it's a bit chancey running across any R/C folk for help. 

Blessings +

CAB


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     Bob,

  After more 'surfing' ,found Horizon Hobby website with a link to the site of the firm they bought in UK. They are only Distributors but have list of stockists of TeamLosi items. Half a doz.have the complete Micro-T car kit and two have parts lists which include the 0803 board but there are no purchase links for it. Must make a couple of phone calls to see if they actually stock or are willing to obtain.

  I am banned from Ebay and Paypal since I closed my accounts with them many years ago after some hassle; altho I can still make payments with my credit card thru Paypal on some sites.

   Eric

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   Woodie,

Thanks for your offer of help and apologies for delay in reply. Living alone,I have such mundane things as shopping,cooking,housework and laundry that must be done. Having reached the 'tender'age of 80, these take rather longer than they used to do--plus the time spent visiting all my On30 and allied groups and forums on the net and my one-finger typing of replies doesn't leave much time to actually make something. Often wonder how I ever had time to go to work.LOL

 I really need a dealer who has a website with online shopping that takes credit cards. Wish someone like Tony's Trains would take RC trains on board.

 As a (23yrs.)retired Telecom engineer I am happy with things 'electric circuit' wise and as a (dormant)RC scale model boater I have both Futaba and Acoms transmitters plus chargers,various rechargeables and other stuff. I have a Lenz 100 DCC set on my main layout and a Bach EZ-Control set on a small portable; and you are making it all redundant.

    Eric.

  

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Eric-all you "old cats" are OK by me. My friend Mudge is 85 and while he has some problems with his hands, he is still an active modeler. Mudge (Bill) has a wonderful HO/HOn3 dual gauge layout that runs flawlessly. Mudge is also a fine r/c plane builder & flyer so he is promoting r/c in trains. Matter of fact, he has an old Mantua 2-6-2 Prairie with board and 9 volt battery in the tender, so he is an up to date sort of guy. My experience (so far) has shown me that different pieces of equipment are compatable. For instance, I have an old JR 2 stick transmitter which runs all my Kyosho board equipped locos nicely. I built a hand held throttle with an old Traxas r/c car transmitter and it works fine also. Mudge uses an old Futaba 2 stick car radio with his Prairie which has a Kyosho board also. To add to the fray, I have a Bachmann On30 2-8-0 with a Losi board and 9 volt battery in the tender and it runs great with my "hodge-podge" assortment of transmitters. My current layout (Mogollon Railway) is by far the most satisfying line I have ever built, it is wireless and runs like...well, like it should! I never got into dcc, I put all my eggs in the r/c basket and it has paid off handsomely. Matter of fact, I believe I need to get out there and bring some loads down from the Chupacabra mine to the monorail connection. Hard work for sure.

                       Woodie

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Charlie-what do you mean about the "red thing"?? I assume that it is the receiver/esc (electronic speed control) and if it is, then just connect the wires that ran to the boat motor to the locomotive motor. Does this boat have "proportional" speed control. you know, like how a variable power supply is able to run the motor at different speeds? If there is no speed control, then I would reccomend looking at another board. You can use the ni-cad batteries if you have room in the loco or maybe a tender or trailer car, or you might try a simple 9 volt alkaline battery. This stuff is simpler to mess with than dcc and once hooked up and working properly just may spoil you forever in favor of r/c. Just think....you will never have to mess with track wiring again, never need to clean track again, never have to use any dpdt's spst's yadda yadda ever again to run your trains!  Now, I may not reccomend r/c to everybody-if you like to watch the train run around and around, then maybe you need dc or dcc. If you have a big modern mainline operation with 110 car coal trains and miles of pig flats, then you may not want r/c. But if you are a short line or narrow gauge modeler in perhaps On30. On3, maybe sn, or larger HOn3 locos and want to do switching, running short locals and all that, then you will love r/c..it makes operation possible with no hassles. I love this stuff!

                       Woodie

climax joe
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Woodie,

I found one of the 6 names that I Signed on but I don't know what password I used but it seems to let me reply to your post. I still don't know why it took over a month to get the email but I got all 6 at the same time.

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Hi Climax Joe

From your post should I understand that you have had a problem registering with us. If this is the case please let us know and we will jump on it.
During the last 6 weeks we have had a hacker on the site a couple of times but I am led to believe there was no damage.
Your feed back would be appreciated.

Watch out for Woodie

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Welcome Climax Joe. Yes, Don, I know this fellow very well. Joe is one of my crazy On30 r/c buddies. We've been down some dusty roads together, I am happy that he is here! Joe won't carry on about himself, but I will. He is an excellent modeler and has embraced the craziness that I am fond of-r/c. Some years back, Joe & I went to the local model train emporium with our new r/c On30 locos. Joe asked the manager if we could run our locos on their HO layout. "I'm sorry, but the layout isn't running, the wiring isn't done." Joe replied "we don't need no stinkin' wiring!" and the employees and manager came over one at a time, watched us run our stuff, shook their heads, and walked off grumbling! Another store manager watched as we ran an r/c loco across his display case and muttered"that's unnatural!"

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Howdy Joe and Mudge sez "hey!"...                         Woodie 

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Welcome Joe.

You received all 6 at once because I was contacted off forum about an issue with not being able to sign up such as you had.

In an effort to fix the situation I went in and manually resent the activation e-mails for all unactivated accounts.

I don't know why they were not sent automatically?

Anyway.Welcome aboard!

Charlie
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Electricians, all!
O.K., so my emasculated B'mann Mogul is lying on it's side kicking at the end of a pair of wires touching a 9V Battery - A TeamLosi reclines awaiting dismantling - I'm about to unplug the wires for steering (?) remove screws for battery and receiver.  Once my heart beat returns to normal, I shall attempt to afix the receiver up into the cab, connect the battery via the tender and give it a go.    All things considered, does this sound right?

Looking forward to your suggestions--:Hmm:
Charlie      Asheville  NC

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Yep.

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Charlie-it sounds OK to me. Why don't you put the receiver and battery in the tender? Then you would keep the cab clear for the "all important" cab detailing and crew. The loco could be "rigged" up without the superstructure to see how it all works.  Then when you are satisfied, get rid of the track pickups bearing on the drivers and you are ready! I know this step isn't viewed as necessary by most, but those little wipers cause undue friction on the backsides of the drivers and sometimes, SOMETIMES, can get caught between the spokes and cause %$#&*^%$#. Do whatever you want. Remember that when you get ready, turn on the Transmitter first, then the loco. Shutting down is just the opposite. Mudge says I'm crazy for doing this, but my r/c guru (flys r/c jets) says it is the right way. Bob knows what to do and either one of us can advise you. A new member, Climax Joe, is an r/c guy and knows all the tricks also. We're all waiting for you to either write and say "WOW" or not write at all since you will be totally engrossed in running your new r/c loco! Have fun and don't get bogged down in the details. By the way, just string out the antenna wire for now, each loco will have it's own way to mount the antenna anyway.

        Woodie

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Thanks, Woodie--
Wipers removed at the start so tomorrow after PT (!) I'll try to rig the tender.
  I feel  like I'm walking blind but we'll 'see' how the intuition work!

Let's see,
"kneebone connected to the jaw bone, jawbone connected to the rib cage".....I think I got it......wot's that smell.....?    sigh!

Charlie       Asheville  NC  :Dance:

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Charlie,

If you go back to page 4 of this post, there is a picture of how I wired my Losi board. The black and red go from the battery to the receiver. The blue and orange go to the motor. The colors on yours might be different but you should be able to trace which ones are which.

Bob

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:Woohoo:
Thank you BOB, WOODY and all you's rest.......
At 8:31 PM, Sunday, Aug. 12th. light was seen at the end of the tunnel!       HEAD LIGHT!

It works,    an' you guys are genisuses!
Anybuddy wanta buy some wire.      Heh,heh,heh!

Now, I must finish my 5' switching rig (just glue down the track, sprinkle gravel, vaccum floor) re-assemble the Mogul and take pix.

Thank you so very much--
and.....with especial..........
Blessings +
Charlie        Asheville, NC


W C Greene
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Charlie-GREAT NEWS!!! Get on the chat line tonight (9pm cdt US) and regale us with the details! I know you will have fun now!!!

   Woodie 

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Would like  to do 'chat' but havn't figured that one out yet!

Goiing outside to see if we can see any 'shootingstars' --  the persid shower should be prime just about now! (Wife likes the astronomy bit so.....my attendence guarentees a certain train support!)

Will have more to say after noon tomorrow (Mon.)
Thanks again for the help!

Blessings+

Charlie      Asheville  NC

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Trebor,
Your post with the pictures of the "How to" a LOSI board back on page 4 or so is the best information I have seen for someone new to RC for trains. I expect to have my RC parts early next week and your pictures will really help get mine going.

Trebor
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That's great news Charlie. I see an RC convention coming up.

Actually the pictures are on page 5 of this post.

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Hi Guys,

Like Charlie I now have a Mico-T car set and have checked that my Futaba 2 channel trans.works with it. Now to strip out the bits and fit to a loco. If the Futaba controls the loco ok(as a back up), I will see about converting the 'Capt.Kirk' transmitter.

I have a Mogul tender which I bashed by removing the coal load area up to the top deck,added a couple of coal boards at the front and raised boards around the coal aperture. A piece of plactic with coal added is cut to fit on the top deck inside the raised boards . This almost doubles the space available inside the tender.

Have had a couple of thoughts about this. Add  bits of pc board on top of the steering servo and a wiper on the servo arm . Switch on /off headlight or backup light at will.  The other idea is to use a couple of the small recordable board units that I bought at give-away price. They run off 4 button cells and hold a 30 second recording which is long enough for a crossing signal which I did with thoughts of mounting under a crossing on the layout. The other could have a bell recording and the extra servo can switch on one or t'other. They are single shot not loop playing but that is a very minor point.

 

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Charlie wrote: Goiing outside to see if we can see any 'shootingstars' --  the persid shower should be prime just about now!

 

I went out this morning, too hazy. Didn't see any. Maybe next year.

Charlie
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For Eric:
I lifted the cab on the Mogul, seperated - with difficulty - the motor/wheels  - extracted the wipers after snipping the leads, soldered extenders to the leads and brought them down below the boiler.  Closed it up and  took tender to task.  Removed weight, stuck battery and board in along with on/off switch dangling out the side. (tacky)  brought motor lead out to the front, stuck the extended leads into the connector, turned on the switch, pulled the 'trigger' and it tried to run away!

Turned to Bob's pix and, b'gawd, that's just how it looked - but I left  the cover off!
It really is as simple as  'they'  say  and virtually bullet proof.  Now I must return and neaten up the carcase, hide that dangling on/off switch and detail as required!

My 'thing' is "Carl Arendt" style switching rigs and I discovered R/C in the midst of one, so I must finish  that to take pix of my "High Hoss!"  deadline by Friday,  next!

Go  for it, Eric, it's as good as they say it is!.......and.......as usual..........
Blessings+

 

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You guys have got it! Once you get the system figured out, then it's time to hide it all in the tender, etc. A coat of flat black on the board won't hurt anything and will help hide the stuff. The receive crystal can be remotely mounted anywhere in the loco, etc. by making a little wire harness & hooking it up. I wish I knew what I was able to cut off the boards to make them smaller but still work, however, I am not a circuit genius, so leave that to others who can figure it all out. Someday, there will be an r/c board for model trains in smaller scales, but we are having fun NOW, later may be much later!

      Woodie

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Charlie wrote: My 'thing' is "Carl Arendt" style switching rigs  

Which layout are you building?

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Charlie-you will find that switchin' is far more fun with radio. No cleaning the stinkin' track and wheels, no whacking the layout when the loco stalls on something, no hassles whatever! Keep up the good work and don't listen to any "funny business" from the unwashed nitpicker crowd.

I am going to write a tome about my adventures operating an outdoor layout in 110 degree heat! You just need a jug of water, a cap, sunglasses, shorts & sandals, and r/c to make it all worthwhile! By the way, you also need a cool place to get into occasionally....

           Woodie

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While you're resting  -  check out my   http://www.flickr.com/photos/tinturtle
site and have a look at a modified mogul, wireless, radio control that took me about 4 hours to accomplish.

Shortcomings - no bells or whistles & so far, no signals or extra lights  etc.to confuse the control panel (no control panel/switch machines either)  I'm content just chugging back and forth, gliding across switch points and enjoying the ride!  (added for the 0n30 audiophiles & tie tallymen!)  :glad:

Trebor - there's a poor picture of the wharf rig - check the   <inselbahn.de >    &  Juist  site for some pix wot inspired  me.  when finished I'll take better shots!

........and..........as usual..............
Blessings +
Charlie       Asheville NC
Historically Plausable, not Prototypical
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tinturtle/

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Looks great. Watch out, Woodie is gonna hoop and hollar all over the place.

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Yep, it's a beautiful day to be able to see another satisfied railroader! That mogul looks like it should and now it will run as it should! Charlie, the sound will happen. I hooked up an expensive TSUNAMI dcc/sound board to my Shay and it worked, but I am running 11 volts in her and the board won't fire up until about 7-8 volts so it's not ideal. I will be content to let others worry about the sound thing, I love running silently while I listen to the birds and crickets and maybe some classical or jazz in the background. Whatta life!!!!

             Woodie

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BOB:
Thanks for the Gnomy connection - I've looked all over to replicate the carriages used on the 'inselbahn.de' at Juist and think a pair of streetcars, end to end will do pretty good for a 6 window car.

Now to find a dealer  or can you recommend a  dependable mail-order source?  Local 'Toy' shops carry some LGB but seem hesitent to order -???

Gotta get busy on a 0-4-0 gas-mechanical to haul tourists!

The fun thing about the wharf is  - place on blue plastic showercurtain (?) and no need for
sides and background - plus now I  can justify some boatbuilding!  heh,heh,heh!

Blessings +
Charlie        Asheville  NC

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Charlie,

Do a search for "LGB Gnomy". Lots of places pop up. Don't buy them on EBay, I've seen them go for almost $20.00. They're only about $4.00 in a store. I get mine at the LHS.

Bob

Last edited on Tue Aug 14th, 2007 10:55 pm by Trebor

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Well Woodie, I finally registered for this forum just so I could keep an I on you guys....like I couldn't before  :)  At some time we will have to cover the building of the Van Buren switcher in this and the HO threads.

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Well, well if it ain't old Mopman! Looks like we're gonna have a "Dallas conspiricy" for sure! I have known old Mopman since we were kids, well maybe young "adults" and he is totally crazy for railroads and as you may deduce from his moniker, the Mo Pac. I believe I have finally been able to get this guy to do some r/c...yep, a diesel lovin' Arkansas Missouri Pacific 1970's class A mainliner. Soon, he will have a pair of SW switchers, one powered and the other full of r/c board and battery which will enable him to do local switching while the mainline runs (dc, no dcc). Sooooo, here's another HO scale operator who has seen the light and knows the score.

As a personal note to MOPMAN-you're gonna have to get used to link & pin couplers on my line, no wimps allowed!

              Woodie

 

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Found this photo--ideal for RC. 
Bach On30 0-4-0 chassis for power in one and RC bits in twin using wire handrail on top as aerial.  What think you?


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Eric-yes indeed! Those little locos are ment for r/c. I imagine that you could string the antenna across both units and pack one with the gear and battery. Let us know if you build one of these. The mechanism looks like it could be made from Bachmann trolleys (HO & On30). In O scale, you should be able to get the equipment in a powered loco-battery in one, board in the other, and then it would pull the wallpaper......you know.

              Woodie

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Woodie - As you know, I can handle link & pin as long as you furnish the tweesers :).  Maybe we can get a little more switching done this afternoon as it's not supposed to hit 100 today.

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  Woodie

     Think that the Bach On30  Street car is a good match--the side frames are similar and it's about half the price of the Gas Mechanical 0-4-0.
      I  have an Athearn SW-7 chassis fitted with DCC Sound. It already has a new wider deck but no top as yet. Am thinking of removing the decoder and using the chassis for my first try at RC . Make a plastic sheet saddle over the motor and 'ride' the PP battery on top. The board will fit on edge on one side and the switch is hidden amongst all the tanks and radiators on top of the body (I prefer Boxcabs to Critters).
      If I can find a supplier of the board without the car then I may try the 'Twins' with the board and 2 AA Ni-Mhs in one and 4 AA Ni-Mhs in the other(have some 2300mAH).
      Is 11v. necessary or would a 7.2v Li-Poly be enough for 4-5% grades?

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Eric-see if you can locate a TEAM LOSI MICRO-T board, I believe it is part # LOSB0804 (Bob, you know this one!!!) and that will do you fine. The li-poly batteries are smaller than the ni-cads, etc. and supply more WHACK, but you will need a charger for them-my choice is a CELECTRA charger made by E FLIGHT. The battery will cost some scratch at the outset, but I believe you will be happier with the performance and longevity of li-poly's. Just to "get going", try a regular 9 volt alkaline battery to see how it all operates. You might have to buy a complete LOSI car to get the transmitter & crystals if you need them. Good luck whatever you do. 

                     Woodie

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It's LOSB0803 not 0804

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Woodie,

   Already have a Micro-T car set plus a Futaba transmitter and full set of crystals.

I have just found out that the importers Horizon Hobby UK (actually owned by the US company) have the seperate boards in stock and have ordered a couple from the dealer who supplied the car set--£25.99 as against £56.95 for the car.

Was thinking earlier(yes I know--Dangerous) about a little switching module to ram home the pros of RC. How about a Model A Climax running on hand-laid track and stub turnouts with WOOD rails nailed to the sleepers as in the early days.

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HALP!
Can't find connectors used by LOSI around town - need a bunch for setting up locos --already moved 'stuff' from Mogul to little 0-4-0 steamer (the green one) and struggling with the connectors. Suggested sources?

Eric - fret wire - for Banjo/mandolin/guitar - in bulk might make interesting rail on top of wood for a Class"A" Climax using concave wheelsets !.  Could be expensive - it's been 30 years since I bought it by the yard!!

Finally, wot do y'all do about the 'whine'when running real slow?  I tried to teach it the words to the ballad but it just kept on humming!  (sic)    Be careful about the answer as I am an electrical incompetant so you need to be very simplistic in identifying items and where they are attached - if that need be the case.  :bang:

I certainly appreciate all your help  and the time it takes to figure out a response - I hope to soon be at a level where I can lurk and not impose!

and......as usual..............
Blessings +
Charlie       ASheville  NC

Last edited on Fri Aug 17th, 2007 12:39 pm by Charlie

W C Greene
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Charlie, Eric-yes, you will probably get a little "hum" from the motor or board, you might try some small diodes across the motor brushes. Some of mine do this, some don't. At the moment, I would rather have the hum than the humbug of wiring garbage. The little connectors you need are made by MINIATRONICS-2 pin connectors. Charlie-you should be able to get the LOSI boards, Eric can get them in the UK! Try the "net" or if all else fails, contact the Dallas Hobby Town USA at 214-987-4744 and they will be glad to send you not only boards, but connectors, and whatever else you need. I am there on Saturdays and Fridays but any of the folks would be glad to help.

As for that class A Climax on track with wooden sleepers, you could build a Climax for a 7 foot pole road and lay the "track" with peeled logs and an r/c loco would run just as fine on that as it would on steel (or nickel silver) rails. Imagination is all you need!

           Woodie

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Hey Woodie-
Better than wooden track, how about building roads, and take the batteries and radio gear out of your locomotive and put it into a car? Need to come up with some way to steer the thing, but you seem to be very clever.

JUST KIDDING!
HONEST!

Herb:old dude:

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Herb-I would love to r/c one of my 1:32 Model T autos! The thing is that I would want it to run fairly slowly and the steering...well, the Model T steering is so distinctive that it would take scratchbuilding most everything mechanical. I HAVE thought about this!  I do have a model of a Cletrac tractor made from a cheap little r/c tank that I use to occasionally switch ore cars. I will take a photo of the thing & send it along. I have also used cheap r/c car boards to control a rotary dumper and some other stuff. You see, I ain't kidding and I am C R A Z Y!!!!!!!

             Woodie

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Here's a link to my bashed, free-lanced rendition of the Long Island boxcabs.  These are 1:64 - old AF caboose bodies mounted on the power trucks of an AF GP-7.  The powered loco has a can motor - the trailer loco is empty - soon to be full of R/C equipment and batteries!

http://s-scale.org/albums/main.php/v/friends/dmunseyjr/juicejacks3crpadj.jpg.html

ENJOY!

Don

 

 

 

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Woodie,

It's not 1:32 - but - there's room in the back of a Mack Acorn Moving Truck for a LOSI board and a 9-volt battery (on top of the Bachmann HO 44-ton power block used for power)  to do this Sn42 railtruck.  I'm going to replace the hard cover with a tissue paper one to simulate a canvas top - that should give me another millimeter aor so of space to work with.

http://s-scale.org/albums/main.php/v/friends/dmunseyjr/Sn42_acorn_railtruck_right.jpg.html

ENJOY!

Don

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Don-wonderful models! I really love the railtruck.  The boxcab link gave me a "not available" notice, so I didn't get to see them! I just LOVE computers! Remember that you will not be able to run any of your r/c equipment on anybody's layout anywhere in the world, at least on the big time S scale dude's layout. Maybe if he tore out all his wiring, then you could run there, maybe not. I may go out on a limb and say thet he probably doesn't have a layout, just some dusty shelves and lots of attitude!

             Woodie       

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Woodie,

I had to try them a couple of times myself!

 

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  Woodie & Co.,

     Success,have installed the Losi ex-car board on the Athearn HO SW 7 chassis and run on the kitchen worktop with the 4.8v car battery for now. Cut a Sellotape "sticky fixer"in half and fixed board and battery on either side of motor.



Cut off motor lead plug and wired board direct to motor, then used plug to make a lead for a 9v.(when I get one) or a battery holder. Aerial bent in a "U".



Battery--1/3 AAA 150mah 4.8v.NiMh



 Complete set.  Now to make a boxcab top for it then bash the 'Trigger' transmtr. ready for when my other boards arrive. 

 

Last edited on Sun Aug 19th, 2007 02:27 pm by Eric UK

W C Greene
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Eric-GREAT!!! You won't be sorry!

              Woodie

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  Woodie,

What capacity Li-PO batteries are you using?

  Others,

  RCHobbies at - http://h1071118.hobbyshopnow.com/  -have the Losi boards in stock ; on home page enter LOSB0803 in search box at top right.

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Eric-most of my locos have 7.4 volt/2 cell li-po batteries. There are various MAH outputs and sizes, I pick one that will fit into the loco without too much fuss. Whatever you use will power the loco just fine.

             Woodie

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One of the things I`ve been looking into is picking up power from our old Track
Power and sending this into my Batteries to try and keep them Topped up or
at the very least extend my running time between Battery recharges.
I dont think it`s Rocket Science, but I`m trying two of the older methods of Track Pickup and sending this power straight to the Battery stowed in my Tender.
So far, I have`nt burned out a Motor or set the Layout on fire nor the Tender
for that matter.
It may be wishfull thinking, but I trully feel my Runtime has been extended.
Has anyone else tried anything like this as well, mybe we can compare notes,
sort of like You show me yours and I`ll show you mine. LOL

Regards,
John Richards.

W C Greene
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John-whatever melts your butter! I wanted to do away with any kind of wiring due to the layout I have. I don't have a problem with recharging the loco on the workbench or even while on the layout if I locate the charger nearby. Just have fun doing what you do is the message.

                   Woodie

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I found a Futaba Attack Digital Proportional T2DR... the back says, 75mhz. Would this work for an R/C converison. What mhz are the Losi receivers?

Thanks,

 

Ken C.

Morganton, NC

 

W C Greene
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Ken-yes it will work with the proper crystals. Bob (Trebor) set up his LOSI board with a 75MHZ crystal and the Futaba Attack transmitter also. All seems to work well since the boards and crystals are for 75MHZ AM operation. Let us know how you're doing.

        Woodie

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Charlie wrote: HALP!
Can't find connectors used by LOSI around town - need a bunch for setting up locos --already moved 'stuff' from Mogul to little 0-4-0 steamer (the green one) and struggling with the connectors. Suggested sources?


 

      Charlie,

   In Losi's parts list is item LOSB0860  Connector Set w/Wire......$3.00       this is one male and one female connector set. 

     RC Hobbies at  http://h1071118.hobbyshopnow.com  have them in stock. On home page click on cars on Header....click on TeamLosi in RH box.....then click Car Batts. and Access. in LH column.   Also LiPo batts and mains charger for Micro-T boards.

     Must get some myself-- make things a lot easier. LOL

    

   

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     Guys,

Has anyone tried  using just the (ratcheted)Trim on the Joystick for slow running. It works on my Athearn SW 7 chassis using the 4.8v. LiPO car battery.

 I can't get LOSI board to work anyhow with a PP3 batt( Alkaline or NiHm rechargeable)  on either this or a ModelPower Hustler-- it will work with 3 AA or 4 AAA  Alk. cells. 

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Eric-I believe there is a minimum voltage requirement for the Losi boards. The Kyosho boards I use will operate on a 3.7 volt li-po and has good speed control also. Keep on experimenting, that's what makes this all fun!

         Woodie

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Hi, I`ve used R/C now for around two years, wouldn`t return to conventional
for love nor money.
For proportional speed control, I buy from a chap in Hong Kong, For $32.00
Aust` I get a controller no bigger then a Matchbox that plugs straight into
the Receiver, where you use an "Attack unit" I use a "Sabre unit" The complete
R/C setup two channel cost around $80.00 here in Aust`.
I have two Locomotives operational in this manner with a Third being built, the
Live Steamer in Gauge 1 I`m building will also be setup to operate under
R/C control just as soon as possible. {meaning saved enough to buy another
set} ;-}
Slow running is not a problem with any of them, "B class Climax", "4-6-0 Tank"
or my little "2-4-0 Portman".
I`ve used DCC in my Sn3.5 Layout and found this to be mundane to say the
least, while operating my Gauge 1 outfit outside is a real pleasure.

Regards,
John.

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What scale are you using R/C in? What type of batteries are you using?

Ken

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Hi again, I`ve used R/C in my SN3.5 scale and now in my Gauge 1 or G scale
as you like, I`ve had no problem in either scales altho` I reckon there`s
a lot more room i the G scale to spread out a little. ;-}

regards,
John.

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Please tell us what type of batteries are you using. Inquiring minds want to know!!

        Woodie

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Woodie and all:
                        I've just got from John Lostcreeck (Holland) this link. Since I don't understand one word of german I post it here in the hope some fellow will translate at least the main idea and possibilities. Hier is the link:
                     

             http://www.micromodelle.de/Micromodelle/micromodelle.html

             
                        Thank you.

                                             Daniel

W C Greene
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Daniel-that link went to some truly incredible work! From what I can tell, these trucks are HO (1:87) scale and use Grauppner (?) r/c equipment. From what I know(very little) about this company, the equipment may be for micro airplanes. Here in the States, the "flyboys" will burn your house down if they catch you using aircraft frequencies, they are that way! Now maybe in Germany, Grauppner makes small r/c car stuff, but I can't be sure without a net search. The little cars run with small capacators wired in parallel (looks like) and can run for 40 minuten per charge. The chassis appear to have been milled from brass so I am sure this fellow knows what he's doing. Apparently, the steering servo is the largest piece of equipment in these models (he has several) and with that said, the steering is proportional and probably the speed is also. Very tiny stuff indeed. If there are any fellows fluent in German, we would appreciate knowing what is written in this site.

The new frontier may be model railroaders learning how to build highways to run their operating autos and trucks. I already have r/c cat tractors but they don't need a road. Still, the space-eater is the battery...someday that will be fixed also!

           Woodie

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Woodie and all:
                         Thank you for your answer. I just clicked Grauppner at Google and came to a lot of forums dealing with RCC. Most in German - not for me - but also some in other languages and of course in English. I logged in one and placed a message asking for info about the Grauppner material and possibilities. The funny thing is that here for me (Amsterdam) is much easier to get something from the Grauppner range than from Kyosho or the other. I was not able to find a English forum about RCC for trains so I went into one dealing with robotics. Who knows?

                                      Daniel

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Don't forget there are sites wthat will attempt to translate any web page... It's not totally accurate but it helps.

http://www.google.com/translate_t

http://babelfish.altavista.com/

Ken C.

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Ken:
       Well... It is my home but I never thought I had that room!  (Don't worry. also my computer is laughting at me)
    
       Thank you. For sure it will help.

                   Daniel


Daniel Osvaldo Caso
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Woodie and all:
                         Graupner has an extensive site with a choice for also  English:

https://shop.graupner.de/webuerp/servlet/AA?wgr=55
                   

                                                                     Daniel

Last edited on Fri Sep 28th, 2007 02:26 pm by

Daniel Osvaldo Caso
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You can get the English version if you click on the British flag.


Last edited on Fri Sep 28th, 2007 02:27 pm by

Daniel Osvaldo Caso
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Still better: if you click

                                 Graupner Modellbau: Home


you need just to choose laguage and will find an extremly detailed description of each part"receivers, speed controls, bateries, etc. And all with dimensions (in milimeters).

             O.K: I've found it but what now?: it is just chineese for me, even when I can read English very well!

             Come on Woodie: I am looking for the smaller sytem including de Li-po and I will start with a Fleischman Magic Train 0e steam loco (actualy two) . But I have no idea about what is usable and what isn't. Would you help me?

                     Daniel

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Daniel-I will look at the available stuff from these sites. I would imagine that anything will work as long as it has PROPORTIONAL forward and reverse speed control. As for the smallest...I would have to sit down with a ruler and check things out. As for batteries, remember that larger is better in that it will operate a given motor longer and supply the amperage the motor would need. Consider your trains also, how many cars do you want to pull, any grades?, how long do you want to run before needing a recharge...some questions to ponder. The Li-Poly batteries have the longest life and supply amazing power for the size. The boards are not the space problem, it's the batteries! This may not give you the answers you need, there are surely others who know more than I do. I have found what works for me and have stopped searching for the newest and smallest stuff.

SOMEBODY out there has all the answers, please leave us a message!

               Woodie

Daniel Osvaldo Caso
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Woodie:
             I see.... My problem is that after (not) wiring layouts since 1958 I choose for RCC just beacause its "simplicity" (...). But I don't understand any other electronic's measure units than volts and amps. , and the choice being so broad makes it  just as confusing for me as a spagetthy dish for a worm. But thank you any way. I will see...

                        Daniel

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HI ALL:
           From Mikewiz64 -On30Conspiracy- I've got this links to a page with lots of small and very small LiPo batteries. Well, if they are usable for me, my space problem would be solved and my Woolwich locos may run. But I don't know. So it would be  a real help if someone here, with knowledge about it would tell me wich are the smaller ones good for my locos. I will be using Mashima 1620 and  1624 motors and an average train will consist of a máximum of 16 axles (excluded the loco).
         

http://www.microflight.com/Online-Catalog/Batteries-and-Chargers/LP20-FR-Bahoma-Cell-with-5mm-Bahoma


http://www.microflight.com/Online-Catalog/Batteries-and-Chargers


                 Daniel

Mr. Wiz
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I'm Mikewiz64 from the On30conspiracy.

Remember guys, if you decide to use Lipos that they are a battery chemistry that requires the utmost respect. They can and I have personally seen them catch fire from improper use and charging.

Also, if you decide to get bare cells, (instead of pre-made battery packs) the battery terminals are aluminum and require some skill to solder wires to properly without ruining them.

You should also be prepared to inspect them on a regular basis. They can swell a little without showing any other outward signs that they are about to blow.

If you are using them and detect a sickening sweet smell, they are venting and need to be taken outside immediately if not sooner.

W C Greene
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Daniel-the 200mah cells would probably run your loco for maybe 1 hour or so. I am using 430 mah 2 cell (7.4 volts) and 800 mah 3 cell (11.1 volt) Thunder Power li-poly batteries in my stuff. The 2 sites have some very small batteries that will do OK in railcars, etc., but may not have the power you need for a loco hauling some cars. Team Losi has a very small 2 cell (7.4 volt) li-poly that may just work in smaller locos. I used to run with Lithium camera batteries and got great life. I built an On30 Ford rail truck which had a Falhauber motor and 80:1 gearhead and ran with a single 3.7 volt Lithium camera battery controlled by a very small, non-proportional r/c car board and the battery lasted the better part of ONE YEAR! The more amperage you can pack into a loco, the better. As I have said before, I can do without full cab detail in an r/c loco, the alternative is to have all that fine stuff and run off track power which is inferior to battery power. (that last statement will inspire some critical response, I am sure!)

            Woodie

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Daniel,

I can probably assist you with the battery selection if you can tell me the voltage your locos will need and the current they will draw under their most demanding load. I wish I had a feel for this for small locos, but at this point I really don't.

After that, you'll have to decide weather or not the size will be acceptable.

Keep in mind my comment about parallel wireing them to get the capacity of a single large battery with the convienience of locating a small battery in two or more seperate locations.... or serial wireing them for additional voltage.

Another thing to remember. The higher the capacity the higher the current that battery is capable of delivering. Also the higher the voltage the lower the current will be to achive the same watts at the motor shaft, this translates into cooler running batteries that will last longer per charge and will live longer.

Wiz

Daniel Osvaldo Caso wrote:
HI ALL:
           From Mikewiz64 -On30Conspiracy- I've got this links to a page with lots of small and very small LiPo batteries. Well, if they are usable for me, my space problem would be solved and my Woolwich locos may run. But I don't know. So it would be  a real help if someone here, with knowledge about it would tell me wich are the smaller ones good for my locos. I will be using Mashima 1620 and  1624 motors and an average train will consist of a máximum of 16 axles (excluded the loco).
         

http://www.microflight.com/Online-Catalog/Batteries-and-Chargers/LP20-FR-Bahoma-Cell-with-5mm-Bahoma


http://www.microflight.com/Online-Catalog/Batteries-and-Chargers


                 Daniel

Last edited on Thu Oct 4th, 2007 05:49 pm by Mr. Wiz

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I just read Mr Wiz's words about li-poly batteries. To date, I have had NO problems with these batteries. The batteries can be damaged by less than skillful handling and the charge rate should be as low as possible.  You don't need to solder the wires to the batteries, the wires can be rolled up in the aluminum tabs and a dab of epoxy will hold it all together. As with anything electrical, proper care should be used when using li-poly batteries. Different strokes...

           Woodie

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A charge rate as low as possible is kind of vague. In general, keep the charge rate to 1C unless the manufacturer specifies that they can be charged faster.

Example: 800 mAh battery charged at 1C will be charged at 0.8 amps. Make sure the charger properly detects the number of cells (Voltage). It must be a Lipo charger for this. Please don't use any old battery charger.

If you think I'm over stating Lipo's potential danger  have a look here.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209187&highlight=Lipo+Fire

Again, I'm a happy lipo user. I just want to make people aware of the potential danger if one isn't careful.

Wiz

Last edited on Thu Oct 4th, 2007 05:58 pm by Mr. Wiz

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250 MAH is the charge rate I use for everything. It takes a while, but is easier on the battery and your nerves.

         Woodie

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Great, Wiz!!! Thank you. I've been following the text very carefully and learnt a lot. I believe  that the warnings are not for fun.

      One question arised when reading the text: is says that "the reason" to choose Li-Po batteries is the difference in weight with NiCad and NiMh ones and explains that that is very important at flying. Well: my modeling is nor really, really prototypical but so far as flying locomotives I am not. At least not yet. Does it means that when aplied to trains there is no a real reason at choosing for  Li-po? This, again, would have serious consecuences for my modelling.

         Thank you.

                              Daniel

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One more thing: what about re- charging when using more than one batterie conected in serie? Do I charge them individualy (then they must be installed in a way that makes this possible) or at once (then they are permanent attached to each other)?

                                    Daniel

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I think you mean you charge them at 250 mA. Another critical thing charger needs to know is what voltage the battery is so that it can determine when the battery is full. You don't have to have a super expensive charger for that, but you're tempting fate if you don't have a charger that is specifically designed to charge Lipos.

W C Greene wrote:
250 MAH is the charge rate I use for everything. It takes a while, but is easier on the battery and your nerves.

         Woodie

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Daniel,

A good dedicated lipo charger will have the ability to detect how many batteries you have wired in series and as a safe lipo user, you should visually check to see that  the charger indeed properly detected the number of cells.

For example: A somewhat standard method of describing lipo batteries is like this 2S3P. That would refer to a lipo battery that is wired 2 cells Serial (2S) and 3 cells Parallel (3P). The charger will mainly be concerned with the 2S or 2 cells wired Serial because that determines the voltage of the battery. It should tell you it's charging a 2 cell battery.

So, a single Lipo cell would be 1S1P. Two cells wired in parallel would be 1S2P and two cells wired serial with two more cells wired parallel would be 2S2P and so on....

When I look at the power lead wires for my little On30 locomotives it seems to me that the current demands must be fairly small since the gauge of the wire is quite small. Still, you are looking to use some very small batteries, so it would be wise to know the actual current demand and choose your battery accordingly. This will allow you to get the most from your batteries. Besides, why wait extra time to re-charge if it's not necessary. I can tell you, that the manufacturer has already built a safety factor into his batteries. Adding to that by charging slower isn't giving you any more of a safety margin; it's just making you wait longer to get them charged.

When you get to a point where you know what your battery needs are you can begin to look for a charger. You should be able to get one that can handle these small batteries for well under $100 US.



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Daniel,

The weight thing obviously is refering to the weight of the batteries as it pertain s to flying a plane. Lighter flies better!

That said, you want small batteries for your small locos. The energy density of a Lipo battery is many times that of a NiCd battery and that also means you can have a much smaller battery with the same or more capacity of a NiCd battery of similar size.

Lipo batteries are what allows cell phones to be so small and light and still last for a long time on a single charge.

Daniel Osvaldo Caso wrote:
Great, Wiz!!! Thank you. I've been following the text very carefully and learnt a lot. I believe  that the warnings are not for fun.

      One question arised when reading the text: is says that "the reason" to choose Li-Po batteries is the difference in weight with NiCad and NiMh ones and explains that that is very important at flying. Well: my modeling is nor really, really prototypical but so far as flying locomotives I am not. At least not yet. Does it means that when aplied to trains there is no a real reason at choosing for  Li-po? This, again, would have serious consecuences for my modelling.

         Thank you.

                              Daniel

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Wiz:
       Well, that is very clear now. So Woodie's advice of using Li-Po's is confirmed.
       Your warnings about safety are already in my "system" so I need now some
       measurements on the motors to know exactly their needs at work. Nice, that is
       next step.

Thank you a lot.

                         Daniel

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Measureing the current demand under load of a loco pulling a train micht be a trick. I wish you luck and I hope you'll share your findings with the rest of us.

Cheers,

Wiz

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I will.

Cheers

                   Daniel

W C Greene
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OK-who has an "update" on the state of madness with radio control. I have been building a layout and associated junk and haven't "experimented" with any new stuff lately. There are some new, small li-poly batteries available now that would certainly fit into a Bachmann On30 Porter along with the board, and the same batteries will probably fit into many HO locos also. At the moment, I have only seen a 7.4 volt job that is about 1.25" long, .75" wide, and around 3/8" thick, but another cell could be wired in to provide 11.1 volts. One of these would fit into the Porter's bunker and the board in the cab roof. I can't give a running time, but it could be maybe a couple of hours between charges.  I have a buddy who installed a Banta "all weather" cab on his On30 Porter and found enough room to stuff a "deconstructed" 9 volt alkaline battery inside. With an engine crew hanging out and some junk aboard, nobody can even see the battery.

Stuff to think about..........Woodie

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As of this post there have 8215 views of this thread. Am I the only one who has tried on board battery RC?
I did a rude and crude lashup with the 0-4-0 that I'm working on, and couldn't be more pleased with the results. One of Woodies "sale" points was the elimination of wiring on the layout. Well, I thought yeah, it's not needed for propulsion, but wires will still be needed for switch machines. Now I know that Woodie hand throws his stub switches, but I was thinking that I wasn"t going to get up off my dead butt and walk 30 feet to throw no $&&%@?<+ switch!
It was only after a couple of trial runs that the REAL beauty of OBBRC dawned on me. You can make an engine run with the drivers just bearly turning, and the thing never stumbles, or stops. I run O std gage, and have two locos weighing about four pounds each, with all wheels grounded, as I use overhead wire, and pantographs. I never have had this control, except after running for a couple hours, and perhaps some cleaning at the onset. Even then, go on a piece of trackage that hasn"t been run on recently and it's back to herky-jerky.

I'm having so much fun watching the drivers SLOWLY turn, that I can see that throwing switches at the site of the action isn't any big deal, and I can shove a car into a siding that has cruddy track (and wire) without any problems.

Try it!!!! Even if you put all the stuff in a car following the engine, you will see how nice it works

VIVA EL WOODIE!

Herb:old dude:

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Herb-I told ya so! Running my railroad "manually" is (for me) the only way. You actually become "at one" with the train, you have to set the turnouts, uncouple, couple, etc... just like you'd have to do with the "real thing". I get real pleasure watching the loco slowly run along, the drivers following the uneven and wavy track just as the "prototype". Without having to be concerned with dirty track, dpdt switches, rotary switches, power routing turntables, short circuits, open circuits,  you know what I mean. I have been doing trains since I was a kid and I have never had as much fun as I am having now. Of course, I love the old-timey way of operation, no ctc or micro managing dispatchers, no 'lecktrified switch machines or interlocking situations..I could rave on and on, but I have trains to run and no timetables.

It's freezing here in Dallas, and I can't set up my layout outside so I'm getting antsy. Maybe I'll take my pokey lokies over to Mopman's big HO layout and screw with his mind. If he won't let me run on his track, I'll just put the trains on the floor and have a ball!            Have fun....Woodie

PS-see ya' on line Sunday night for some more craziness.. 

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W C Greene wrote:
Ken-yes it will work with the proper crystals. Bob (Trebor) set up his LOSI board with a 75MHZ crystal and the Futaba Attack transmitter also. All seems to work well since the boards and crystals are for 75MHZ AM operation. Let us know how you're doing.

        Woodie


Question to Woodie or someone.

I have been working on my first RC train. It is a McKeen Motor Car. I am using a Team Losi Micro-T ?? on the car and the Team Losi 7.4 V Li-Po battery. I took the car to my local hobby store RC place to show them and to buy a Futaba Attack transmitter. this afternoon. The transmitter they had was a 75 MHZ AM and they said I needed the 27 MHZ version. They put it on order and said they should get it in less than 14 days.

When I got back home I re-read all the posts here as I thought I remembered a comment about this same issue.

So my question is do I really need the 27 MHZ? version of the Futaba??. Also what do I do for crystals?

Thanks











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What a delightful old Kidder McKeen car you have. Since I have no real connection with using the 75 MHZ crystal in a transmitter set up for 27 MHZ, I would rather defer to Trebor's experience. Perhaps he will read this and offer the correct advice. The r/c guys I have talked to say "it can't be done", but "can't" never did anything!  Since you have a 75 on order, I suppose you might wait it out. One thing I noticed is the big old open frame motor that powers the car. You might connect up the Losi battery to the motor and see how long it runs the machine. The old motors suck up a lot of juice, but then you only have one truck powered and McKeens didn't usually pull cars, maybe a trailer, but certainly not a train of cars. My friend Mudge has an old Mantua 2-6-2 HO loco with r/c and it runs just fine with a 9 volt alkaline battery, maybe he gets a couple of hours per battery. Remember that you will need to totally isolate the motor brushes from the pickup system-one brush is common with the frame and that needs toi be disabled also. The little Losi board is very rugged and should have no problem handling the motor, I am just wondering how long the Li-Poly will run the motor. Good luck with the project, it looks like another cool thing being taken into the 21st century.

              Woodie

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I ran mine on 75MHZ. (Woodie owns it now since I switched to the CREAST)

I agree with Woodie about the battery running that motor. I'd test it first.

I also agree about the RC guys. They don't have a clue about what we're trying to do. I even had one tell me on the phone that what I was trying to do was impossible even though I was running a train while I was talking to him.

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Bob-I don't think I ever thanked you for the Losi board. My memory is lousy these days so if I did, then here's more thanks...By the way, how do you like the Crest system? My friend Travis loves his stuff, I wonder if Crest has that unit available again or is it still in the "works"???  A fellow told me that he had heard of a "radio control system for model trains" but didn't know who made it. He said that it can be used even in N scale...now if there will be great advances in battery sizes (smaller with same power output). I will "search" the web for any mentions of such a system...may be he was thinking about Crest?

After all these years, I am still engrossed in r/c for my trains. How else can you have an "outdoor" layout that runs when you just switch on the transmitter and receiver and "git after it"!!!!! Of course, I still have to run a section car first to clear the line of rocks and tree limbs..but that's all.

                  Woodie

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Woodie,

I don't want to get up on the soapbox but I really like the Crest system better than using the RC stuff. The RC stuff does work and I'm glad you got me into it.

I'll check and see what is up with Crest.

Bob

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Hi Woodie and Trebor,

Thanks for the quick reply. I have several of the McKeen Motor Cars (Ken Kidder) and one of the McKeen Passenger Cars (Overland Models, Inc).




I really like them and decided they will be my first RC trains. They also have enough space to mount everything in them without a lot of trouble. The Losi board is insulated from the chassis and the battery wiring to the motor is working fine.

I did a test run of the motor on the McKeen Motor Car off the Losi battery before I installed the Losi board. It ran the motor fine but without any speed control it ran it very fast.

Back to the question about the 75 MHZ vs the 27 MHZ. I just called the hobby store and explained that someone had been able to run his (Losi board) train with his 75 MHZ Futaba Attack. The person said that if you are close to the RC thing - the train and not around other RC stuff that is possible. He said it is sort of like listening to one station on a car radio and driving past a radio station that broadcasts on a different frequency and that frequency interferes or over powers the station your radio is set on while you are close to it. In my house I could get away with using the 75 MHZ but the 27 MHZ would be the best if I had it. It is a better match and would give me better service.

So I wait for the 27 MHZ Futaba Attack to come in. I want to play now.

Last edited on Sun May 11th, 2008 02:36 pm by Bill Fornshell

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Hi Woodie, I'm in England from the FS32NG group. We've spoken before. I only just discovered this excellent thread.

My angle on R/C is maybe a bit different.  I don't have any existing motors or locos. I make my own and they're small!  Lister Auto Truck in 1/32nd scale using 18" gauge for my Havengore Winkle Mines layout. 

Now my question is this.  Can I use the whole kit'n'caboodle from , say, a micro car INCLUDING the motor, so I don't have to buy extra stuff.  I'm on an extremely limited budget and can only buy locally, because shipping is too expensive, so I'm faced with finding stuff at Sunday markets, boot fairs, etc. All the swapmeets have dried up round here and they're all new trains and diecasts these days.

I don't have a difficulty making anything. Indeed I make everything to keep the price down.  My stock is limited and lightweight, being mainly made from Pearwood.  I have no grades as it's a coastal layout and the estuaries of the county of Essex are FLAT, for miles!

I don't wish to moan about our situation, it's just the way it is, a legacy of living on a boat for a while, so no car, no credit card (in England if you live on a boat you're officially regarded as a vagrant.  Ain't that great?!!). 

Have you or any of your R/C chums tried the whole innards of a cheapo toy for propulsion.  If it works, it would be the cheapest possible way to go for NG, if not the longer trains of Mainline RRs.

I'd appreciate your advice here as Die Konig von R/C!!

Cheers, Paglesham

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Paglesham wrote:

Can I use the whole kit'n'caboodle from , say, a micro car INCLUDING the motor, so I don't have to buy extra stuff.  

I don't see any reason why that wouldn't work. I'm sure Woodie will be able to expand on that.

Please post some pictures of your work.

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Yes, the tiny r/c car stuff will work for you. Some years back, my first r/c "thing" was an On30 Model T railtruck built from a single speed r/c car. I used the receiver, motor, and gears and also the little rechargable batteries from the car. All the equipment was stowed under a tarp covering the bed of the truck. I mounted the motor and some of the car's gears on an old MDC/Roundhouse HO Shay truck that I had. The truck ran well, if a mite fast, and inspired me to continue on. I no longer have that truck, it flew off the layout and hit the floor, but it is well remembered. My 1:32 Model T railcar(shown somewhere on freerails and on the fs32ng photo section) has one of the little car receivers. The "new" car has a 7.4 volt rechargable lithium-polymer battery and an old Grandt Line 80:1 geared motor. The single speed receiver is hidden under the car's boot(trunk) and with the geared motor it runs at a sedate 5-7 smph-taking maybe 15 minutes to cover the Mogollon Railway on inspection runs. Apparently, the almost microscopic board tolerates the 7+ volts and I am very happy with the result. One fellow questioned why I didn't use a proportional speed control, but I replied that a real Model T probably would be driven in 2nd gear all the time on my railroad so it doesn't need variable speed control. So, to answer your question-YES, IT CAN BE DONE.        Woodie

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Thanks Woodie.

Trebor, if I sent you a picture of the brake van now all you'd see is slobber and tooth marks.

Cheers, Martin

Paglesham
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I wish I could post pictures, but I don't have all those photo-bucket things. I'm used to clicking "attach"!!

Paglesham

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I just sent my "idea" to the posting photos thread. Good luck.  Woodie

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I've just tried photo-bucket and it first said "sorry, not in your area" then it let me click upload, but 10 minutes later was only 33% loaded on the first picture.  Then it wouldn't cancel.  I'm an impatient devil.

It might be because my daughter's downloading some crap film in the next room, so I'll try again later.

Paglesham

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Martin-

Did you reduce the picture size to 640 x 480 before trying to upload it to photobucket? Cuts down on the wait time, but dial up service is s  o    s  l  o  w

E mail coming- has address problem first try

Herb:old dude:

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Herb, I don't know what size the pics are, but I always knock 'em down to about 450K.  3x2 or 4x3 ish.

We're on broadband, but a slowish 2Mb as we're well away from the exchange, about as far as poss. before the next one appears.

If you're having difficulty with my e-mail (recently yahoo have been a pain) I'll PM you with another one.  But hotmail won't attach my pictures because I don't have some piece of ether or other. Tried downloading it. Nuttn' happened, as usual, so i have to send pics via yahoo, which it always does.

I believe the current Americanism for that is "Go figure":Hmm:

Martin

Last edited on Wed Aug 27th, 2008 02:22 pm by Paglesham

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I have a McKeen car, but I believe it's of an earlier batch than yours. Can you tell me is the trailer car you show from Overland Models in production or do I find (?) one off eBay. 

My McKeen was built by Ken Kidder. It has a totally different motor setup, but it runs sweetly and is DC at the moment, I plan to RC it so it will run with my other stuff.  I'd like a trailer car painted with my Texas & Tehuacana logo and orange/cream and brown. HO of course.

Do you know of anyone who'd sell a trailer or any place I can get one. 

My name is Bill Caldwell. I know very little about 'puters and less about RC, relying on a friend to help me. I'm 85 and been in HO RRding. My e-mail is: mudge85@prodigy.net. Come get on freetails with a few others about RC on Sunday evenings at 9PM on Flashchat. It gets pretty wild sometime.

BC

 

 

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Mudge-the fellow who has the McKeen car is Gardenville from a previous posting. I wonder if he ever got the car working, I'd sure like to know.

Mudge(Bill) is one of the first guys who saw my r/c locos and has believed in the idea from the outset. Others said that I was "messin' with the devil" and "crazy" for not going dcc and wanting to try something new but Bill was always there with helpful suggestions and support. Bill has not gone totally wireless, but I believe he has THE ONLY HO scale Mantua 2-6-2 prairie in Texas, maybe the whole country that is run with onboard battery and radio control. If there is anybody else with something like Bill's loco, then yes, I'd like to know about that also!      Woodrow

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Woodie, guys, my dear wife bought me a micro R/C car today from a charity shop and all was there, but it won't take a charge.  So, is it a case that the tiny cylindrical battery can break down?  There was some crumby, chrystaline stuff around it and in the positive end gap between the contact and the shrinkwrap (lime green).  Everything seems clean and fine although it's a devil clipping it to the charge point on the bottom of the controller. 

The motor seems to be one of those micromotors which can be had from Nigel Lawton in Britain and a few others. It runs fine.  The charge light on the back comes on, but dimly, even with new batteries.  When you click a button to operate it the right hand light comes on, but nuttn' 'appens.

I'm thinking it should go back because I have no idea what all the electronics is all about and some of the wires are the finest I've seen.  Iknow the price is nothing compared to the value of the micro-motor, but if i ain't an electronics whizz, I'm stuck without the R/C board/battery. charging stuff.

Cheers, Martin

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Martin-try attaching a AA 1.5 volt alkaline battery with some tape to the wires that go to the tiny "capacator" battery-detach that first. Be sure you have positive to pos., etc. and then try the little car mechanism. These little circuits don't have an on/off switch but you could add one in line with the negative battery wire. Just to see if it works...keep the batteries in the transmitter and hook up the AA to the board and you should see some action when you press the button. Good luck and let us know how it does.

         Woodie

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I just ordered a Team Losi 1:36 Stadium Truck (http://www.atomicmods.com/Products/Team-Losi-LOSB0230-Micro-T-1-36-Stadium-Truck__12953.aspx) after running the idea past RC Guru Woodie. Total cost with shipping included came up to $88.

I'm hoping to convert my On30 Bachmann gas mechanical with the gear as I cannibalize the truck (was cheaper than buying needed items seperately)... but if not, then I know it will be installed in the 7/8ths critter that I am beginning to build. As I mentioned to Woodie in a PM what I find surprising is that many of the folks over on the 7/8ths Forum shy away from RC. Doesn't make sense to me since the trains are bigger and could easily be equiped with the newer, smaller RC gear being offered these days.

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Woodie, not long after I left that post the little thing gave a whizz at its wheels and took a full charge and went zooming all over the place for a good run.  I reckon if I can transfer its gearing to an extra worm and wheel on the rail axle it should have a good slow speed.

Perhaps not on an auto truck, because there's no-where to hide all the stuff. I'll have to knock up a plastic loco to keep weight down.  The auto-truck was already started in brass, so that'll have to be left as "on shed junk". I'm very wary of the tiny wires. They are the smallest I've ever seen!

With that in mind, will it be OK to remove the tiny wires to the steering mechanism?  Obviously I don't need that.  I know this thing is not speed controllable, but if I gear it right it should just trundle slowly like the real ones did.

Thanks for the help. I'll keep you posted.  The weather's crap today so I might get some time on it.  Wettest, dullest August on record apparently.

Martin

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Martin-just carefully cut the tiny steering wires making sure nothing touches and the cuts are clean. That's all you need to do. Have fun..  Woodie

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Aye,aye, Cap'n.  Will do.  I've designed a body which has the right look and  is plausible for a re-worked Lister, but which will give me a lot more space. No point in making my first R/C effort more difficult than need be.

I'll be making it in plastic card to keep weight down.  The motor is only one of those tiny 4x10mm. jobbies.  Gearing is everything.  The brass one I started will have to be relegated to "scenery".  You know, up on blocks with a tarpaulin over the engine bit.

That's what I love about narrow gauge.  Pretty much do as you like!

Martin

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Woodie, the bodie's done for the first R/C experiment.

I was wondering if I could get away with plastic for the frames for the loco axle.  I'm keeping all the little car's gearing and then adding a tiny worm drive as well to get the gearing right down. The car has 12:1 spur gears and my worm is around 30:1, so I'll get 360:1.

What I was wondering was could I get away with reproducing the very simple system of "popping" the axle into keyhole bearings in some plastic frames fixed to the existing car framework.  If so, would that lube idea work on standard plasticard of say, 60 thou.?

Martin

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Martin-I say go for it. In a small mechanism that is operated at a slow speed, there should be very minimal wear over time. With proper lube, all the better. My "experiments" with the syn auto transmission fluid have been positive. I don't believe plastic will be harmed by the stuff, or probably any other plastic compatable lube. The little r/c cars we are using have metal axles running in plastic frames and they are ment for "high speed" operation so I don't see any problems here. Wow-a 360:1 reduction...man, that little devil ought to really run s l o w.....Good luck.. Woodie

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Thanks, Woodie, I may try the R/C work next week as the weather forecast is not promising for working on the boat.  News as it happens!

Martin

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..In the November issue of MODEL AIRPLANE NEWS the is a "road test" of three RC micro airplanes- electric powered (20MAh LiPo)two channel proportional, (throttle and rudder). All three seem to have the same motor, battery, and radio gear. They are 3.5, 4.5 and 9.5 INCHES wingspan, and- sit down-2.6 for the smallest, and 4 for the other two GRAMS, READY TO FLY!!!!!

You get the plane, with 4mm x4mm motor, geared 5-1) battery, receiver and transmitter (which also charges the flight battery) every thing needed to fly, or better yet to cram into a TINY loco. If you go the later route, send the plane , after you strip out the useful pieces, to Paglesham  for Alex to chew on.

Will someone please get Mr Greene a towel? I think he is drooling.

The radio is 900MHz, and has 300 ft range, uses 4 AA batteries
The receiver is16x9x3.5 mm. esc good for up to 2 amps. input voltage2.8-4.5VDC 127 step proportional

And the whole thing LISTS for $150 + $16 FedX, made by Plantraco.     plantraco.com

RC with sticks! Stick with RC!


Herb:old dude:






Last edited on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 09:12 pm by Herb Kephart

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OK Herbie-sounds neat...but remember...airplanes don't have reverse! Now I suppose that one could build a really funky railcar that had the reverse gear stripped and could only run fo-wards. That sounds like something I could do...Oh no... How about this-somehow make such railcar and have a little "jack" type device that is controlled by the unused control servos which comes down and the railcar gets turned around...there ARE such things! Oh no...No...no.......Martin's little Lister would be a candidate for this technology, I am sure there are/have been lokies without reverse...the mind boggles.

                        Boudreaux
BY THE WAY-what the %^&& are you doing reading MAN? I read Flying Scale Models...a veddy English rag that seems to be the mouthpiece for scratchbuilt scale planes. Yipes!

Last edited on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 09:28 pm by W C Greene

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Right, o noble reader of English literature, but I am thinking that with stuff that small I can take one of their "actuators" and work a itty bitty DPDT.

That receiver is the width of a #11 Exacto blade, and half the length


Chardonnay:old dude:

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Well, guys, thanks for the thought!  I'm sure Archie the pup will love hi-tech.  Trouble is that small it'll go down without touching the sides!

A 4x4mm motor is getting crazy, isn't it?  And I'm sure you could work a wee switch with the rudder servo, for backuds.

I'm afraid 150 bucks is way over my budget, but have fun and send some pictures.

Martin

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Woodie, firstly I hope you're safe from Ike and his windy hordes.

Secondly, could you repeat the stuff about tiny connectors for me?  Sorry to be a pain.  I have to take the charging positions for both car and transmitter to a remote point because the plate contacts as built won't connect when it's all modded for a loco, so I need to take wires from both and then a wee connector.  Is there a special kind you use?  Otherwise I might be able to get something from RS spares, (used to be Radiospares.)

I finished the yard office t'other day so I'll take some pics and try to get them on here, like you and Herb directed.

Cheers, Martin

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Martin-give me a little while to come up with the "fix" on connectors. It will be simple-a simple mind is working on the problem...I will send my ideas in a while..keep the faith.

          Woodie

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OK Marrtin-here goes. I don't know if they are available overseas, but I use MINIATRONICS micro 2 pin plugs for such things. The wire is very small and the connectors are about as small as you can get. Plus the things are already wired and you just need to connect them up.I trust this is the info you are needing. Keep the faith.....Woodie

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Woodie is right. Those Micro Plugs are great.

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That's great Woodie, thanks.

I knocked up a plasticard "chassis" to house the car bits en bloc yesterday and, clearances allowing here and there it worked!  It actually crawled along at VERY slow speed.  The gearing worked out at 240:1, not the higher 360 I thought earlier and it was perhaps too slow still.  So as I now have some confidence in fiddling about with the tiny stuff I'm going to make as lightweight a brass chassis as possible with one stage of the gearing left out.  That should sort out the speed problem.  It's a shame it's not proportional, but I can't afford that.

But at least I got movement on a wee bit of track I made.  We're getting there.

Cheers, Martin

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You won't believe this, but early this morning, somehow, the workshop door was opened and the damned dog got in again! and dragged the central core of the R/C car off the bench.  I found the motor, battery and gears untouched on the floor, but the black bit that holds it all together had gone and the R/C board with it.  I then found the black bit, well chewed and presented it to my dear wife, who, feeling a tad guilty, perhaps, went out in the garden and actually found the board, apparently undamaged!  He'd managed to chew through the wires, but leave them attached to the board!

So now, everything is well hidden away!  I'm now designing a wee chassis that will take everything neatly and allow access to the battery and one of Woodie's micro plug'n'sockets for charging.

If you want to see some interesting stuff on micro motors check this site.

http://www.nigellawton009.com/VeeTipper.html

I don't know why "V tipper", but link through for some very neat stuff on tiny drives.  Belts, friction, etc.

Cheers, Martin

Last edited on Sun Sep 14th, 2008 03:21 pm by Paglesham

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Finally managed to get down to Oklahoma City briefly to pick up the AristoCraft motorblock (I've moved to modeling in 7/8ths scale) and Team Losi truck. The plan is to strip the Losi down of it's components and be installed in the critter I plan on building with the Aristo block as the foundation.

The Aristo block has a 2-3/8 inch (6 cm) wheelbase and from what others have told me is a very good running unit. it definitely has some weight to it.


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My buddy Boureaux is correct in the statement that batteries are the big space taker-upper. But consider this- the smaller the rest of the stuff is the more room for the battery- right? Woodie likes the Kyosho boards, because they are a little smaller than the Losi.

Koysho left, Losi right should have put in a size reference





Woodie says that the Koysho boards are in the $100 range now, Losi's are less than $50. He dismisses boards meant for aircraft because "airplanes don't back up". Well some can- part of a airobatic routine is a tail slide, where the plane is pointing straight up, hanging on its prop, power is lessened, and the plane flys (actualy falls) backward.  Now I don't want MY trains to go straight up or down, but going backwards is pretty essential. So, if we get an aircraft board that has electronic speed control - hereafter ESC, meant for an electric powered plane, we just need a way to reverse the motor OK? There is an outfit in Canada that makes radio gear for micro airplanes- Here is one that they sell with a 3 1/2" wingspan





The black thing under the wing is the whole receiver. A tiny battery magneticaly snaps on the two gold colored studs.





A closer view. Note the little black and tan thing sitting on the ruler





That is, believe it or not, a DPDT relay. Available with a 4.5, 5. 9. or 12 volt coil, and contacts good for FIVE amps. It is aprox 6 X 6 X 10 Millimeters in size, and less than $3. Now the airplane boards (and the car boards too) have a place to plug in one or more servos to steer etc. Hook this relay there, and run the output going to the motor through the DPDT and WALLA, you have reverse. combine this little switch with the board from the airplane, and you are still under $55, and have a receiver less than half the size of the Koysho. If you choose a slightly larger board that they make (and is good for 2 amp output)  and you save ten bucks!

This system wont work with your "normal" 27 MHz transmitter as it works on 900MHz, but they sell a transmitter for about $60, I think. A benifit to 900 MHz is that the higher the frequency, the shorter the optium ariel lenght. You can, and Woodie and I do, use much shorter than recomended antenna lengths, because we dont need much range, but the lengths that we use are much closer to what would be ideal for 900

Usual disclaimer- I have no fimancial intrest in the company.

Questions?


Herb:old dude:
.

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OK Herbie-I know there are such things as aircraft boards with reverse...but I will let YOU tell the r/c flyers you know that you are using air freq's for your trains! Actually, I don't give a hoot what freq you use, but I gotta live with these people and I don't want any craaaaaaap! Besides, I have all the r/c stuff I will ever need, so it don't matter anyway. If newer, smaller batteries come along, I will try them, but to change out what I have (Kyosho boards), I would have to take my nice lokies apart and that ain't gonna happen.

Before you tell the r/c flyers that you run on their freqs, do you have your will made out yet? Hardee har har har.....Woodhead

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AW Woodsie - I wasn't suggesting that you scrap what you got, heck it works- if it ain't  broke etc. etc.but there seems to a bunch of people in the RR world that might try RC, except that their equipment is too small for the car boards.

If you say 900 is an air frequency, OK it's an air frequency. But Legal or not for ground use, Plantraco says that the max range is 100 yards- so who am I going to shoot down? No way the RC air people could get hurt.

Now I know that you are a good boy scout, and wouldn't think of parking a non running vehicle in a residential area, for example. I on the other hand, usually don't steal from the neighbors, or kill people I like- other than that LOOK OUT


Herbert:old dude:

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Herbie-what the heck is 900? I'm talking about 72 MHZ, of course, the plane guys are on 2.4 GHZ now so all that old jazz is, I suppose, just a buncha malarkey. As for distance of reception, since I walk along with the loco, I am NEVER (?) more than 2-3 feet away. Besides, I need to be there if the stinkin' thing decides to "take to the woods". Once, I forgot to reset the throttle trim on #2 Rudy, and from about 15 feet away, I watched as Rudy went off the turntable in S L O W motion and crashed to the canyon below, about a scale 130 feet. Now, I turn off the loco if I am goofing off somewhere else, I won't have to watch that again.    Woodrow

PS-I have bought a better motor home that runs! So, someday I will arrive on your street and boy, will you be suprised!

Last edited on Fri Oct 3rd, 2008 08:05 pm by W C Greene

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Woodie with wheels!

900 is 900MHz, which is what the plantraco stuff operates on. All the info says max range is 300 feet.  Perhaps its a garage door freq, or cordless phone- I dont know, but I'm guessing that  it's one of those things that is multi use as long as the TX power is low since they keep mentioning the short range.

Guess I better stop feeding the dogs, so that they will be happy to see you when you come.


Herbie

Bill Fornshell
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Hi All,

I have a Plantraco set up and it can control 3 things. One that controls the propellor or train motor - only forward, and two that can control two servos or forward and backward - but - at half power. That is really slow.

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Hi, Gardenville~~~~~~~~~~~~

In Dallas, I've been watching all the postings in hopes of reaching you to find out a little more about your McKeen cars. I have always admired them full sized and if you are interested you might look at "railcars, critters" or some similiar thread. Also I' m slightly into HO RC having a Mantua Prairie so fitted. Woodie Greene who lives in my back yard in a motor coach is a heavy experimenter as you will discover.

Actually I'm writing because I'd like to know more about the Overland Models McKeen trailer you have. I have a very early model McKeen that runs as smoothly as ANY locomotive even present day ones and it's DC(for the time being). I'm wondering if you'd care to part with the trailer or tell me where I could locate one  Is Overland still in business? I'm 86 years old and not very able to understand computers the way I used to. Stroke wiped out most of my skills in that department.

I'm known as Bill Caldwell or mudge85@prodigy.net.

Cheers, BC

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gardenville~~~~~~~~~~~~

I e-mailed you a letter referring to your McKeen cars on page 25 of this thread. Would you mind looking it up ?

BC

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Hi Mudge85 (Bill),

I have a very active McKeen Thread at "trackside modeler":

http://tracksidemodeler.com/index.php

The Thread is called:

"All Things McKeen - The McKeen Motor Car & The McKeen Switcher"

http://tracksidemodeler.com/index.php/topic,1699.0.html

You and anyone with an interest in the McKeen Motor Car and other McKeen engines and cars should enjoy reading the thread.

I believe you need to join to read the different threads - it is free.

I played with RC on one of the two brass McKeen Motor Cars I have but it ran so poor RC did do much for it. You know Woodie's first rule for RC, if it doesn't run good.

I rebuilt both my brass models and made new chassis, put in different motors, added DCC to both and have LokSound - Goose - sound in one of them, new track pickups and LED's for the lights.

They now both run really great and the one with sound - sounds so good.

I have a fleet (if 15 growing to 18 can be called a fleet) of really great resins versions of the 55' McKeen Motor Car. Some of them will get RC.

I have McKeens in several scales both bought and scratch built, "N, HO, HOn3, and On30". I have 25 total McKeen Motor Cars and a couple of Baggage and Passenger Cars. I also stratch built three McKeen Switchers in On30. They are not all running yet.

Stay tuned and sometime in December or January something should come out about the availability of a McKeen Passenger Car kit. Then everyone that wants one - sort of cheap - should have a chance to get one or more of them. Production expected to be low but so will the price.

I have nothing to do with the company doing this, just someone I buy stuff from.

I haven't gotten a message or email yet. I will try and send you an email.

Thanks for your interest.

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ebtm3 wrote:
...Koysho left, Losi right should have put in a size reference





Herb,
The Team Losi board on the right, is it from a Losi Mini-T or Losi Micro-T car?

Your Idea with the model-plane board is very good. So you have the full range of your stick on the transmitter for one direction and thus I think a finer control.

Problem here is, that the outputs from the board are made for servo controling. You can't easily replace the servo with the relay. For this, there are special boards for switching operations on the RC market, which set the receiver signal to a voltage on/off operation. I have looked for this some time ago in the beginning of my RC-activities.

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The Losi board is from a MicroT car. It measures 43 X 31 X 13 MM. Plugging the receiver crystal into it increases the 31 MM dimension to 34 MM, But Woodie has had success remote mounting the crystals if space for the board is minimal. One thing that I have found out the hard way is that they were originally meant to run on 6 volts. The manufacturer then "uprated" the cars to two LiPo cells (7.3 V), and this appears to be the maximum that can be used. I have a collection that I tried on 3 cells and the extra voltage did them in.

I found out after I had posted the information about the relay that it couldn't be a direct hookup to a receiver servo output, but some years back I saw a radio controlled boat that the builder had the lights hooked to a servo connection on the receiver. I asked about he did it and he told me it was just a couple transistors, but I don't know enough about electronics to try.

The little MicroFlight board, steers the plane with a tiny coil that is attracted to one of two small button magnets. I believe that the steering output is a series of pulses of opposite polarity. Longer positive pulses steers one way, longer negative the other, equal length is center. It would seem to me that a diode to block one polarity would give a signal of varying strength of the opposite polarity, which could energize   the relay when the voltage got high enough. This board runs on only one LiPo cell, so finding a motor with enough power at that low voltage might be a problem, without overloading the board amps wise.



Herb:old dude:

Last edited on Thu Jan 1st, 2009 05:45 pm by Herb Kephart

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Herb-looking at the photo of the boards, the one on the left is not a Kyosho board. I don't know what make it is, but it is almost the same size as the Kyosho board except that it is a 2 piece affair, the Kyosho isn't. As for power handling, the Losi is probably pushing it for 11.4 volt li poly power, but I have been running a Kyosho board & 11.4 battery in one of my Shays for several years without any problems and we use a Kyosho board in Mopman's GP switcher with 11.4 volts also. I have all the boards I will need now, but it would nice to be able to find more...at a reasonable price. There are those who are waiting for the newest r/c stuff to come along and while that is great news, remember that most high tech stuff like r/c becomes "old hat" in no time. I try to recommend jumping right in and going r/c with what is here now...tomorrow may never come!

That's the latest news from beyond the Mogollon Rim.......

                      Woodrow
PS-there is a size comparison of a Kyosho board and Thunder Power li-poly battery in the R/C INSTALLATION IN A PORTER info here in the r/c section.

Last edited on Thu Jan 1st, 2009 09:47 pm by W C Greene

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Woodie- I took a look again- and you are right, as usual. The two piece board is LocoLink. As you know the LocoLink system worked fine for me, I just couldn't get used to the push button control, Plus there is some fiddling to program the TX to the RX, which always meant that the book had to come out followed by the expelitives.

Eric-UK  Are you still around? If so, can you shed any light on how to take the output from a receiver, that is meant to work a servo, and convert it to a off-on signal? Re-reading past posts, it seems that you may have the background, and the knowledge, to solve this problem- see my post from 1-1-09 5:13pm


Herb, not on the rim of anything, but most of the way through a delightful bottle of Chardonnay

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Woodie,

I think with your 40Mhz RC System you have a very reliable technic, develloped and improved on the RC segment over years. Do you have PCM transmitters?

On (large scale) exhibitions the problem can occur that someone else uses one of my frequencies. All the Life Steam guys work on that frequency range. In my locos it would take much effort to change chrystals. So I avoided this technic.

With 2,4Ghz this problem disappears.
Kyosho has already 2,4 Ghz boards
http://www.henimo.de/RC-Cars-Mini-118-130/Kyosho-Mini-Z/Mini-Z-MR-02-24-GHz/Kyosho-Mini-Z-RC-Einheit-RA-18-24-Ghz::6630.html
A problem may be the transmitter. There are only this special car-racing transmitter provided separately by Kyosho.

Regards,

Juergen

W C Greene
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Juergen-I am using the "antiquated" 27MHZ band, in which there are 8 distinct frequencies. Most of my "favorite" locomotives are on the same frequency, I can operate one and turn it off and run another without changing the frequency crystals, If I have operators over, then I have three other different frequencies in three other locos-any of which can be run at the same time without interference. The new 2.4 GHZ stuff is better than what I have, but my stuff works well so I won't be changing systems...for now. The KYOSHO board in the link is 2.4 GHZ and therefore could be operated with almost any 2.4 GHZ transmitter. My old Kyosho 27 MHZ boards are controlled by 3 transmitters not made by that company, I don't just use Kyosho transmitters. In fact, my old JR transmitter runs the Kyosho boards as well if not better than a Kyosho transmitter would. What Herb & I like are the sticks that operate the "old style" transmitters, we both have no love for pushbuttons on transmitters. Herb has his reasons, I will state again-I have been in many steam, diesel, and electric locomotives-real ones-and none of them had pushbuttons to control the speed & direction. Each type of locomotive has(had) a lever...or stick...to control those functions, why should my models be any different? Just my opinion. In my case, I love being able to control my loco, adjusting the speed as necessary and having a center off, or "deadman's switch" which stops the loco if I let go of the throttle. You will find that if you run r/c locos, you will come to want and need this feature. If all you want to do is watch the loco run around and around, then just put batteries in it controlled by an on and off switch. The use of radio control is a "hands on" thing, and it has changed my attitude to modeling in more than one way. I have been in this hobby for 50 years now and "discovering" r/c is the best thing I have done. Keep having fun, it only gets better!      Woodie 

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W C Greene wrote:
The KYOSHO board in the link is 2.4 GHZ and therefore could be operated with almost any 2.4 GHZ transmitter.  

No, that's the problem with the new 2,4 Ghz technic. The several manufacturers have develloped their own 2,4 Ghz systems which are not compatible.

So using a 2,4 Ghz Kyosho board means you need a Kyosho transmitter. (At least, I haven't found contrary information by now.)

Only the Team Losi boards are made to work with Graupners 2,4 Ghz Spektrum transmitters. But a pity there are only mini-t cars available for 2,4 Ghz, not the micro-t cars.

Regards,

Juergen

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Woodie,

your argumentation about the stick transmitters made me thinking.

As I have been anyway keen on trying 2,4 Ghz technic, I bought a 2,4 Ghz 2-stick transmitter for testing purposes today. The seller had one very good Spectrum DX6 left. As is not the up to date model, he offered it for a very good price, so that I couldn't resist. :)

The including receiver (4cmx4cm) is not the smallest I could get (there is a wonderful small nano-receiver for the Spectrum transmitters), but ok for testing. Now I'm waiting for a small motor controller I have ordered, then I can start testing and comparing with my "Train Control" system.

Regards,

Juergen

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When using an Airplane transmitter, the throttle channel is usually on the left stick in the US (mode 2) and the stick is non-centering. By using the left stick you would have a finer control over the speed range of the locomotive in the forward direction, and then use the servo reversing switch on the xmitter to give you the same range of control in reverse. One small problem with the airplane system is there is no provision for braking as there is with the surface systems. With my surface xmitter and esc, I pull the trigger back to move forward, and after gaining speed, moving the trigger back to the neutral position will apply braking. To enter reverse I push the throttle away from me and when I need to brake just move the throttle back to neutral. Amount of braking and trigger position to apply can be set up and controlled by the radio. However, as pointed out earlier, some like the deadman approach on the right stick where it is self centering.

One thing to keep in mind, that most of the 72mhz frequencies are set aside for aircraft, and should not be used for surface vehicles. 27 mhz is for surface and air both, as is 2.4 ghz. Micro-Ts and radios from any surface vehicle are legal to use, but the systems from the mini aircraft are not, unless they're on 27mhz or 2.4ghz.

For those with deep pockets, spectrum makes a Parkflyer receiver that is extremely small and light, and I have discovered that receivers for aircraft (spectrum) are about 1/2 the cost of surface receivers and have much shorter antennea with all the same functionality. On any xmitter with servo reversing functions, it is easy to replace the stock slide switch (normally hard to reach) with a front mounted toggle. Or if using an xmitter with toggle switches for functions you're not using, just move the reversing funtion (wires) to there. Right now I'm researching esc size for surface vehicles, trying to find the smallest full function unit available.

Air esc's should be avoided as they have no reverse function as normally used, I will check to see if the servo reverse will work there also. That's one advantage of using Micro-T units, the receiver and esc are combined into one unit. Some of the Micro Aircraft on sale now come with 2.4ghz radios and use a combined unit also.

Since my layout is still undergoing construction, I purchased an On30 train set to set up and experiment with RC. It looks like RC is going to be fun again :P whoever would have thought I'd be breeding trains and planes to get the best of both.

Ha!  jim :cool:


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Jim- Check out  http://www.plantraco,com.--they have a TINY receiver/esc. that will handle up to two amps, has 127 steps and has an output for rudder that appears to be a series of pulses of alternating polarity that works an "actuator" rather than a convential servo. The actuator is a 1/8" coil of hair fine wire, that is attracted to small stationary magnets. Equal polarity pulses center the rudder, longer pulses of one polarity give rudder movement. My plan is to try to use this to drive a micro DPDT relay.  I'm going to try this, as soon as some ordered stuff arrives. Look on page 28 of this thread for pix of this stuff. I may end up with smoke for my efforts, I'm rather good at that!

One benefit is that the RX only needs a dipole antenna 78mm long.

One problem is that the board is designed to operate on 3.7 volts (one LiPo cell)

The frequency is 900 something (I assume Mhz) and they keep emphasizing the range is limited to 100 meters. I have no idea what else shares this freq., but I have never seen it mentioned as a air only freq. either.

Herb:old dude:

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Herb,

I'm familiar with the Plantraco equipment from my efforts at micro aviation, but I'd rather have proportional control for throttle. As of now, the smallest standalone reversible surface esc I've found is about .9" square by .3" tall, doesn't include receiver though. Some of the micro avaition guys have programmed chips to act as receiver/esc combinations and have actually brought the weight of the aircraft to less than 1 gram (published in, I think, Flying Models mag).

I have a micro heli on 2.4 that weighs 1 oz with battery, and a parkflyer on 2.4 that weighs the same. These guys use 70 mah lipo batteries which would not pull a train very far. Since I am awaiting a new motor for one of the planes, I guess it could be the subject of experimentation. My concern would be the allowable input voltage being enough to move equipment, and if it is possible to get a reverse to work. Being a "brick" construction I may not be able to separate the receiver voltage in from the esc voltage out to enable a standalone esc to handle a higher voltage. Ie 9 volts in, with a drop to 3.1 for the receiver, and then 9 to the esc for powering the loco.

Looking at taking a 2.4 xmitter apart and taking what I need out and putting it into a smaller more ergonomic "throttle box", a full sized xmitter is not what I want to use for trains. I like the wheel concept from my car racing experience, but as you say, a throttle stick would be more prototypical, and easier to work with.

Intend to begin dismantling tonight, glad I've got a good soldering station, could use much better eyes and fingers though, shoulda started this when I was much younger. Thank goodness for magnifying headsets.

keep me posted on what you're doing with the 900mhz equipment,

:cool: jim

Last edited on Thu Jan 8th, 2009 08:16 pm by jcburn

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Jim,

thank you for your informative posting.
According to Herb's suggestion some post before in this thread, I was thinking the last days on how to use a aircraft controller, with a 2-channel switch and a relay to reverse polarity.

Using the servo reverse would be much easier, but I fear the transmitter I bought is "to good" for this. I have no direct access to the servo reverse with a switch on the transmitter. The transmitter has a LCD display and I have to navigate to the reverse function of the desired channel by pressing a combinition of buttons.
Thats to time consuming, doing it during train operation.

Juergen

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Toeffelholm,

You may want to take a good look at your manual, a lot of times with a high end radio you can reassign functions. With my Spectrum DX3R I am able to assign different functions to any of 6 switches, haven't tried servo reverse yet, but I can. Did you get the DX6, or the DX6i ? I looked at one of my cheap 2.4 heli radios last night, but the servo and gyro functions are set with a 10 bay dip switch and I didn't feel like wasting time with it.

As for using a relay to change the polarity, you would need to do that down stream of the esc, if you did it upstream it would ruin the esc.

Tore the guts out of the Mini-T last night, I don't think I've ever seen so many tiny screws holding something in. While looking at the pieces it suddenly dawned on me why so many of the first attempts at this went into boxcabs etc. I looked at my new 2-8-0 and thought "Do I really want to take this apart to try an experiment I may have to undo?" I guess age brings caution as well as short term memory loss.

Will put clear heat shrink around the Mini-T circuit board prior to installation to protect it from inadvertent shorts and static while handling and installing.

jim :cool:

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Jim-if you mean "2-8-0" like the Bachmann outside frame On30 2-8-0, I can tell you that installing a Losi board will work, I have done several of them so far. I just used the stock board, disabling the pickup wires and connecting the Losi output wires to the board in place of the pickup wires. That's all there is to it and you still get the stock LED headlight that works. Install the battery, turn it on, and begin to have fun. Of course, you have to locate a place for the on/off switch but that's about all.

                Woodie

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Woodie,

Yes, that's the one, did you put the board & battery in the tender ? I noticed there was plenty of room there, but I went ahead and jerked the top off an HO Bachman USRA 0-6-0 intending to scratch a C&O loco that saw service here in the 50's and 60's. I've never seen one on anyone's layout nor any articles on building one. Will have plenty of room in the loco, and I want to do a build thread on the construction as well as the RC installation. The good thing about this type of loco I can backdate it pretty far, but I don't want to let the cat (Chessie) out of the bag yet.

I discovered today that my Losi xmitter for my rock crawler is not only 2.4, but has a manual servo reversing switch, so I will be bashing my xmitter as well. Hope to take it apart, cut in a toggle switch and stick operated pot and put it back togather in a smaller project box for ergonomics. I have plenty of 2.4 receivers around here, so I can forge ahead.

Going to try a module layout prior to proceeding on the main one, which will also be small compared to most.

Have a good weekend,

jim :cool:

ps. I was in Houston for 23 years, got up to Dallas quite frequently.

Last edited on Fri Jan 9th, 2009 11:53 pm by jcburn

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Jim-

Doing a thread on the conversion would be great.When folks see someone doing something like that, it gives them confidence, and even more importantly, inspiration

Spelled inspiration wrong, and one of the spellings that spellcheck suggested was DESPERATION!! Hope that it's not an omen!

The more that we can promote OBBRC, the more likely that some manufacturer will see that there is a viable market.

Keep going, and keep us updated.

As to the servo reversing- From what little I know, you can't reverse the input to an ESC. Is this wrong?


Herb:old dude:

Last edited on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 10:51 am by Herb Kephart

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Herb,

Right, you don't want to change the input at the esc, either change it at the transmitter by using the servo reverse switch, which reverses the signal to the receiver altering the pulses going to the esc, and will keep it that way until you change it back. Or, change the polarity of the current going from the battery/esc combination to the motor.

If you're going to change the polarity of the current going from the esc to the motor, you can use an aircraft esc because they don't have a reverse, and are usually cheaper too, but you will need more equipment in the loco or tender, whever you put  the electronics.

Does anyone here know the current load in watts or amps that a O loco pulling a heavily loaded consist draws??

Woodie, what's the heaviest loads you've pulled with the Koyosho boards?

Have a good weekend,

jim :cool:

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Jim,

I think with "input" Herb means the Information from the transmitter to the esc and I suppose he is right.

Isn't it like that, that you learn the esc that the lower position of the transmitter stick is zero speed and the upper position full speed?

And if you use servo reverse - or in this case throttle reverse - on this channel, won't it only reverse just this action? So that zero speed is on the upper stick position and full speed on the lower?

So if you have aircraft equipment as well, maybe you can check this for us ?

Regards

Juergen

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Jim-an example of what a Kyosho board will handle: on my layout, one Shay(beefed up On30) has a Sagami motor which runs pretty slow so I run an 11.1 3 cell 1800MAH Li-Poly for power. The Shay regularly pulls maybe 6-7 heavy ore cars plus a caboose or miner car up what may be a 10-11% grade with bumpy nasty track. I have used this for some years and never have had a problem with the board, etc. On Mopman (Jim H's) layout, we have an Athearn GP35 pulling an attached GP which is a dummy with Kyosho board & 11.1 battery also). The loco lashup is used for locals, etc. and pulls maybe 10-12 l o n g HO modern freight cars. Jim's layout is mostly water level except for a 2% coming up out of hidden staging. You see, I "lucked" into the Kyosho boards a few years back when the Mini-Z Racer cars were readily available and while pricey, were(are) worth it. Kyosho still makes the cars & boards but now the boards are on 2.4 GHZ and cost MUCHO DINERO. You may be able to get a deal on a Mini-Z car on the net..I found that even if the car was "trashed", the board would still be fine for what we are doing. Look maybe for basket cases. You can tell that this is my choice for an r/c board. It handles the voltage/current I want and is smaller than others and besides, unless I go banannas for one more locomotive..I have all the motive power I will ever need. I DO have a 2-4-0 that is run with a Losi board and it does run as well as the Kyosho boards. The Losi is far cheaper and available but is a bit larger than the Kyosho board. Also, Herb can answer this one-I am a little afraid to run 11 volts through a Losi board..I have been advised that 7.4 3 cell is all it will handle. What it all boils down to is-GET WHAT YOU WANT AND BE HAPPY IN KNOWING THAT YOU WILL NEVER HAVE TO WIRE A LAYOUT AGAIN AND THE STINKIN' LOCOMOTIVE WILL RUN ANYWHERE IT WANTS !

                     I will now go outside and run my trains in the sunshine..Woodie

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I think that Woodie is correct about Losi boards not liking over 7.4V.

I have four Losi boards that have electrorigormortise, Now it is entirely possible that I did something to fry them, other than try to run them on 3 LiPo cells, but all were new until I got my grubby paws on them. The fifth one that I bought, I changed to a two cell pack, and it works fine. At one point I called Losi Tech Support, to ask what the max amps and volts the boards were good for, but the kid on yhe other end didn't have a clue. He did say that the cars using the boards were originally  6 volts, and the conversion to 2 cell LiPo was an upgrade.

On your other question- amperage draw- the little can motors, 12 to 14 mm diameter, typically run at less than 200MA, with drivers slipping. I have no idea what the max safe amps (or more exactly, watts) they are good for. The old style open frame HO size motors with a 12 mm dia armature were safe below 700MA, larger 15 mm armature was red-lined at 1 amp. The old K&D wound field motors that O gaugers liked to use years ago came 4 sizes- the smallest was rated at 1.75 amp max, the largest at about 6, but I'm referring to prehistoric stuff there.

Join us tonight, and every Sunday night at 10PM EST on FlashChat, if you can.

Third line from the bottom on Woodroe's above post should read 7.4V TWO Cell. Just like a kid, wants to go out and play so much that he will tell you anything!


Herbie:old dude:

Last edited on Sun Jan 11th, 2009 01:32 pm by Herb Kephart

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Toeffelholm,

Dude! I am soooo embarassed,  :boohoo I ve been working on RC cars on my second job (LHS) for so long I think like a car guy now, if it goes backwards instead of forward just slide the servo reverse and fix it, Doh!

I am going to test both types of receivers with both types of transmitters as soon as I can get the guts out of one of my larger planes to work with. Reading your post saved me some cash too, I was going to pick up a Spectrum DX5e just because it had servo reversing switches, boy do I ever feel like a fool :old dude:( and an old one to boot).

Since Woodie has been using mini-z boards, I thought about the Radio Shack X-Mods, I've got a couple of them around here somewhere and will look at them when my first installation with the Losi board is finished.

Drew up plans in microstation last night for the switcher I'm going to build out of the Bachman 0-6-0, and brought some styrene sheet for the boiler wrap home from work with me tonight. Deconstruction completed, hoping to begin construction this week.

If my comments on RC systems have led anyone astray, I apologise for my lack of thinking it through B4 I opened my mouth.

jim :doh:

Last edited on Sun Jan 11th, 2009 08:54 pm by jcburn

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Jim,

don't worry about that.
The thought, that it could be done only with the servo reverse was too seductive.

Thus, the solution with a R/C-switch on one channel and a relay comes into the focus again, when we want to try a aircraft esc for a loco.

As I have no experience with those kind of RC control, I will try both -aircraft esc and forward/backward esc- to get a feeling for the differences.

First I will try this forward/backward esc
http://modellbau-regler.de/xtcommerce/product_info.php?info=p53_AS12-40RW-Evolution-II---Lipo.html&XTCsid=828bp7nqket6jql74c0v3g8e20

Sorry the site is in german, but the main data may be clear.
It's with a included Lipo-saver.

Juergen

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Toeffelholm,

Using the forward/backward esc, plug it into the elevator channel of your receiver, and use the corresponding stick on the transmitter for control, it usually is a centering stick, with center being neutral(stop). If pushing the stick forward (down elevator) causes the vehicle to move backward, then  use the servo reverse function to fix it. :Woohoo:  I don't know if your transmitter is mode 1 or 2 so I don't know which stick it will be.

The low voltage cut off for the Lipo is a good thing to have, it will keep your battery from being damaged and doesn't take up any extra space. I'm working 2 jobs and haven't had a chance to run my tests yet, you may beat me to it Ha!

Keep us posted,

Woodie, Herb thank you very much for the voltage/amperage data, I appreciate your time and experience with all this.

see ya later,

jim:cool:

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It sounds like you fellows are using airplane transmitters-the throttle has no center off. You can buy a 2 stick r/c car transmitter with throttle on the left, center off. It might make life a little easier. Matter of fact, if you make friends with r/c car racers, they would probably give you a couple of old stick transmitters just to clear their workbenches. I will tell you that in this town, if I told my r/c flying buddies that I was using air equipment to run my trains, I would be shot on site and fed to the fishes! But then, this is Dallas......                      Woodie

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Well, if we were using an airplane frequency instead of 2.4ghz they should shoot us, but 2.4 is for both surface and air. A lot of rock crawler dudes use stick aircraft type radios on 2.4 because it is difficult to find a surface stick radio with more than 3 channels :P. A crawler in the Super class uses up to 5 channels, front steer, throttle, rear steer, front dig and rear dig. Airtronics is the only mfg I know of currently selling a stick surface radio with more than 4 channels, that's why I suggested using the elevator channel on an aircraft transmitter, it is center off. Of course there is nothing preventing us from removing the gambels and transposing the sticks, and if Juergen is using a mode 1 transmitter, the left stick would be center off anyway.

No progress anywhere, I think I'm trying to do too many things at once. I've got the heatshrink for my Losi board, but haven't shrunk it yet, can't locate my Losi xmitter, can't locate my 2.4 aircraft receiver, track planning the layout, ditto module, bashing the 0-6-0, rebuilding the N shelf layout for my son (to be gift), feeding livestock and working at 2 places. Always thought as I got older there would be more time....

I do get to smell the sweet smell of a coal fired stove when the temp drops, much hotter fire than wood, and much cheaper than propane or nat. gas. I can close my eyes and pretend I'm at the Charleston station as a coal drag passes through. I am really fortunate to have seen heavy steam working on a daily basis.

Oh Reservoir,

jim :cool:


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What shall I say? I am excited!

Yesterday I have got my esc (a boat esc) for my 2,4 Ghz transmitter and have tested it with my self-made drive with coreless motor and with a loco on a play train drive base. Both work excellent.

I didn't expect that I could have such a fine control with this stick transmitter. I can make the locos crawling along the track.

This direct steplessly control of velocity with the spring-suspended center-off stick is great. The range from the center position of the stick to the maximum deflection is - different as I thought before - sufficient for me for a fine control.

I want to thank Woodie for his plausibly writing about his reasons using stick transmitter control. I'm very happy about my decision to try this.

Juergen


Juergen

Last edited on Sat Jan 17th, 2009 07:16 pm by Toeffelholm

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Woodie,

Evidence of your influence at work in Florida. Here is the start on my RC Hon30 loco. It's built from a Kato chassis and the RC compontents from a cheap "bubble car". No proportional speed control but on 1.5v the speed is just about right. The question will be whether or not 1.5v is enough to pull a cut of five cars when they are properly weighted. The loco needs all the weight it can get. I mayl try fitting some rubber to each of the four drive wheels. Any suggestions? I just picked up an N size battery in hopes I can fit it in some type of boiler.

I laughed out loud when it pulled its first cut of cars smoothly down the track. As you can see from the photo I've still got to work out a few minor aethestic details. :bg:  With a stretched frame a passable two truck shay might be possible.

Also, if someone can tell me what size to save my photos so you don't have to scroll to see them I'll be happy to make the correction.


Take care,

Brent




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Don't be too hard on me, I know it is ridiculous but I want to see if everything would fit before I put in much time. This is a paper body to see if I could get all the RC gear and battery inside. It seems to fit. I've got 14 grams of lead in the chassis as well as the RC board and a N battery in a holder. A boxcab or small diesel switcher should be easy by comarison. It runs pretty good. Proportional or stepped throttle would be nice but not absolutely necessary for a micro layout.

I do have a question. If I want to go to a three volt battery what size resistor would I need to slow it back down a bit? Do I solder it inline with the battery lead or one of the leads to the motor?

Thanks in advance for any help.


Take care,

Brent




 

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Brent-

What seems like a simple question, gets rather involved to answer- because- are you ready for this?- it depends.

What value resistor you need to put between the motor and the control board to  slow the motor down, depends on the resistance of the motor. Trial and error is called for, unless you have access to a good ohm meter, and even then, the motor speed might not react in a linear fashion. That is to say, a 10% reduction in voltage may not give a 10% reduction in speed. so experimentation is called for.

BUT

If this is done, the board will get full battery voltage and the board components may not stand 3 volts. If you put the resistor between the board and the battery the board will be running on motor voltage (<3V), BUT ONLY WHILE THE MOTOR IS RUNNING. If you stop the motor, the board voltage will jump to nearly the battery voltage, because the electrical resistance (ohms) of the board is much greater than the motor, and so the resistor would not lower the voltage nearly as much. There is a way of lowering the voltage going to the board and motor, independent of load, involving a 7812 (I think that's the right #) adjustable voltage regulator, but that, and the resistors and capacitors involved would take up space that it is quite evident that you don't have.

SO

The best answer is to try 3 volts to the board, and a resistor (ohms by trial and error), and realize that the board might be able to take it, or may fry. Odds are that it will work, as most electronic stuff is good up to 5 volts.

Hope this is understandable.



Herbie:old dude:

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What Herb said. I do know that the little board I put in my Model T can handle a 7.4 volt li-poly (LOSI Micro-T) with no problems. Three volts won't harm your board (at least I hope not).  I'm not going to begin to figure out ohms and what you need to cut the speed. I have tried the following and it worked great-I installed a 1.5 volt light bulb in series with a small motor hooked up to a tiny receiver all wired to a 3 volt lithium camera battery (CR-2) and it did indeed cut the speed. Probably just dumb ass luck, but it worked.  Try it out, we're experimenters working on the edge of the hobby anyway. Keep the faith!

For those reading this thread and wondering if any of this r/c stuff is applicable to the "real world" of model railroading, here is some news. Last weekend, Jim (mopman)'s layout was on tour for a local show and he had that ATHEARN GP lashup with the 11.1 volt li-poly and Kyosho board running the whole time and it performed wonderfully. This is HO, older Athearn locos with the original motor and equipment in the dummy unit. I did some switching with the locos and ran some locals and the only problems I had was when another dc powered train was coming and I was lollygagging around shoving cars on the main. You find out quick that without track power, not only can you go anywhere, but you can get too stinkin' close to a wreck if you aren't paying attention. Just like running a real train! The unit was also pulling a 10-12 car train of long 70's era cars. This was a most impressive demo of what is possible.

                   Woodie

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Herb and Woodie,

I'm sure you are correct regarding the board's ability to handle 3 volts. I ran it that way for a few minutes using two 1.5v batteries but the speed was not acceptable. Actually I should probably just stick to the 1.5v because the more I run this on my micro layout the more appropriate the speed looks. With 1.5 volts I can pull 6 of my 18' cars. Each car weighs about 15gr. When the loco does stall it seems to be the result of wheel spin.

As for the RC fun factor...suffice it to say I've seen the light. While I should be working on more believable shell for the little loco, instead I say "just switch one more inglenook puzzle then I'll get back to work..." Having the little loco run so smooth with no concern about dirty track or stalling on points is great. I'll still occasionally run the layout with DC because I already have a little diesel and a kit for an 0-4-0 Baldwin that would never hold the board and battery.

Next step is to figure out something that will look decent on this two truck chassis. Its a Kato 11-105 if anyone has any suggestions. I've also got another RC board ready. I'll be hooking it up to an N scale 0-4-0 or 0-6-0 steam mechanism. I may need to pick up a third for the Kato 11-103 4 wheel mech I have. That should make a nice RC diesel switcher.  

Thanks again for all the help.

Take care,

Brent

 

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Brent-

Enjoy the advantages of OBBRC, and spread the word to the infidels. Some day you will be able to brag that you were in on the concept early!



Herbacide:old dude:

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Brent-now you are getting it! I have the same problem as you-I intend to work on the layout, install some detailing, maybe a new building or scenery...then I decide to run JUST ONE train for a couple of minutes. Then, it's maybe 2 or 3 hours later and I have been having a ball running to the mines, etc. I know that if I had to mess with cleaning track, searching for shorts, tracing wiring paths, etc., I would probably have the best detailed layout around because the stinkin' train wouldn't run right so all that's left to do is work on scenery. But I know that I can spend time on other stuff and ANYTIME I decide to run a train,  all I have to do is switch on the transmitter and loco and commence operations.  I'll say it again-going wireless is the best thing that I have done for my enjoyment of this hobby, I just wish I had done it many many years ago. Never too late... Woodie

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Latest update on RC for HOn30 and a question. I got a Kyosho board hooked up to a Kato 4 wheel N scale mechanism. Everything will fit into a 2"x7/8" boxcab of some sort. I think the board is too large to go into a rear cab shell but who knows. If anyone has any links to some great ideas for an interesting boxcab let me know. I may be able to leave the ends open just a little from about half the height on up. I'll try to post some pictures of the installation soon.

I need to try to pick up a cheap 27mhz stick transmitter to replace the wheel I have. My question is about the noise the motor makes when operating on the Kyosho board, most noticably at low speeds. Is there a cure for this? The cheap boards don't seem to make this noise but they don't have any speed control either.

I did order one th ES400 speed controls to try with a GWS RP4II receiver. I'll let you know how it goes once the ESC arrives from Germany. It should yield a smaller rx/esc combo than the Kyosho board.

Take care,

Brent   

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Brent,

The noise is induced from the PWM motor contol of your board.
This PWM control has a certain frequency. There are esc's on the market with frequencies from under 1kHz up to 100kHz.

If this frequency is rather low, it makes the motor purring. I think more or less denpending on the motor. You had the same effect with early DCC decoders.

An esc without proportional speed control doesn't need PWM technic, and thus makes no noise.

I don't know the limit frequency that causes no more motor noise. But as I know this effect I have taken a 16kHz esc that makes no more noise for sure.

Regards,

Juergen

Last edited on Fri Jan 30th, 2009 04:38 am by Toeffelholm

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Thought you guys might like to see a picture of the ER400 ESC that arrived from Sol-Expert in Germany. It's rated for 2.7-5.5 volts. It should give me proportional control in forward and reverse. The motor leads come from the 2 small holes at the top and the servo lead back to the Rx attaches to the three holes at the bottom. The two on holes on the left are for an optional LED status indicator.

I'm hoping to get it hooked up to my little GWS RPII 4 channel Rx and a 3.7v 80ma LiPo. I may also try it with 4.5v from three LR44 batteries.

As small as the GWS RPII 4 channel is it would be great to see how small a dedicated train Rx/ESC could be.

Take care,

Brent



 


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Brent-that is one TINY receiver! Does this have reverse and is it proportional?  The motor hum you mentioned doesn't occur on all my locos. I have installed some very tiny capacators across the motor brushes on several locos and not only does this get rid of any "glitches", but seems to get rid of the hum also. Sorry that I don't remember the values of the caps, but the ones I use are made by Trinity Racing for r/c car motors and are very small. Some motors have 2, a couple have 3 wired across the brushes. Of course, the hum is my only sound equipment, my being a "silent runner" so as to not offend the birds and critters in the back yard. Tell us more about this miniscule board...and how much does it cost? (inquiring minds......)

                          Woodie

PS-I just actually read what you wrote-it DOES have proportional f/r. Excellent...tell us more...

Last edited on Mon Feb 9th, 2009 10:21 pm by W C Greene

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Woodie-

I think it is only an ESC, not an receiver



Urb:old dude:

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Woodie and Herb,

As Herb mentioned it is only the ESC, you still need a receiver. I got it from here:

http://store.sol-expert-group.de/

Type ER400 into the search window and it will come right up. 16.80 Euro minus 19% since we don't pay VAT, so 14.13 Euro, roughly $18.50. 

I'm using this for a receiver:

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXHHR5&P=FR

$20 from Tower doesn't include the crystal. My LHS carries them at the same price. As more and more guys go to the 2.4 stuff some may be available used for cheap too.

Buy the time I cut off the unnecessary pins I can have a receiver/esc combo that measures 1.0"x.62"x.4". Total cost will be around $45. Considerably smaller than the Kyosho but also handles less power I think.

I've hooked it up so far to a 3.7v LiPo and 4 regular AA's for 6v and it seemed to function fine in both cases. I'm going to ask if they think it would be okay with a 2 cell 7.4v LiPo since the rating says 5.5v max. I wonder though if I could adjust transmitter trim so no more than 5.5v came through the ESC. When I ran the 6v batteries I measured only about 3.6v out of the ESC unless I raised the trim on the Tx.

I also wish I knew more about motors as I'd like to try it with some small coreless motors to see if they are better suited to the low voltage output. Have you guys seen these?

     http://www.gizmoszone.com/shopping/storepro5/agora.cgi?product=Gearmotor&user4=810series;ppinc=1b

Gotta go for now but I'll keep in touch.

Take care,

Brent

 

 

 

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This is probably made obsolete by the ESC we are discussi but I though it was interesting:

http://www.nyblimp.com/articles/ESC.htm

He shows how to convert a servo into a forward/reverse esc.

Take care,

Brent

 

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Brent- If the voltage that you measured was a series of pulses, your meter would give an average reading if the pulses were square (likely), or RMS if the pulses were sinusoidal (Like AC - not likely)

The voltage at the peak of the pulse is what matters, it is what will zap the electronics, and can only be measured with an oscilloscope as far as I know.




Hertizan  Herbie:old dude: 

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Herb,

You are exactly correct. The gentleman from Sol-Expert sent me an email response that matches almost word for word your post. I wish I had your knowledge of electronics. I'm struggling through and gaining a little more understanding each day.  I do enjoy the journey though.

From what you and he say I would think two cell lipos are out as the peak voltage is too high for the ESC. For my small scale applications I think 5.5v will do. I'll try the unit soon with 3 of the little LR44 (150ma) button batteries to see how long they would run a locomotive.

I believe I need to adjust my transmitter endpoints to give me full "throw" in both directions. The unit shows great promise for my application. 

Take care,

Brent 

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You ain't kidding-I wish Herbie lived near Dallas so I could get him to explain stuff to me. All I know is that I "stumbled" onto what I have and it works quite well. Don't know why or how, but dumb luck has guided me along so far. I doubt that I will ever get into new 2.4 GHZ stuff, but who knows? I have seen pigs fly.     Woodie

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bcarter1234 wrote:
... I'd like to try it with some small coreless motors to see if they are better suited to the low voltage output. ...

Brent, before you try a corless motor, you should know, that you normally need an esc with a really high PWM frenquency to control a coreless motor. It will work, but low frequency control will reduce the motors lifetime. I have asked the guys of sol-expert as I'm interested in this small esc for my little Lister Truck, and their esc's have only 50Hz.

If you look for a small but powerful motor with low current and high efficiency respectively, you could perhaps think about a brushless motor. But you need a special esc for brushless and I don't know if there are ecs's in the size you need. Actually I'm investigating by myself for this.

Juergen

Last edited on Sat Feb 14th, 2009 12:49 pm by Toeffelholm

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Juergen,

Thanks for the information. Feel free to pass along anything about these motors and controllers as I'm really new to this. Before I go to coreless I have a Mashima MHK1015 on order now from the UK that I want to try with a 5:1 geardrive. You can read a bit about  what some other guys are doing with this combination here:

http://forum.atlasrr.com/discussion/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=51618

There is another extensive thread there. Search "tinytot". The conclusion is that the Mashima and the Gizmozone gearhead is a nice combo. 

The gentleman from micro-loco-motion.com plans to make this combo available.

I think it will work well with the sol-expert esc.

Take care,

Brent

 

 

 

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Coreless motors sound great! Model plane guys have used them for a while and love them. If I had them in my lokies, I might get longer run time between charges and perhaps a smoother drive to boot. The Micro Loco man who you related to has a large line of wonderful motors & gearboxes, most priced quite low, and he might be able to offer some suggestions for particular installations. Let us know if you use one of these motors, we all need to learn.         Woodie

Last edited on Sun Feb 15th, 2009 10:23 am by W C Greene

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Woodie,

I see from his website that he is located in Hurst TX. Perhaps close enough for a visit from a representative of the Mongollon. :)

Take care,

Brent  

 

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One thing that I found is that when I asked him for information, I got such a deluge that it addled my brain, and I haven't been the same since. Too many choices and combinations for my feeble mind.


Herb:old dude:

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Brent-I don't know if the motor guy actually has a store, he may run from a car trunk! It would be a nice trip over there since it seems the Fort Worth area (Hurst included) always has more cool stuff than Dallas does. When I used to work on MG's and TR's, I could never find parts or help here, but there were some great sports car shops in FW and the same goes for pretty much all else. Dallas folks only believe in big cash and monster homes. Now I have offended Dallas-woopie doo!   Woodie

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Hi all,

I'am new here. I'm from the Netherlands. I model narrow gauge, 1:45 on 16,5mm track. I like to use HO-driveunits to built any non-prototypical loco or railcar. From scratch, out of the blue. I have been reading here about RC for the last 4 hours, just couldn't stop :). YES, I WANT RC!

One thing I sure have overread is: how do I run more than 1 train? And how few can I run with one transmitter? I do'nt mean to run them all together, only one in a time. But how many transmitters would I need for say 6 trains? Is it realy as simple as just switch one off and drive on with the next one? (there must be something difficult about it)

As soon as my budget-keeper (I do love her) allows it I'll grab me a cheap RC-car and have a go.

I'm amazed why all the main modelrailroadsuppliers in Europe (Germany) haven't jumped on RC allready! Hooked on DCC?

Sorry for my poor englisch, but therefore I can write Dutch very well. :bg:

CU,

Albert

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Albert-you guessed right...it really is as easy as it sounds. You only need one transmitter (unless you have more than one operator) and can indeed run 6 or so locos with the one transmitter. Two ways to go-put all your locos' receivers on the same frequency and turn on whatever loco you want to run or install 6 diffrerent frequencies in the locos and change transmitter crystals to run each one. Having all on the same frequency is much easier. To do this, you will need "hobby grade" r/c equipment, that is boards and transmitters that have changeable crystals. There are systems like CREST HO DC ENGINEER which can control more locos and you will need to "link" the transmitter to each loco to opertate. You may want to experiment with the inexpensive "toy grade" items, but you may want better control after a while so be prepared to spend some money down the line. Just keep reading the r/c thread posts, there is something for everyone who wants to use this "cutting edge" control and be free of track wiring forever! You will hear more from others about their ideas and tips, so sit back and read and enjoy. Using r/c, I have more fun than I ever had in 50 years of model railroading.     Woodie

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I posted a picture of my RC HOn30 boxcab over in the Critters thread. My first scratchbuild so feel free to make suggestions. Controlled by the GWS RP II 4 channel and the Sol-Expert ESC. Battery is 3.7v 80mah lipo.

Next stop is to get the gear into a little diesel or gas mechanical and hopefully a little steam switcher eventually.

Take care,

Brent

 

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Albert-

Whether you go with all the locos on one frequency (easiest), or the changing crystals system (PITA) each locomotive should have a small switch to disconnect the battery from the receiver- otherwise the battery will go dead. This especially important with LiPo batteries, as if they are discharged completely, they are ruined.
Since you need this switch for this purpose, why not use it to select which loco you want to run? My first RC loco has headlights (leds) that only light in the direction that the engine is running- but I'm going to change this and make it, and future locos have their lights on anytime that the battery switch is on, as a reminder to shut them off when done. Led's take so little power to light, that the difference in run time will be only a matter of seconds.



Herb:old dude:

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Good point, Herbie. My locos have constant light supplied via the old timey diode bridge crap. I have intended to run 12 volt bulbs right off the board's on/off switch but ain't got around to it (round tuit?). Maybe after your mention, I will remember to do such. Those big old GOW bulbs (I still like the old incandesant glow) will make some splendid lights and since I use Mag Light reflectors, I can probably read a newspaper at night while the train runs! 

Mag Light reflectors really make steam loco headlights (O and larger) look nice and there is one size that comes with the plastic lens which is a direct drop in for an O scale PSC old time oil headlamp. If interested, get on Mag Light's site and check out the available sizes. Since they ain't made for model railroaders, they are pretty cheap!              Woodie

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Hi all,

Thanks for the replies. I understand what you say about the christals and the switches. I'm intend to keep the good old HO engines in place. They run on 9 volts as well, I tested with a battery. Would you advise to change volts in the future? And why? If I do so I could use smaller engines which saves some more room for the rc-gear? And what about the board, I guess they use the same battery? Do I make sense?

Albert

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All the boards that I know of use the same battery as the motor, but Woodie might know of an exception. Be careful about using too much voltage- The Koysho boards that he uses seem to OK on 3 LiPo cells (11+ volts), but I personally have ruined another make of board on 3 cells. If you are using the components from a cheap car, I would not go above the voltage that the car ran on- unless you want to take the chance.

As for changing motors, the modern motors run so much better than the old open frame ones, that I think that it is worth switching- plus they take a fraction of the amperage the old ones do- so you get a much longer run out of a battery charge.



Herb:old dude:

Last edited on Thu Feb 19th, 2009 10:30 am by Herb Kephart

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Dear All,

Aristo-Craft has developed an R/C system for G Gauge that mimics the controls available in DCC and allows 50 trains to operate on the same track. It's on 2.4 GHz, so it's glitch free and is DSSS. We are contemplating doing a H.O. version that would have a receiver that plugs in to the DCC port in most trains and operates on battery power. I need help in finding a way to offer a battery pack connection in H.O. as we do in G and wonder if there is an elegant solution already out there. If there is any place that would know this board is the place and I'm looking for some help.

The Revolution R/C system took 3 years to develop by our former Hitec R/C chief engineer and was designed just for model trains. Therefore, we have full motor control and control of multiple trains and remote switches without jury rigging r/c car systems that were not designed for this job. We did this, because we share your enthusiasm for the future of model railroading ease without track maintenance and conductivity problems.

You can check out our G gauge version at  http://www.aristocraft.com/insiders/2009/InsiderJanFeb2009.pdf , but we even have m.u.ing up to 6 locos that can be individually set and have 1024 step control, momentum, 2 way communication for speed, temperature and cruise control speed maintenance.

There are no cv's to learn as it's all done on a graphic, back lit screen and the programs are kept in the transmitter and sent 1000 times per second instead of programing a decoder. The receiver antenna is only 1 1/2" long, so placement is easy and can fit in most H.O. locos easily.

Obviously, track condiditions or wiring no longer matter, but we need an onboard battery technique. The system will work on track power too, but battery on board is a more practical  solution.

Any ideas?????? I can be reached at lewis@polkshobby.com

All the best,
Lewis Polk

Last edited on Fri Feb 27th, 2009 05:20 pm by lewispolk

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Lewis-finally someone from the "mainstream" model railroad manufacturers is investigating what we believe to be the future of model railroading. I won't carry on any more, but on battery connections-check out the JST polarized power connections. Most rechargable types use the JST plugs, and the Lithium-Polymer batteries many of us use are supplied with just such plugs. I hope this is the info you need.

Please keep us posted on any developments, there are many here who are already wireless and I am sure that with available systems, more will follow.

             Woodie C Greene

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Dear Woodie.

Thanks for the response. The connectors are easy, but I'm looking for a battery concept. We have a 9V rechargeable in mind, but we're not sure it's enough for long consists.

All the best,
Lewis Polk

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Lewis-we have been using a 2 unit HO ATHEARN GP lashup-one powered loco and a dummy with the receiver and 11.1 volt, 3 cell Li-Poly rechargable which has run reliabily for around 8 hours while performing normal switching duties and local freight operations with a 10-12 car train of 1970's era 80 foot cars all weighted to NMRA standards and battling a 2.5% grade in one place. I believe in the Li-Poly batteries and they can be had in a multitude of sizes and MAH outputs. I wish you well with this venture, the hobby could really use an injection of 21st Century technology.

I know that there is a market for an onboard r/c system that would fit HO and On30 locomotives and if battery technology would advance further, N scale is possible. I know of one fellow who installed the gear in an N scale diesel lashup, all run from Lithium-Ion camera batteries. Please don't talk down to those of us who are still using "antiquated" r/c car boards, we are using what is available and are enjoying the advantages of wireless operation. While I don't care for such things as momentum and dynamic braking, I realize that most don't walk on my side of the street. This hobby needs to advance in this direction, getting rid of the old ways of cleaning track & wheels and associated wiring worries and the need for further education to be able to run a toy train. Let the fun begin.     Woodie

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Lewis,

I am happy to see someone working in this direction. I hope you've had the opportunity to look over the threads here sufficiently to see the very interesting things being pioneered. I think for your battery system rechargeable lipo's are the way to go due to energy density, size and form factor. Connectors don't get much simpler than the Bahoma system.

http://www.bphobbies.com/pdf/efd/Didel/Bahoma.pdf

Please don't stop at standard gauge HO, some of us don't model in those giant scales. :) As you want to make a smaller system anyway, go very small.

Take care,

Brent  

 

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Dear All,

Thanks for the input and Lipos are one method. We stock Lipos for our R/C model division and have had good success with them. However, they are not widely available in trains stores at this time, so we still want to look at 9volters first. Do you all keep your batteries in a trailing car as most G Gaugers do? Do you cut the pickups from track power or put ina a microswitch, so that you can go either way? Is their input from tenders in H.O. that have to be cut too?

All the best,
Lewis Polk


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Hi Lewis

The only "trailing car" that I would put a battery or receiver in is the tender of a steam loco. I think that dragging a dedicated car behind the engine ruins the whole effect. I think that LiPos are the way to go- while Woodie has some friends that use 9V alkaline batteries, the 9V rechargables have a very limited capacity MAH wise.

As far as track pickups go, I scratch build- so I don't have them .


Herb:old dude:

Last edited on Sat Feb 28th, 2009 01:15 pm by Herb Kephart

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As I noted, I do know a couple of guys using 9 volt alkaline batteries to run their On30 locos, but the Li-Poly technology is far superior (my opinion). The Li-Poly batteries can be had that will fit into most HO scale locomotive tenders and small locos could possibly be powered by the smaller lipos made for ultra lightplanes and copters. All it takes is the willingness to experiment. Also, the cost of lipos is coming down, I have seen a 2 cell 7.4 volt 480 MAH job that would fit in most locos going for 13 bucks! If one is wanting to pull some "tonnage", then more power is needed, but for a small train of ore cars, etc...this would be adequate. As for being able to run with track power and r/c, why would one want to do that? If you have working pickups on the wheels, then you would have to be sure the track is "wired" for proper 2 rail distribution and also be sure that when the loco is running on dc or dcc, then NO track power could get back into the board or battery. I have taken out all forms of pickups in my locomotives, I still have properly insulated wheels just so I won't cause problems when running on a "conventional" wired layout however. An onboard battery like a lipo can be carried in the loco and appropriate charging jack can be installed without detracting from the "details". There has been talk of "charging tracks" where the loco could sit and charge and while this sounds great, again the wheels would have to be wired with pickups for this and the small contact area of wheel on rail is not a really suitable way to carry current for charging. There is still a great deal to be explored, but I shall leave that up to others. After several years of true wireless operation, I can't imagine why anyone would continue to wire a layout and clean track.

Uh Oh, I can see the townfolk coming down the street with pitchforks and torches so I had better get along...................Woodie............. 

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Not to mention the tar and feathers pardner!


Herbie:old dude:

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Hi Lewis,

I am using the All-Trol Product, Receiver and Handheld control unit. The All-Trol Product is a "made for trains" RC unit and address the different engines you are running like you do with DCC. I will assume you know Ray Corneau as I know he knows you. I talked to Ray this afternoon. I have ordered 3 more of his receivers. The All-Trol is really easy to setup. Four wires to connect - 2 to the motor and 2 to the battery. Turn on the Handheld, select the engine number, select forward or reverse, and go.

I use a 11.1 LiPo Eflight battery with my setup. They are a little on the large size but seems to last a long time. I am putting RC in some HO scale McKeen Motor Cars and have the space necessary for everything. Smaller engines will use a follow-along car of some sort to carry the battery. I also use no track power.

If my track was wired why would I use RC?

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Dear All,

We use 2.4 GHz, not 433 MHz and our frequency is International in scope and we have two way communication. Also, we have a 400 ft range, not 40', so we have some advantages. The concept is the same, but we think our system has some advantages.

Also, our antenna is shorter and easier to place. Our graphic screen is a little easier to use too, but both systems work and brings radio control to model trains. I 433 MHz a good choice?????

All the best,
Lewis Polk

Last edited on Fri Mar 6th, 2009 02:46 pm by lewispolk

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Lewis,

Lipo's are the current state-of-the-art in recharchable battery technic and perform the best ratio of capacity and size at present.

Using 2,4Ghz technic you have choosen the most modern and to my mind best radio transmission technic available on the RC market at present, so you shoudn't use antiquated battery technic.

I don't share your argument that you can't by lipos in a train store, in times whre you are just one phonecall or mouseclick away from what you desire. And also the next bigger electronic distributor will have them.

Ok, you need a special charger and you must take care, that the voltage of a lipo cell doesn't sink under 3 Volt. But lipo cells are used in many laptops nowadays, so the technic for reliable lipo-saving is already there, and a Lipo charger is avalable from the RC distributors for small money.

To my mind, it may be difficult to place and hide a charging plugin in a H0 loco and the standard consumer should't be forced to open the loco to charge the rechargeable battery, I think. So there should be perhaps
the possibilty to use the pickups for charging on a charging track, as Woodie already mentioned. I can't say for sure, if the contact area of wheel and rail will be sufficient, but I think so.

Regards,

Juergen

Last edited on Sun Mar 1st, 2009 07:41 pm by Toeffelholm

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Dear Jurgen,

Lipos need circuitry protection and Nimh do not, but we will look at both methods. In G Gauge, trailing cars work best as it's easy to remove the batteries for recharging and you can put the trailing car behind any loco equipped with the r/c. This is easier and cost saving for the average modeler, but again we're open to all ideas.

Our concern is the radio and we're try to supply batteries as a supplement to the r/c. We're not battery makers, but do have access to them and can custom make any type that will serve the community the best. Perhaps, we can supply a variety of methods, but we want something that the average hobbyist can manage easily.

I have noticed Lithium Ion batteries in easy to use rechargeable 9v packages at 1200 ma hours that would do great in a trailing car. I'm going to look into them and will get back to you here.

Thanks for the input.

Yours truly,
Lewis Polk

Last edited on Mon Mar 2nd, 2009 11:26 am by lewispolk

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Lewis-

Something to bear in mind is that G scale folks seem to like to sit back and watch trains run, whereas folks in the smaller gauges are predominately operators- where a dedicated "battery" car becomes a hindrance.


Herb:old dude:

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Dear Herb,

You can put the battery in a box car, gondola, combine passenger car or whatever, so unless you're doing a lot of uncoupling..switching I'm not getting the problem. A lot of G Gaugers are into operations now too. If you hide a battery in a diesel the recharging becomes more difficult. If you can just pop the battery out and charge it off line it seems to be far less complicated.

All the best,
Lewis Polk

Last edited on Mon Mar 2nd, 2009 11:45 am by lewispolk

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Lewis,

maybe I misunderstood your intention. My thought was, that you want to provide a complete system for the customer, including the battery technic.

Thus, recommending the use of Lipos, my thought was to provide the neccessary battery security already in the decoder. Otherwise the risk of false handling by the "standard" customer is rather high.

I think, the most guys here in the forum, who tinker their own solutions, know that they do it on their own risk and that you sometimes have to pay for the faults you are learning from.

Without giving an unexperienced consumer the necessary technic ready to use, it may be better to recommend secure solutions like a 9 Volt block, there you're right.

Juergen

Last edited on Mon Mar 2nd, 2009 12:13 pm by Toeffelholm

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Lewis- Switching is what I do, and I don't remove the battery to recharge, have a jack on the tender to plug in the charging current- don't even have to take the loco off the track.

Juergen is probably right about the public vs LiPo's -  Unless you design the system so that is 100% idiot proof you are looking at trouble down the road. Those of us here mostly use LiPos, but we accept the cost and the care needed as the price to pay for the energy density they give. Then again, there seems to be a lot of ready to fly planes and helios out there for sale, with LiPo power.

Are you sure that the Lithium Ion batteries that are 1200 MAH are rechargeable? The ones that I found are listed as primary batteries IE no recharge


Herb:old dude:

Last edited on Mon Mar 2nd, 2009 12:55 pm by Herb Kephart

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Dear Herb,

Here's a link to the battery type I'm talking about.

http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1618

Yes, this one is not rechargeable, but I'll get a rechargeable one posted later.

This is a retail source and I will have to see if my suppliers can match this, but I'm pretty sure it's doable. On our G Gauge trains we put a battery plug onto every loco, but in H.O. they do not. When our receiver is dropped into the port we will have to have them wire in a mini plug to the trailing car or any way they want to do it.

All the best,

Lewis Polk

Last edited on Mon Mar 2nd, 2009 01:28 pm by lewispolk

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Lewis-I understand your position on "trailer cars" and the like, but I am with Herb. We (and others) are operators and won't put up with a dedicated trailer car, a locomotive tender is one thing...the locomotive needs that..but a boxcar, etc. is (for some of us) unacceptable. Herb is right, the large scalers want to sit back & watch the train run around the yard while they sip on some brews, not all do this, but most. For them, a trailer car is no problem. I guess I have been very lucky with my choice of equipment, I use KYOSHO MINI-Z RACER receiver/esc boards and li-poly batteries almost exclusively. One deviation is a loco with a LOSI MICRO-T board. I have adapted all my locos and transmitters to use li-poly batteries and there is no problem recharging them if this is done at a low charging rate. My locos with li-po's have been in operation for more than 5 years and I am completely satisfied with them. I would dearly love to see your system for "small scale" become available, I just wonder why it has not been done before now. As for being able to run a train from across the room, that is something I am not into. I run with antennas down, never more than 2 feet or so away from the locomotive at any time. My railroad is quite different from most, I love to be with the train at all times as it runs from place to place. What it boils down to is that I may not be the guy you are wanting as a purchaser, I have what I want and am very happy with the results. But the future is r/c, true wireless operation, without track wiring and all the associated problems. If I can offer any advice, feel free to ask.  Best of luck on the venture, the future of this hobby may well depend on what you are doing!           Woodie C Greene 

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Dear All,

Here's the link to the rechageable 9v 1200 ma battery.

http://images.channeladvisor.com/Sell/SSProfiles/23000066/thumbs/39/tn4_1380346.jpg

I think that there will be many battery solutions, but we hope they all include our radio solution.

All the best,
Lewis Polk

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Hello everyone,

    I just joined this forum today, but I wanted to make a remark about what Lewis Polk and his crew are considering -- a new HO scale version of their 2.4 GHz Revolution R/C system that plugs into the standard DCC connector. I have read this thread with a lot of interest, and I would be interested in purchasing such a product, if it fit my needs.

     Correct me if I'm wrong, but a locomotive with a stardard 8-pin DCC port only receives electricity when a DCC decoder "or" a DCC dummy plug is installed. If there is nothing installed, the motor gets nothing. I'm assuming this is why you need the dummy plug installed, when there is no decoder installed. The dummy plug just "jumpers" the electricity from the wheel contacts to the motor. I hope you see where I'm going with this.

      Mr. Polk, if you decide to produce a wireless decoder that fits into the DCC plug on HO and On30 locos, it could be designed to work in three ways:
  1. It could be made to work with both track power and battery power,
  2. or only battery power,
  3. or only track power. 
    Since you have already mentioned that you would like the option to use battery power, I think number three is out of the running. That leaves the first two choices. In my way of thinking, if the decoder is designed to work with "only" battery power, that is the simplest for me to operate with. I would not have to worry about track wiring (reverse loops, wyes, turntables, etc) that could damage the wireless decoder and battery. If the decoder is made to run with both track pickup and batteries, there is that added complexity to consider. If the wireless decoder only uses the battery, there is no worry about track wiring damaging my locomotive. And besides, by itself, the dcc port cannot pass the electricity from the track to the motor by itself, it's impossible. A regular decoder or dummy plug is needed for that. A regular decoder is not designed to operate with batteries. But you have mentioned the possibility of building a wireless decoder that operates with battery power for HO trains.

     In my opinion, the HO decoder could be designed with a mini plug on the side, where the battery plugs into. The decoder could be designed to "only" accept electricity from the battery, ignoring the track pickups. I realize not every HO scale locomotive has enough room inside for a battery, so it would be feasible to also produce a couple differeent types of connecting cables, to connect between the battery port on the decoder and the actual battery. Aristo-Craft could sell a few different types of connecting cables, with a choice of plug for the battery preference the modeler has. Let the modeler decide where he/she will install the actual battery -- such as inside the actual locomotive if enough room merits -- or inside the tender of a steam locomotive, or a dummy diesel locomotive, or a passenger car, freight car, etc. Aristo-Craft only needs to be concerned with the wireless decoder and connecting plugs.

     Even though I believe Li-Po batteries are great, they also have to treated with a lot of care and respect. Your thoughts about using a 9v sized rechargable battery might be better for the general masses. You mentioned, "I have noticed Lithium Ion batteries in easy to use rechargeable 9v packages at 1200 ma hours that would do great in a trailing car."  In my opinion, the general public should have a choice of battery to install, unless you find a great solution for safety, convenience and energy density, not to mention price.

   Anyway, good luck with your project. I look forward to what you eventually decide to pursue and build.

Regards,

Howard


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Dear Howard,

Thank you for your thoughtful suggestions. Yes, battery techniques are optional depending on the users familiarity with charging techniques. The 9V package is a general recommendation for the average hobbyist and more technical types can substitute anything they are comfortable with. However, we still need a standard as a base point and I think the battery in a trailing box car or combine will do it.

There is no room inside a typical H.O. diesel for a battery of almost any size, so the trailing option is one for all except for the scratch builder. We'll experiment from this end and let you know our results.

Yours truly,

Lewis Polk

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All-

For info on Lipo batteries, go to

http://ultralifebatteries.com/subcategory.php?ID=1&topn


Loads of technical info------a manufactures site



Herb:old dude:

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Dear Lewis,

    Thank you for your reply. I agree that there is no room inside a typical HO scale diesel for a battery, unlike the larger scales. I will be building an On30 locomotive soon, plus a small layout for it, so I'll have plenty of room inside for my battery. I'll be using the running mechanism from Bachmann's On30 trolley, but building my own body, to convert it to a mining loco like this one.



     But for my regular HO scale diesel and steam locomotives, I'm very interested in what you decide to produce. I don't like to clean track or wire the layout, or deal with small 4 wheel locomotives that like to stall on turnouts. I would much prefer battery powered trains controlled with R/C.  I'm very interested if I can buy a product that allows me to plug a wireless and battery powered decoder into the DCC port on those trains.

Regards,

Howard

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Dear Howard,

Thanks for the input and I agree. There is one more element I need to bring up for the track powered people running r/c and that is the capacitor issue. In my opinion a capacitor is needed to handle oxication on the track. Yes. we turn the power all the way up, but there are still dirty spots and connection problems that capacitors will take care of in a momentary way.

We're going to produce a supplementary board with an array of capacitors on it, but more that likely that will need to be in a trailing car too if there is limited space in the loco. If you're scratch building or doing On30 than you probably can fit it in.

All the best,
Lewis Polk


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Sorry, I have posted the time for chat ( RADIO CONTROL) as 10 pm on the 8th. March

It should read 9.00 pm.
:doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh:

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Dear All,

We're looking at r/c with track power and determined we need enough capacitors to allow for a 1 1/2 second gap. We will have an add on capacitor board that can be daisy chained to add as many as needed depending on the number of locos in the consist and length of the train. We're also working on battery power, but the 8v lithium rechargeable is a dream at the moment and we will use and new liFo4 style at 1500 mah and 9.2v.

It's safer and newer technology and we can get a wall pack auto cutoff charger for this pack. Of course you can daisy chain as many of these as you need and two packs will fit in a trailing car. No way to put it in a loco due to space requirements.

We intend to demo at the NMRA show in April and deliver in the early fall. The tx is the same, but the rx requires special micro smt work to get everything to fit on the smaller board.

All the best,
Lewis Polk

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Dear All,

Here is a new updated spiel on our Revolution. There are some new features shown, though conceptually it's the same.

ARISTO-CRAFT TRAINS

698 S. 21ST STREET

[size=IRVINGTON, NJ 07111 USA]

http://www.aristocraft.com        

ph# 973-351-9800 fax # 973-351-9700

Service to Hobbyists since 1935

 

[size=The New Revolution Train
Engineer is a Thill!]

 

 Dear Model Train Hobbyist,

I have been in the hobby train business for some 50 years and I have never been so excited to bring a new technology……product to you. The Revolution Train Engineer is just that product and it sets a new standard for operating model trains.
 
It’s on a new glitch free 2.4 GHz frequency that is internationally and FCC approved for all hobbyists and was created from scratch by our engineer using a new state of the art chip from T.I. This also gives 2-way communication for transponding and activating signals and other accessories automatically, so there will be a capability to operate most electrically triggered devices. The transmitter has an easy to read scrolling, lcd back lit screen with large buttons that have a 1,000,000 estimated usage before possible failure. The radio range is a glitch free 400+ feet and the linkage is shown on the transmitter. You can name and identify by road number each of your locos and join any one of them to a m.u. setup or drop them without re-linking. A theoretical thousands of users could operate simultaneously without interfering with each other and you are immune from outside interference as each packet of information is sent 1,000 times per second with it’s own identifier code that only a linked receiver could understand.
 
Our M.U. solution is elegant and you can operate up to 6 locos in tandem or have one or more as a pusher. In short we mimic most D.C.C. controls other than specialty customized “CV’s” by specific makers. The system is either track or battery power and when used with track power we have a supplementary capacitor board that can be daisy chained depending on the size and number of locos used. This will allow the system to function better when track is less than perfect or there are connectivity or switch issues on your layout.
 
This allows routing of trains via remote switch machine control and the ability to run multiple trains in any direction on the same track. You can run a locomotive that will only go 1” in an hour or set momentum controls for long train consists that is similar to the real train start up conditions. We have 1024 steps to allow for realistic resolution of key functions and we have an adjustable time delay between direction changes. Most wiring to the track is eliminated when battery power is used and any wiring required is simplified.
 
You can see the direction the train is going in and which model you are controlling on the screen along with speed, linkage, battery condition and other features. There is a belt clip with each system or the transmitter will fit in a shirt pocket. The receiver antenna is only 1 ½” long, so the black art of antenna placement in the loco is no longer an issue. Aristo-Craft/Crest sells a battery pack specifically made to optimize this system in both G and H.O. The choice of which system to use, track or battery, depends on the legacy of the track you already own or the length of running time needed. If this is an 8 hour a day store display than battery power is not a solution and only track power can be used for example.
 
We will have a sound system out soon that allows you to control all sounds with just one serial port wire and the sounds are all polymorphic digitally recorded state of the art sounds. All functions, including lights, will be operated by a single wire to simplify installations.
 
All in all, you have total control of your models in an easy to understand system that even a cave man can do (We don’t want to get cavemen annoyed at us…..but!  J). We’ve added fun to model railroading, but in a way that anyone can enjoy without pouring through manuals.
 
This system is built to a milspec standard unlike anything done in model railroading and will bring you years of satisfying operation of your trains. Our engineers are experienced in R/C and Trains both making an unbeatable combination that offers the state of the art from both fields and we make use of the ports built into most H.O. trains and many Aristo-Craft and Bachmann trains to make them plug and play. Other locos are easily wired in and the end result is equal control no matter which model train you use.
 
All the best,
[size=Lewis Polk, President]  
 

 


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The Crest Revolution Train Engineer Introduction[size=]  
 
Most large-scale railroaders are looking for something that is easier and more user-friendly to use. The Revolution TE has the features that most of are looking for, whether they use track power or battery power. Because the menus are in plain English, it is a very user-friendly method of train control.
The Revolution was designed with the general hobbyist in mind and that means that are whole staff has to be able to use it, not just the engineer who worked on it. We know there are other choices for you out there, but we wanted to make a system that did not come with a college text book as the instruction manual.  
Not only did it have to user friendly, but we wanted to make it rock solid with perfect control at all times. This is a well-built piece of equipment that enhances your enjoyment of operating trains and is as trouble free as we could make it. Plug and play on our trains and quick installation in most others. 
Our M.U. assignment program is especially elegant and the entire Revolution system is mature from day one according to our early testers. Our receiver directly supplies power to the locomotive and is not a separate board, so that a power draining and electrical noise making fan is not needed. 
Crest/Aristo-Craft knows this is your hobby and that you want to enjoy running your trains, not learning how to set them up. Even a caveman can do it (thank you Geico and our apologies to any upset cavemen out there) and our manual is used primarily to familiarize you with your system, not act as a reference book. 
We do virtually anything you want your train to do and make it easy to happen. Battery or track power is your choice and either way is as much fun.  
Please look us over and have a test drive. Fahrvenugen for trains! 
 
All the best,
Lewis Polk 
 
 

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Lewis-what happened to CREST's HO DC ENGINEER system? I know of some On30 modelers who use this and at the moment are having trouble finding new boards. The Aristo Craft on line catalog shows this as being available but nobody seems to have it in stock. Please inform us as to availability, the receiver size fits nicely into On30 and most HO locomotives.       Woodie

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Dear Woodie,

It was a great idea, but the 75 MHz caused to many problems with the motor noise and we've changed to 2.4GHz. This frequency is above any possible motor noise problems, so we discontinued the 75 version and will re-make it to this new frequency.

All the best,
Lewis Polk

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Lewis-

Does this mean that the folks that bought the old system are abandoned?

If so, what assurance do you offer that those investing in the new 2.4 system, at a rather large expense I might add, will not find themselves in the same position in the not to distant future?


Herb Kephart:old dude:

Last edited on Wed Mar 18th, 2009 10:51 am by Herb Kephart

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Dear Herb,

Yes, they are abandoned, not  only because of the frequency problems, but the maker of the main component, Daewoo, went out of business. We would have to re-design from scratch anyway and still have a lesser product than our new version that is now state of the art. 2.4 will be available for the forseeable future, so we have decided to make the best product that will last. However, nothing is forever like old t.v's that are now obsolete.

All the best,
Lewis Polk

Last edited on Wed Mar 18th, 2009 12:45 pm by lewispolk

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Dear Lewis,

Are there plans to sell the HO-version in the Netherlands (Europe) as well? And where?

Regards,

Albert

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Dear Albert,

Yes, the advantage of 2.4 GHz is that its legal in most of the world. Son once we can get a CE approval in addition to the U.S. FCC approval we can sell it everywhere.

75 MHz is a U.S. only frequency.


Our distributor in Europe will be Bachmann-Europe with offices in England and in Germany.


All the best,
Lewis Polk

Last edited on Wed Mar 18th, 2009 02:59 pm by lewispolk

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Dear All,

As an update, we have delivered 100 beta test systems and are awaiting the results of input from those G Gauge guys. Once it's done we will rush into mass production of the G unit and then start work on the H.O. receiver. The transmitter and programming is the same for either scale.

All the best,
Lewis Polk

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Dear All,

The first shipments of the G Gauge version are due in May fifth and I'm quite sure they will fit in ON30 models as well. You can order them from your favorite retailer that deals with Aristo-Craft Crest and Bachmann in Europe.

All the best,
Lewis Polk

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Lewis-what are the dimensions of the board? When you mention "programming", will that be required to operate this new unit?      Woodie

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Dear Woodie,

The dimensions are 1 1/2 x 2 1/2 x 3/4 high.

Yes, you need to program from the transmitter as you can use up to 50 locos from the one transmitter. You can adjust momentum, steps, reverse delay times, etc. You can also have consists of up to 6 locos working in unison, so there's a lot to program or you can accept the defaults.

All the best,
Lewis Polk


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Would need to be about one third that size to be any use to me.

I think that I speak for Woodie also when I say I have no need for momentum, reverse delay or multiple locos.


Herb:old dude:

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Dear All,

This is the size of the current G version, but we will do an H.O. version later. The attributes mimmick DCC, so we're adding them as most people do want more.

All the best,
Lewis Polk

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Dear Lewis,

Thanks for sharing this information with us. The new system sounds very promising indeed.  One question I have is, how many Volts (min-max) does the receiver need to operate properly? I would want to run the system on battarypower only, not on current by track.

Best regards from the Netherlands (Europe)
Bart

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Dear Bart,

The system requires 9v to work, but can go up to 24v.

We will have a 11.1 v 800 ma battery pack available, but of course any battery pack over 9v will work.

Yours truly,
Lewis Polk

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Dear Lewis,

could you please tell us the dimensions of the battery pack? I'm thinking of starting with a scratch-build loco and was thinking of using Li-Po batteries. But if the Aristo-Craft battery pack is not to big, using this one is worth a consideration too, I think. Having the RC-system as well as the batteries from the same supplier would be easy.

Thanks in advance,
Bart

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The size is 3" x 1 1 2" x .5"

We have some in stock, but not the full R/C system yet or the charger.

Yours truly,
Lewis Polk

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To be honest, I'm not sure how the read these sizes. The 3 Inches width is clear, but could there be a typo in the length and thickness?

Best regards,
Bart

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Bart-

In Metric that is roughly 72 x 39 x 13 MM



Herb:old dude:

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Thanks Herb,

so instead of 1 1 2" it should read 1 1/2"? Anyway, these dimensions should give some posibilities, I think. Let's see what nice loco I could put all parts into... :Hmm:

More to come in the next weeks ;)

Best regards,
Bart

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It is 1 1/2" for the width and the thickness is 1/2" as well as the legnth being 3".

All the best,
Lewis Polk

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Bart.

If you want to see other size batteries available in Li-Poly Batteries checkout "Common Sense RC"

http://www.commonsenserc.com/page.php?page=battery_html.php

They list their batteries by metric size.

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Gardenville,

Thank you for this link. Here in the Netherlands, the Li-Po battery packs are also available, so getting these won't be a problem.

To my idea, it could be an advantage to have the RC-system and the battery pack from the same supplier: a kind of plug-and-play, if you like.
Sadly, on the Aristo-Craft site, I can't find much info yet on the Revolution Train Engineer, besides the instruction manuals. So I'm really looking forward to further details of any kind.

Best regards,
Bart

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I am really glad to see some action on this thread, I thought everyone was asleep! Nice to know that Crest will have what sounds like a Lithium-Polymer battery pack for their r/c system. The 9 volt battery wasn't really a viable plan for those who really want to operate. There are 11.1 3 cell packs with more "punch" than the 800MAH jobs, check Common Sense's site, Bill thoughtfully provided the link. In what we are doing, size is indeed a consideration but power is a concern also. I am using a Common Sense 7.4 volt job in my Garrett (which has 2 motors) and am getting a decent run time and power output on what I think is 800MAH. The r/c car boards I am using will operate on a single 3.7 volt battery on up to 11.1 volts. All my locos, except one, run on 7.4 volts. I found that when I was running DC, I never ran the engines with more than 5-6 volts to get "prototypical" speeds so 7 volts is just right. The one engine using 11.1 is a modified Bachmann On30 Shay with a large Sagami motor which ran unbearably slow on 7.4 but is acceptable with 11.1.

The saga continues.....Woodie

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Dear All,

Our manual is full of details, but we also have a video on Youtube explaining the system at least in G.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=4F8A3A675C417B62&sort_field=title 

You will hear an hour long talk and demonstration of the system.

The battery is suggested and not fixed yet as well as the connectors. We're going to check everything out in G before delivering H.O. It will not be long as the transmitter and software remain the same and we only have to re-configure the receiver.

All the best,
Lewis Polk

Last edited on Tue Apr 28th, 2009 01:32 pm by lewispolk

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Dear All,

Another concept is whether or not you wish to run as a railfan or an engineer and both are possible with the Revolution. Especially running at scale speeds will help if you're in the engineer mode, where our speed indicator, coming directly from the train, allows you to run at scale speeds.

Our consisting is easy and immaculate and is transmitter based, not receiver based for ease of use. Whether you want to run long trains and a lot of consists at the same time or you like to route your trains to a schedule from various points to others the Revolution makes it easy.

The signals are so clean to the receivers even if hundreds are in use simultaneously that there is no interaction between operators and their control.

We think that when large club layouts get hold of this system they will universally understand the elegance of the Revolution. We're working on H.O. and O Gauge versions too as we speak. We will show these at the NMRA National Train Show in Hartford, Connecticut in July and answer any and all questions at that time. It bears repeating that we are an internationally accepted frequency and the communication is bi-directional. There are no base stations or super boosters needed and the selections are all done on the graphic screen.

Also, we will show that battery operation in all scales beats track power and signals going through that track. Why bother when our radio signals are far faster and direct to the loco.

All the best,
Lewis Polk

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Hi Lewis,

In looking at all the information on your new RC system it seemed that the hand held controller also showed the current voltage left in the battery. Am I correct?

Thanks.
Bill

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Dear Bill,

The voltage is the amount left in the transmitter, not the train. We can't figure out how to analyze the battery power without spending more than the whole Revolution price to do so.

Sorry, but we will continue to monitor for such a feature posability, but not now.

All the best,
Lewis Polk

Last edited on Thu May 14th, 2009 04:42 pm by lewispolk

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Dear Lewis,

the Youtube video was pretty clear and understandable, even for me as a stranger to this language. I was a lot of information at once, though :shocked:  :)
The system does seem to have a lot to offer and I'm looking forward to the point where it is available in Europe too.

Best regards, Bart

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Battery power does indeed beat track power, wiring, dirty wheels & track, open circuits, short circuits, dpdt switches and other such nonsense. And while wireless is the way to go, just remember that no matter what system you use, that old Tyco Chattanoga Choo-Choo with the tender drive won't run any better than it does on dc-chose your locomotives carefully...a piece of crap will still be a piece of crap even with the most sophisticated equipment. If I have offended anyone with this, remember that I get the big bucks for being a jackass!     Woodie

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W C Greene wrote: .................a piece of crap will still be a piece of crap even with the most sophisticated equipment............. If I have offended anyone with this, remember that I get the big bucks for being a jackass!     Woodie................

Well, you must be a poor man. This is far not enough for being a jackass.....I wouldn't speak Dutch here, but you should hear me at home!

Albert

p.s. There is no news on my personal RC-front because of a little (hopefully temporary) financial inconveniance......

Last edited on Wed May 20th, 2009 07:23 am by scratchbuilt

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Albert-yes, I know that I could have been worse! These days, I am sitting back and watching which way the radio control "movement" goes. It is really satisfying to see so many model railroaders interested in r/c, I have great expectations for what I believe is the future of locomotive control. As for what I am up to, unless it is raining, I can get outside anytime and run trains with no problems. There are "natural" hazzards such as twigs, leaves, and tiny ants which must be taken into consideration before a trip to the smelter or switching the yards. But then, the real railroads have to deal with fallen trees (twigs), rockslides (maybe a leaf or two), and critters wandering on the rails (ants). On the side, the tiny ants scale out to about an inch long in 1:35 scale which replicates what we have in the SW USA and Mexico so even the ants are "in scale". As long as I run really slow, most of the time there are no derailments-the railroad I model had daily derailments- and that's all I need to worry about.

On the Li-Poly battery front-a company called COMMON SENSE RC has a very economical and extensive line of these "power supplies" that can fit into most anything HO, On30, On3 railroaders own. There will soon be a battery that will fit into even HOn3. Check out this line, it is well worth investigating.      Woodie 

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ebtm3 wrote:
Eric-UK  Are you still around? If so, can you shed any light on how to take the output from a receiver, that is meant to work a servo, and convert it to a off-on signal? Re-reading past posts, it seems that you may have the background, and the knowledge, to solve this problem- see my post from 1-1-09 5:13pm

Herb,

Now that I am back from the 'darkness'.
I have a couple of units that do this fitted in a Large Scale sternwheeler. Each will switch two seperate functions as either latched or non-latched. Unfortunately they are much too large for model train use and must be connected to an auxilary servo socket (not motor or steering).
















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I just noticed on the home page that there were no postings lately, so here goes. Things are indeed pretty quiet on the r/c front, I would like to think that it is because everybody is busy building r/c locos, etc. But I really know better. Once again, I am "amused" at the lack of interest taken by manufacturers (Polks not included, All-Trol also). The "mainstream" model rr mags just seem to be full of the latest dcc stuff, old guys using dc are forgotton about, and those who are venturing into r/c are perhaps seen as nutcases. One manufacturer's rep even told me that you COULD NOT RUN A TRAIN WITH A HELICOPTER BATTERY (like E Flight). He "informed" me that using radio gear would harm not only the warranty but the dcc board. I told him that I threw the dcc board away and he muttered something and then had to go. That's the stuff I seem to get from "those who know". I guess ignorance is bliss, so I will blissfully run my r/c locos with equipment that I can't use and continue to void warranties. Anybody else have any tales from the "dorkside" like this? Yep, I said dork. Radio control has advanced a lot since I got into it, the plane flyers, car racers, boat runners, and even the robot war guys are way ahead of model railroaders. Will we continue to model in the last century or will we advance in this hobby. Time will tell and as we all know, time is a hard taskmaster.

                        Woodie 

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Hi Woodie,

I called Polk's this morning to ask about an update on their small trains RC system. I was told to call back in a month or so.

All-Trol is a 1.5 man operation right now so new things may be slow coming from that area. Ray at All-Trol and I talk on the phone every week or so about things he is thinking about or things I dream up.

I want to build a small RC Demo Layout to display at local Train Shows with a completion time schedule to have it ready for when the Lone Star Region NMRA Convention is here next summer. I want it to be track and scenery only and use dual-gauge HO - HOn3 track. That way I can show several different scales / size Locomotives running with RC and Batteries.

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Good idea about giving R/C exposure at a NMRA convention, Bill!

  Fortunately, distance will keep me from messing that up for you also!


Herb   :old dude:

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Bill-the best display layout you can have for r/c is to run the loco across the floor or table with no track. But beware, there are many nitpicking idiots at the shows and they feel that it is all "smoke & mirrors" and somehow you have a hidden string to pull the loco along. Be ready to explain how batteries work, wave forms on an oscilliscope, the nature of quarks, and the distance from the earth to the sun with these guys. They always know more than you do! All that aside, I think you should do it and maybe next year, I might be able to run down I-35 to San Antone for the big convention. If I make it, I will bring a couple of pieces of funk to show off and then we can play with trains on the floor like God intended.         Woodie

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On our exhibitions of the Kreativmeile we used to play with battery locos as well as with life steam. So you can imagine, how the rails look like.

On one exibition in Paris, someone was rubbing his finger along the rail and asked us: "How can you run your locos with this dirt on the rails? The answer that we use radio control didn't seem to reach his brain, and he continued to ask: Yes, but how can you  get the power to the locos with this dirty rails. "We use batteries and radio control"
"Yes, but how can you ..." and so on and so on.
 I think think this was too far beyond his imagination, to use something else than track power and DCC. 


Juergen

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Juergen-amazingly, the same type of conversation occured between me and a gent who first told me that he was an electrical engineer. He asked "how does the power from the battery get to the motor?". Then ""how does the battery get a charge from the rails?". I tried to tell him about radio control and of course, he knew far more than I did so he just kept asking the same questions over and over. Finally, he got upset with me and walked off muttering about my ignorance of electricity and physics. AND then, as I was running a loco on the FLOOR of the exhibition hall to demonstrate r/c to a couple of fellows, two more guys stepped over the loco as if it was a dog or cat crawling around and never gave it a thought! Both events happened at the same show. The highest compliment came at a local hobby shop when we ran an r/c loco across a glass display case, the store manager looked at it and said "that's unnatural!". Probably the idiotic response I have gotten at shows about my r/c trains has caused me to not exhibit anything at shows any more. It's not the general public-they seem to love the r/c concept-it's the silly "finescale" types who think I need to stay home and out of sight. Maybe they are right, I should stay home and run my trains without interruption from them. Are we having fun yet?    Woodie

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That is why I introduced my local HO Club to RC this way. I got a few questions and some got it. Then the track DCC went down and my demo unit kept on running.

That was a "Teach-able" moment.

1.


2.


3.

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W C Greene wrote: Juergen-amazingly, the same type of conversation occured between me and a gent who first told me that he was an electrical engineer. He asked "how does the power from the battery get to the motor?". Then ""how does the battery get a charge from the rails?". I tried to tell him about radio control and of course, he knew far more than I did so he just kept asking the same questions over and over. Finally, he got upset with me and walked off muttering about my ignorance of electricity and physics. AND then, as I was running a loco on the FLOOR of the exhibition hall to demonstrate r/c to a couple of fellows, two more guys stepped over the loco as if it was a dog or cat crawling around and never gave it a thought! Both events happened at the same show. The highest compliment came at a local hobby shop when we ran an r/c loco across a glass display case, the store manager looked at it and said "that's unnatural!". Probably the idiotic response I have gotten at shows about my r/c trains has caused me to not exhibit anything at shows any more. It's not the general public-they seem to love the r/c concept-it's the silly "finescale" types who think I need to stay home and out of sight. Maybe they are right, I should stay home and run my trains without interruption from them. Are we having fun yet?    Woodie

Remember that great innovators often are, at first, considered nutjobs. :!:

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Yetterman wrote-

Remember that great innovators often are, at first, considered nutjobs. :!:


Well put , Jake


Herb,  :old dude: who qualifies WITHOUT being any kind of an innovator--

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One of my favourite new words (add or take 1 letter from a real word and come upwith a definition), so much so that I had it printed on a T-shirt:


Bozone (n.): The substance surrounding stupid  people that stops bright ideas from penetrating.


I'd be happy to try R/C, but I think my locos might be a bit small! Maybe in a couple of goods wagons permenantly coupled...

Last edited on Thu Oct 8th, 2009 08:07 am by Stickboy

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I say try it anyway. You can put the "stuff" in a tender or trailer car with a plug to hook up the locomotive. Where there's a will, there's a way.      Woodie

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W C Greene wrote:  Probably the idiotic response I have gotten at shows about my r/c trains has caused me to not exhibit anything at shows any more. It's not the general public-they seem to love the r/c concept-it's the silly "finescale" types who think I need to stay home and out of sight.
Woodie, no, you must keep kicking them against their shin, shwowing them, that it works.
You are good in explaining your way of loco control. Look, I have already been using special "DCC-like" RC-systems ( like the Train Engineer) for my model trains for a long time now. But your remarks, why you are prefering a stick transmitter made me thinking, that this guy may be right. And now as I have tried, I'm so happy with this kind of, I will say "absolut direct control", that I won't change back.

And by the way, your layout is really to greath and picturesque, not to show it to the public.

Juergen

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Juergen-I will leave the kicking to younger cats. My foot still aches from kicking as many as I have already! The Mogollon Railway has been visited by many fellow modelers, all they have to do is drop by (when it isn't raining). I'm just not into the show thing any more, I like to stay at home and work on the railroad.

I like seeing what fellow "experimenters" are doing in radio control, I don't buy any new stuff, just an occasional battery or maybe some new crystal sets (I lose stuff) but I do try to keep up with what's new in this field. Once the "mainstream" modelers become aware of the benefits of true wireless operation, manufacturers will have to get on board with the program. It couldn't happen soon enough for me. Keep working, the future is here now....just some are afraid to admit it.     Woodie

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Hi all,

I model in HOn30 in which running reliability is challenging.  I haven't read all your posts as there is too many pages, but do you think R/C has potential in smaller scales?

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Hi Rod,

you could ask Lewis Polk, when the H0 version of the new Aristocraft Revolution Train Engineer will be available and you can read the thread about the AllTrol System Gardenville uses.

The smalles parts I have found for a 2,4 Ghz stick transmitter, I have reported here

http://www.freerails.com/view_topic.php?id=2199&forum_id=45

and here

http://www.freerails.com/view_topic.php?id=2102&forum_id=45

Juergen

Last edited on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 04:24 pm by Toeffelholm

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Rod- several posters here have RC in HO using either rechargeable or alkaline 9V "transistor" batteries (the rectangular ones that are about 15X20X50 mm) At one time Woodie had a loco that used a coin type camera batteries.  Plantraco, who sell tiny electric powered airplanes, make a receiver the size of a postage stamp that gives speed control, but no provision for reversing as airplanes are very seldom required to back up

http://www.microflight.com/





This radio uses 1 LiPo cell (3.7V). There is also a relay available that can be wired into the steering circuit of the receiver, that will work on that voltage and is double pole, double throw. This is also to the right in the above picture. This can be used for reversing. This is not Plantraco, but I can tell you where to get them if you are interested.




Does this look like it will fit?



Herb:old dude:

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The October 2009 Issue Of Railroad Model Craftsman has , in its insert on period modeling, short blurb, that they are putting an on-board battery system in an O scale loco. The system that they are using is the Red Arrow (http://www.a1micromotive.co.uk). This company makes two systems. One is infra-red, the other is true R/C. With infra-red you loose control when the train is behind scenery, buildings, in tunnels, etc. The loco keeps going at its last commanded speed, unless it receives another, different command. From the pictures, programing instructions and wiring this looks to me to be based on the system sold by Loco-Link in the USA. I have some experience with the Loco-Link, and while someone that is comfortable with all the programing of DCC might feel right at home with it, My transmitter and four receivers are quietly resting in a box, and I use a 27 MHz Transmitter, and R/C car boards---clean, simple, and does all I ask of it.




Herb:old dude:

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Also, E FLIGHT makes a micro helicopter(CX) which has a truly tiny board. Of course, it doesn't have reverse, but I think that a fellow with some electrical moxie could use the blade pitch & hover control posts to get reverse. The E FLIGHT stuff is easily available from hobby shops as well as the tiny 3.7 volt li-poly battery. Two of these could be wired into a 7.4 volt 2 cell job which would run a decent HOn30 loco. As to whether the board would handle the additional voltage is conjecture(by me).  Again, this may be a case of buying a neat r/c toy and then tearing it to pieces as an experiment. I believe this would work, it only takes moolah and a willingness to screw something up. The Germans have some very tiny r/c boards available (I am sure there's links around here) but the battery size is pretty much a constant. Another thought-the tiny toy r/c cars that can be bought at electronics stores and toy stores for 10 bucks can be used to run something like a HOn30 critter or even an old class A Climax model. The Climax had 2 speeds anyway so that may be ideal. If you want to run around a layout and don't do any switching, then a single speed board would be fine. For operation (switching), something more sophisticated and expensive is called for. Keep us posted.     Woodie

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Herb,

Wow, these are little; thanks for that info.  This might be worth trying. 

Bill Cosby once had a joke that he likes to sit in the back of the plane, because he has never heard of a plane backing into a mountain.

I'll do some research and see what I can find locally.

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Herb-I just read the bit in RMC about the r/c "old time" layout. Getting 30 minutes run time is for the birds! Obviously, they don't read freerails or they would know what kind of battery to use. Also, that big old hunkus 3 pole motor in the O scale Genoa probably eats power anyway. I can't get to the site with the link you posted, but will investigate further. But, oh my..that "transmitter" looks like some antique calculator. At least there is some r/c "action" in the mainstream model rr press.  Woodrow

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Try this link:

http://www.a1micromotive.co.uk/what_is_red_arrow.html

W C Greene
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Thanks, Bill. Well, first I read the "programming" instructions which rival dcc programming. So much for that. Then I located the info which explained that the system operates with INFRA RED...it's a TV "Clicker"..At least it's wireless but it ain't true radio control...it's remote control. Somehow, someday...

Right now, ALL-TROL, CREST, and r/c car systems are what there is! Infra red control is the same as what's in toys. Even the 10 dollar r/c cars have radio control. I have heard for some time that CVP Products is working on an "HO size" receiver and I do hope they get it out before long. CVP is one of the original dcc companies and is run by some forward thinking folks. The best is yet to come, get your Captain Kirk space pistols ready.                       Woodie

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Righ5t on Woodie----with OBBRC any news is good news, I guess.


WE SHALL OVERCOME!!!!!



Herbie

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Well I finally got through all of the posts and I am sold, in fact I bought a $6 r/c car at Wally World and am in the process of figuring out how I will install it on a B-mann trolley motor unit.

The r/c unit is single speed but I am going to use a couple of AA units parallel. I haven't checked how slow the voltage will run it but should be fine.

One of thge reasons I have hesitated building a layout over the years is that I could figure out the intricacies of the wiring need. I enjoy hand laying track (I am in On3) but all the d@^#d gaps and wiring needed have stopped me.

Another reason I like the r/c deal is that my trolley mech runs jerky on the track but is S L O W  and smooth on the glass table top when wired direct. I have run real 3 foot NG equipment and it runs at a crawl.

Thanks for your pioneering work Woody and I have decided you aint half a crazy as you make out to be.

John (quincy) Adams

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Well John, you are on the way to having a model railroad that runs smoothly and is wireless. As you noted, forward and reverse is enough, if the loco that you are using will run slowly. Once you get a little time running with batteries and R/C, you will want to "upgrade" to proportional speed control, and rechargeable batteries, but you are approaching it the right way. Far too many folks have a closed mind when it comes to R/C--if they would give it a try, as you are doing, it would open their eyes.



Herb  :old dude:

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John-I am happy you are having fun, that's what it is all about. Herb & I know that wireless is the way. There are quite a few guys here who run r/c...Sullivan, Trebor, Bill, Jim (mopman), and my old buddy Mudge..plus many more fellows who understand that this is only the beginning, the best is coming. I know that I ain't really crazy, and over the years, crazy would be the mildest thing I have been called, some model railroaders believe what we are doing is akin to live animal sacrifices and bloodletting. Please pass the goat.

In the r/c thread, you will find some great info by Bob (Trebor) about using cheap r/c car boards. Bob has some critters that run nice & slow and he really doesn't need proportional control, just forward & reverse. My little Model T has such a board, a real T with railroad wheels would probably start in 2nd gear and run with the throttle set so a simple form of control is all it needs. Old class A Climax locos only had 2 speeds forward so a simple board would work for that also. I'll bet the AAs wired in parallel would make the Bachmann trolley truck run at a nice "sedate" speed, good luck! Let us know what's happening and if you have any questions that we may be able to answer, send them along.          Woodie

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Herb and Woodie;

It's good to be here and thanks for the welcome

 I put a multi-meter on the trolley and at 1.5v it runs at about 3 scale mph. With that I started tearing the r/c car apart. It looks like I may have to modify the body (a Yorke junk yard dog) as I can't get 2 AA in the engine compartment. That or I may just scratch a body for this one and use a LiPo and proportional drive on the Yorke.

I have to say that is way cool to see a loco running on a glass table top.

John

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John-

If the length of the AA's are the problem, consider a 9V "transistor" battery, with a resistor to slow the motor down. A slight amount of length can be "lost" with these if the snap type connections are removed, and the battery hard wired in--just a thought

Herb:old dude:

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John-here's something else to try (may cost a bit, but works)-go to the CVS Pharmacy, etc. and get a CR-2 3 volt lithium-ion camera battery. These are much smaller than the AA's and will pack a nice punch. I used these when I got started and had an On30 railtruck that ran off one of these and a single speed receiver for almost a year. I ran the truck at a couple of train shows and on my layout quite a bit before it went "south". Check out the small camera batteries, you may find something useful there.              Woodie

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Thanks guys. I may try the 3v and see what kind of speed I get. Going with 2 AA ends up being a little tall (stacked on top of each other and a hair long. I love to make things so I may play with the current setup and build a body to fit.

John

Having more fun than I've had in years

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You could also try checking battery manufacturers' websites.

They often contain datasheets for their products - showing stuff like dimensions, battery life (usually quoted at some current that makes them look good), end voltage and suggested applications. Some also include discharge graphs (which can be very useful to design engineers).

I quite like the Duracell site:

http://www.duracell.com

If you click on the "technical oem" flag, followed by "product data", you get a list of all their batteries, together with links to pdf datasheets for them. I've found them extremely informative.

I hope this is of help to someone.

All the best,

Huw.

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While on the subject of battery datasheets, I've noticed that Duracell's sheet for CR2032 / DL2032 coin cells has a typo - they've shown them as 2mm high - should be 3.2mm.

Their overview sheet for lithium "coins" is correct.

(OK - you probably won't use "coins" in a RC loco - but you might in a calculator, or as a memory backup on your computer.)

The size of lithium "coins" is coded into the type number - the first 2 digits are the diameter (in millimetres) - the last 2 digits are the height multiplied by 10 - so a 2032 is 20mm diameter by 3.2mm high.

All of which goes to show that manufacturers' data sometimes needs to be checked (and not just for "spin" - I'm an electrical engineer - I'm allowed to be cynical).

As for that Bachmann trolley mech, I don't know if you'd have enough space in the new body for some AAA's - they're shorter and narrower than AA's - a lot cheaper than CR-2's.

Personally, I'd be wary of using resistors to reduce battery voltage - as well as wasting most of the juice as heat, it's never been the most reliable way to set voltages.

Given the choice, I'd always go for lower voltage batteries - in series if you need to increase the voltage.

If 1.5V works, you only need to find space for 1 battery - which might make things a bit easier. I'd never go for parallel connection, as it's too easy to wreck batteries that way!

That's my way of looking at things - it's not the only way - but I've always been cautious. Whatever you try, I hope it works.

All the best,

Huw.

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Huw-the CR-2 batteries I am talking about are NOT pancake types for watches. These are about as big around as a AAA battery and maybe half as long. I am sorry, but I don't have any to measure for you. Here in the US, these are sold at drug stores, grocery stores, and almost every convenience store you may see. If you use proportional speed control, then you may use higher voltages, Herb & I use 7.4 volt li-polys which gives us sufficient power and a much lower "top end" which suits our lesiurely running style. I do have one loco which has an 11.1 volt li-poly because the Sagami motor in it runs fairly slow. My buddy mopman has an 11.1 volt li-poly controlled by a KYOSHO board in his HO GP-35 lashup. At the local shows, we run this loco for several hours hauling a 10-12 car modern freight train and switching along the way. I don't think the little camera batteries would last during a full-blown operating session unless the layout had no grades and the short train was lightweight cars. But for some critter that just shoves a couple of cars around or a railtruck, they may do the trick. It's all fun anyway.   Woodie

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Woodie & Huw-

The Duracell site shows CR2's as being (aprox) 15.6mm diameter by 27mm long, Lithium-Manganse.

And Huw , you are dead right about resistors, but I have found that the mention of voltage regulator IC's scares away most model rail types!



Herb  :old dude:

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Sorry I didn't make myself clear.

I wasn't imagining for one second that anyone would use "coins" to run motors.

I was merely pointing out a typo - and using it to make a point about checking data.

As for the reference to AAA's, CR2's are very expensive in the UK - so I was wondering if something more readily (and cheaply) available could be used. I seem to have got the wrong end of the stick - for that, I can only apologise.

Sorry about the misunderstanding.

All the best,

Huw.

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Huw-we're having fun here! Yes, the little lithium camera batteries are expensive here also, but for certain applications, they last a long time and the size may be a deciding factor. Have you priced rechargable li-poly batteries and the chargers lately? The COMMON SENSE company has the most inexpensive li-poly's I have found and if you don't want or need a charger to do other battery types, a small li-poly charger is reasonable. Example: a Common Sense 7.4 volt 3 cell 800MAH battery retails for around $15 US and the Hobbico charger is maybe $30 US...an E Flight Celectra charger is about $40 US, both types need a 12 volt dc source, but that can be had rather cheaply. The 800MAH battery can be "hidden" inder a Bachmann On30 Porter cab roof and with a little "creative cramming", the Losi (or other) board can be stuffed into the cab. With a couple of crewmen and the "stuff" painted flat black, nobody can really see what's inside there. Carry on, sir.              Woodie

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Battery price update-at work, we got in some Common Sense li-polys today. The neat 800MAH 2 cell 7.4 volt jobs are 13 bucks! That's retail! These have 2x "quick charge" capability, making them a bit harder to burn up. Other sizes are cheap (my opinion) also and they are high quality. Just thought I would get this news out.    Woodie

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Note-I just started looking at this thread and have not read it from the beginning.

I been involved with RC flying for about 18 years and have been flying electric powered aircraft exclusively for 7 years.  I use both brushed and brushless motors and LiPo packs.  Amp draws vary from 5A to 50A.

 Over the past 2 years I have been RR modeling in 1:20 & 1:24 scale on 45mm track using battery power and radio control.  I've tried a number of different speed controls including a brushed airplane ESC with a servo controlled reversing switch, an RC boat ESC (it has reverse) and now some RCS EVO speed controls.

The only problem I found with the plane and boat ESCs is that their switching rate is so low that there was a whine generated in motor.  There is a brushed motor ESC made for RC robotics and it has a high switching rate so you don't get the whine.
http://www.dimensionengineering.com/SyRen10.htm

The batteries I use for the RR'ing are Li-Ion.  While I fly using LiPo's I'm not comfortable using them with RR speed controls because these speed controls don't have the proper cutoff circuitry for LiPo's.  If LiPo's are discharged too low you can run into some major problems.

The Li-Ions I use have a protection circuit built in so they aren't discharged below their safe level.  I get my packs from this online vendor-
http://www.all-battery.com/li-ionpacksandmodules.aspx


I would just caution all those considering using LiPo's to measure the amp draw on the locomotive and calculate the run time so that you don't discharge the pack below 3.1v per cell.  I also highly recommend using a balancing charger which charges each cell in the pack individually and keeps them all at the same voltage. If the cells in a pack are not balanced, one or more may be discharged or charged too much which can lead to major problems (fires!!)
Check out RCGroups.com battery forum for more battery and charger info. 
Again be careful using LiPo's they can be very volatile if abused (discharging too low and/or improperly charging)

I hope this has been helpful,
Dave

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Dave-welcome and thanks for the info. You are the guy we have been needing to inform us about r/c from the "experienced" side. For years, I have told those interested in r/c trains that they need to make friends with flyers or car guys to learn more. I agree, Li-Poly batteries are dangerous if misused. I charge mine at a low rate, time is not a factor because I have other locos that could be running while one is being charged. One of my locos has been using the same 7.4 volt, 800 MAH Thunder Power for about 6 years or so, my other locos have never needed new batteries either. I set out to promote r/c in trains, not Li-Poly batteries, I just prefer them due to the power output and physical size. I have "researched" r/c along the way, but when I decided to go this route, I didn't sit and read and ponder...I just did it. Of course, the Lord loves fools and is watching over me, I need all the help I can get. I trust that you will be able to give us your take on all this and help us unwashed hackers to understand what we are doing.   Woodie 

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Dave

First, let me welcome you to FreeRails, glad to have someone with your experience with us!

The allbattery.com site that you provided a link to has a very impressive offering of batteries. At this time, like Woodie, I am using LiPo's- but I have "lost" a couple--one by forgetting to turn off a receiver, the other by trying to cut a 3 cell pack down to 2 cells--both my fault of course.The Li-Ion battery with the circuit that prevents full discharge is interesting to me, and allbattrey certainly has a number of packs to choose from--but no information on the physical size of the cells is given that I can see. You are modeling in a scale that gives you the luxury of having more room that those of us working in the smaller scales. Do you have any dimensions of single cell sizes in the low MAH end of the line that you could share? I am sure that they are larger than LiPo's but how much larger is the question. Since the cell voltage is the same as LiPo, will a LiPo charger work with them?



Herb:old dude:

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Herb-if you navigate to a "certain size" battery, you can find the dimensions. Looks like this company has some high power stuff, more so than what is available at the hobby shop. To be truthful, I will stay with what I have since I can buy the batteries at "cost" through the store. I checked out a 3 cell li-poly with 1600 MAH and the dimensions are pretty much what Thunder Power, etc. offer. If I need more batteries, I will contact this company for sure. For now, I get great run time and am happy. Thanks again to Dave for this info.    Woodie

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Woodie-
Thanks-I just didnt scroll down far enough  :doh:


Herbie:old dude:

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Glad to help out here guys.  Thanks for the kind welcome.

The Li-ions have been working well and I like the protection circuit.  That's what will keep you out of trouble.  Again you have to be sure to use a lithium charger set correctly for both voltage and amperage with both Li-ions and Lipos. The usual amperage setting is at 1C or the 1xmilliamp rating of the pack for charging (1500mah pack charge rate would be 1x1500-1500ma or 1.5A).  Voltages are 2S=7.4V, 3S=11.1V 4S=14.4V.  These are nominal voltages and the packs will show a higher voltage coming off the charger, but if the charger is set correctly the pack will have been properly charged.

I still prefer using Li-Ions but if you are going to use Lipos check out http://pencenaroundrc.com/ Mike is redoing his site right now so check back in next couple of days.  He's got Flightmax (relabeled Zippys) and Turnigy.  He also has Turnigy chargers.

Another vendor is http://hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_index.asp . Go to batteries and you can choose from Zippy, Rhino and Turnigy.  They're all good.  Don't submit an order with any items that don't show a positive number in the IN STOCK box.  The'll hold up a complete order if even one item is not in stock.  You have to maximize your order to get the best deal on shipping.

Because of the lower amp draws in model RRing you can go with lower rated C packs (15C or 20C).  In RC flying we need high C rates because of the high amps we draw. 

Again use a Lithium charger, balancing prefered, and set it correctly.

I'll be anxious to hear what ESC's you use.  As I said I've tried some aircraft and boat Esc's but the whine from the motor was annoying.

Hope this helps, please feel free to ask any questions and I'll try to answer.

Dave

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Dave-I have used KYOSHO MINI-Z RACER receiver/esc boards for years. They are rather hard to get now, and very expensive so I guess I have all I will need. I have used TEAM LOSI MICRO-T boards also, they are cheap-30 bucks US-and easy to find. These are for r/c cars. As I have said, I am very happy with these and the li-polys and have been using same for some years without problem. Motor whine is sometimes noticeable, but I imagine that (since I don't use sound effects) the noise is a turbo whine. If you are running 1:20.3 scale outdoors, then you will need some real power and a heavy duty esc, but what I have is OK. The search continues.    Woodie

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Herbie,

I'm missed answering one question you had sorry.  Most Lithium chargers will charge both Li-ions and Lipos.  You need to check the specs on the charger.

I use a Great Planes Triton to charge my Li-Ion packs with the protection circuit.  It can be set to Li-Ion and you set the voltage and charge rate amperage.  It is not a balancing charger.

For Li-ions and Lipos with balancing plugs I charge using an FMA Cellpro charger.  This is a very sophisticated charger that charges each cell in the pack individually.  As its charging it monitors the cells and slows down charging a cell that has higher voltage (out of balance) and lets the others catch up.

Turnigy has a new charger (well its been availble since early summer) that balances the same way and also charges just about every battery chemistry. Both PencenaroundRC  and Hobby City carry it.

There are a number of chargers out there.  I highly recommend sitting down with a favorite beverage and perusing the RCGroups battery forum-http://www.rcgroups.com/batteries-and-chargers-129/ I

t has tons of info on chargers and batteries and has an excellent search function.

Again hope this helps,

Dave

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Thanks Dave

 I use the Losi boards, because I couldn't find the Kyosho without buying the whole car. There definitely is a whine- about 1KHz I would guess, that can be somewhat (but not enough) muted with a bi-polar cap. I can live with this, because my hearing is crap- too many motorcycles, too much shooting, without ear protection years ago.
A long time back I bought a LocoLink Xmiter and 4 receivers. at that time it was NiCads or nothing--not even NiNH- and found that even though I am in O scale, all the gear would not fit in the loco that I was building. so it got shelved. When Woodie got me re-interested in R/C I got the gear out, and with smaller batteries used it for a short bit. There two things that, if forced to do, I would abandon R/C--I will not put the gear in a trailing car (except for the tender of a steam loco) because the fact that the car always is seen with the engine is offensive to me. The other- and the reason that I put the LocoLink back on the shelf, is that I find trying to do switching by pushing "speed up" or "slow down" buttons is just too clumsy to suit me. The sticks on an aircraft Xmiter give a lot better control. This is Woodies feeling also.

If money was no object, I would go with 2.4 GHz, if for no other reason than the shorter antennas, and if I live long enough for the price to get reasonable, I might just do this.

I use two LiPo cells, and I do not balance charge. I am aware of the 1C charge rate, but charge at 250 MAH (as does Woodie) because we feel that it is easier on the battery and we are not in a hurry to get back into the air. I intend to do some reading this evening of the links that you have kindly provided

BTW, and OT, were you aware that a Italian two place full size aircraft went 155 MPH with a brushless 75Kw and LiPo's?--see http://www.skyspark.eu/web/eng/index.php

Thanks again for the info that you have provided.


Herb  :old dude:

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OK Herb,

Have I got a deal for you.  How about a 2.4 system for less than $40shipped.

 transmitter -- http://www.snhobbies.com/product_info.php?cPath=54&products_id=511   $38

receiver-- http://www.snhobbies.com/product_info.php?cPath=55&products_id=619   $10

shipping $10

This Flysky system is marketed under a couple of names- Hobby King (Hobby City), Esky, Turbourix, Exceed. I have a couple and they have eliminated the glitching found with 27 & 75mhz systems.  I have used one in a plane, train and sailboat with all working just fine.  The RR environment seems to be electronically the noisiest and 2.4ghz seems to far less effected than the others.

Hobby City has it and also the 4 channel version  with a low price though their shipping is a bit more.  They come with a receiver included but no programing cable for the 6 channel radio- its extra --http://hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_listCategoriesAndProducts.asp?catname=2%2E4Ghz+HobbyKing&idCategory=295&ParentCat=190          The 4 channel version doesn't use a cable to connect to a computer to program it as there is no programing in the 4 channel radio.  It works just as well as the 6 channel.

Hobbypartz has it with the programing cable to connect to the computer and a receiver included --  http://www.hobbypartz.com/exrc62tr.html 

Tony at RCS (http://www.rcs-rc.com ) and Del at G-Scale Graphics (http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/DelTapparo/) are both using the radio with their new RR speed controls.

Even though the receiver has two pieces (main rcvr and satellite) you can remove the sattelite rcvr and everything still works.  Antennae are about 3" long.  (NOTE- I wouldn't fly a plane with the satellite removed!)

I have used the 4 channel and 6 channel with my older RCS Evo speed controls and have just ordered one for a friend.  I installed RCS Evo's in two of his 1:29 scale loco's.

Dave

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Dave-

Thanks VERY much. a lot to absorb --working on it.

Definitely going to buy, but SN seems to only take paypal which I don't have.

Trying to get them on phone, to ask about other payment options



Herbie  :old dude:

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Herb-before you order, you had better find out if this transmitter has "reverse" as well as the receiver. Just thought I'd ask.    Woodrow

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Woodie-

If the throttle stick is full stroke, then the other stick will be elevator and will be center neutral (off), and can be used the way that you and I do--I think L:  :us:


Right Dave ?


Another question Dave--Do the TX and RX have to be matched as to the number of channels? IE- will a four channel TX work four of the six channels on a six chan. RX?



Herbie:old dude:

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Herb,
I've used the throttle stick (unsprung) with a reversable boat ESC to run a loco.  Centering the stick produced off in the ESC.  Moving the stick away produced forward motion, moving the stick back towards yourself produced reverse.  Make sure the trim tab is centered.

You don't have to match the number channels on the tx to the rx.  If there are more on the rx you just aren't able to access the higher numbered channels (usually #5 which often works retracts, #6 which is often used for one aileron in conjunction with channel 1 the actual aileron channel for separate servos on the ailerons).

On these radios the scheme is 1-aileron (right stick moved left /right), 2- elevator (right stick moved forward/backward) 3-throtttle (left stickmoved  forward/backward) 4-rudder(left stick moved right/left).

Dave

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Dave---- just ordered a TX/Rx set, also the smallest reversing ESC that I could find that wasn't brushless.

Next thing when it comes is to see if it will all be crammed in to the latest project, a scratch built Ingersoll-Rand  oil-electric in O scale.

Thanks for confirming what I thought was the answer to the channel question.


Herb:old dude:

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Pictures, pictures!!  I really like gas/oil electrics and O scale makes it even better.  Also what speed control did you order?

Dave

Last edited on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 09:25 pm by dottney

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Dave-

Some pix are posted in "Along the Octoraro & Eastern"

As to the speed control- I ordered from Hobbypartz

p{margin:0}1/16 Exceed RC Electric Blaze Buggy: Optional Brushless Electronic Speed Controller

which means that I goofed- the word "brushless" didn't appear in the small pix, and while I looked at the more detailed description I guess that I overlooked that it was brushless.  I'm guessing that brushless motor speed is controlled by pulse frequency which means that it isn't going to do me any good--story of my life--just noticed that brushless showed up when I copied the above from the order confirmation.


Herb

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Herb,
Oh bummer about the ESC.  Brushless will not work with the brushed motor in a loco.  Call them and see if you can redo the order.

Here's an ESC you might consider if it will fit.
http://www.dimensionengineering.com/SyRen10.htm
Note the description addresses the switching rate and the elimination of motor whine with the high switching rate.
While I don't have one of their ESC's I have a couple of their other devices (Lipo shield, BEC's) and they're excellent.  The owner is a really nice and very knowledgable guy.

Off to look at your stuff.
Dave

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The 2.4 Exceed-RC radio came today. The RX is considerably smaller than the Koyosho board. The main unit is 45 X 23 X 13 mm reducible to 8, if you are willing to solder the ESC connections to pins, instead of using plugs. Of course an ESC is needed also.



The smaller unit to the right (25 X 17 X 7) is the satellite RX which Dave says is not needed.



Herbie:old dude:

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Herb,

that's a real cheap offer. The disadvantage is you don't have the choice between several RX.

You know, I'm using the Spektrum 2,4 Ghm system. There you can have it much smaller.



The left one in the picture, is the one I use in my smallest vehicles.
It't doesn't have this huge standard plugs, but uses very small "JST" plugs.

But it is from Spektrum and won't work with your system I think.

Every esc works with pulse frequency. A brushless esc just has an additional electronic to control brushless motors. There are some esc that can control both brushed and brushless. So the word "optional" in your esc describtion my be a hint for this.

Jürgen



Last edited on Sun Nov 15th, 2009 03:55 pm by Toeffelholm

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Fellow r/c nuts, here are a couple of photos from the Fort Worth, TX model railroad show this weekend. Why would I send photos from a show? Well, here you can see not only the future of narrow gauge modeling (On30) but 2 teens having a blast running RADIO CONTROLLED TRAINS! Both kids brought dcc/sound equipped On30 locos but what did they WANT to run for almost the entire Saturday show? They ran 2 of my 1:35n2 r/c locos on the Texas Outlaws' On30 modular layout. Of course, the dcc operations were a "work in progress" which happens at every show...finally up & running later as usual. Check these guys out.



16 year old Stephen Grief is shown operating a Mogollon Railway train (larger scale but same track gauge)...what's that in his hands? It's an old JR 2 stick transmitter which is my prefered transmitter-it has sticks.



17 year old Matthew Cornell is having a ball running a train with my old Kyosho car transmitter while Stephen is engrossed in some operations in the background.

Both these kids are rabid about their trains and I thought that it was totally cool that they wanted to run my old r/c lokies rather than run their own dcc/sound lokies. Here is proof that the younger modelers would rather have fun with their trains vs cleaning track, wheels, becoming electrical engineers from tiny print manuals, and all the other "traditional" stuff. Here is the future of the hobby.

As an aside, I got to have a blast at the show, meeting old friends and looking at stuff I couldn't afford and the kids were left alone with my trains for hours..no problems at all. They proved the worth of li-poly battery life also, the locos ran more than 6 hours each and they are still showing a good charge here at home. The guys learned a lot and I learned a lot. I just love this stuff.     Woodie

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Way to go Woodie!!

Best thing about it was that you gave them a transmitter, and walked away.



Herbie:old dude:

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Herb-something must have happened-2 fellows who went to the show contacted me about radio control. Both were nicely refered to this site for more information. One guy is HO and the other is On30, both interested in running without the hassles they have put up with for years!              Progress...

               Woodie

BTW-both teens shown are interested in r/c now also.

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Good news!

Exposure is the key, it seems. Once they see it work, they are more inclined to realize the advantages.

Keep up the proselytism!


Herb   :old dude:

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The DARK SIDE is a strong force which must be obeyed.

Resistance is futile...I once tried...and failed.

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ebtm3 wrote: Exposure is the key, it seems. Once they see it work, they are more inclined to realize the advantages.

I recently watched an episode of "Tracks Ahead" (am I the only one who watches this?),   and one of the features was on a large G Scale layout in Arizona by a man name Dan Hoag.    During the segment, he indicated that all of his trains were run on battery powered remote control because he was no good at wiring (hard to believe with his welding skills),   and that RC seemed like the most logical way to do it.


I googled a bit and found his site: http://www.eaglewingsironcraft.com/
and pics of his layout: http://eaglewingsironcraft.wordpress.com/2009/06/24/wild-eagle-rail-road/


If this fellow is world famous in train circles and I'm doing something like introducing Richard Petty to a nascar site,  I apologize in advance.

tom

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Tom-My opinion-anyone building an outdoor railroad 7/8 scale or smaller who is not using radio control is not using common sense. Garden railroaders have been using r/c for many years so this kind of thing is "old hat" for many. When you talk about smaller scales, that's when the opinions become more "heated". Some of us wouldn't consider any other way to run, some consider r/c as "tomfoolery" and "unnatural". Everybody has their own idea, and that's what makes this all so much fun.  Woodie

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Another great advantage of battery powered RC  I'm not sure has been mentioned is the fact that WYES and Reverse Loops are no problem with battery power. No worries about changing polarities.

Jurgen, you're right about having only one receiver to choose from but at US$15 or less I'll deal with only one size. 

Woodie, its great seeing you get kids turned on to RRing.  Are you having any glitching problems with the JR or Kyosho transmitters?  That was the reason I went from 75mhz to 2.ghz.
Dave

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Dave-the kids were already model railroaders, they are now radio controlled model railroaders. I doubt they will get rid of their dcc/sound locos, but they do want to run some r/c.

You are right, no problems with reverse loops, wyes, etc...when there is no wiring...there is no problem at all! All you have to do is remember to set the turnout (switch) properly or your loco will happily run across the scenery-just like the real thing.                 Woodie

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WC ,,would i lose the sounds of my Bachmann steam engine by going remote RC?,,I finally got one and sure like the chufs and bell and whisle and stuff,,,and dont really want to run more than one engine at a time,,being in RC for 40+ years i have plently stuff laying around that i can use as most of it goes to tiny electric aircraft so size wont be a factor,,just dont want to lose the sounds,,,jim

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WC,,also like your UT cat,,whats its name?,,,mine is jake the UT cat,,,jim:cb:

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Jim,

are you actually running your loco with DCC?
What kind of soundmodul are you using?

Juergen

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Jimbo-where can I begin? First, you won't be able to run a r/c loco with airplane r/c...no reverse! At the moment, the All-Trol (see other posts here) system has sound but it is pricey. Others will have to deal with sound, I don't have it and don't care for noise effects. You won't be able to "plug & play" with dcc stuff and r/c...right now the 2 approaches are not compatable. Most of us here are using r/c car boards and rechargable batteries but if you dig into the threads, you will find plenty of info that will help you. The info here on freerails is the most available anywhere on the "net" so just sit back & read the posts. We are still experimenters so anything is "fair game".

As for felines, Peach Head is a 13 year old tabby who rules the house and does what he wants. He's an indoor/outdoor cat who has a cat door and has been known to bring captured "friends" inside to show off. He's too well fed to kill & eat the prey, so all visitors are alive and scared silly!       Woodie 

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Jimbo-

i have been "messing around" with R/C and batteries for a while now, mostly finding what doesn't work, and what not to do. One thing that I found is that you can use the circuit board from a servo, to drive a can motor in a locomotive. Using Futuba R/C for this, there is very little "dead" spot between forward and reverse- for quick response of the function in aircraft, I presume. This works, and you can use what you have, if you can live with this problem. The R/C car boards have more of a dead spot built in.


Try R/C ---you probably wont go back once you enter the "dark side"


Herb  :old dude:

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thanks for the reply and my jake does the same thing,,recon they be kin?,,ole fart jim;)

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I had forgotten about the steering part being used. In earlier posts, Bob (Trebor) explained how he has a Futaba 2 channel, 2 stick car radio controlling 2 critters. Both critters have LOSI Micro T boards and the same receive frequency crystals in each board. One board is wired the usual way with the motor posts, the other is using the left & right steering posts (he explains how to do this) therefore Bob can operate 2 locos with one transmitter and control each independently. I have tried to control 2 locos or one loco and a railtruck at the same time and I ain't got the gray matter to let me do this. I am a one loco-one engineer operator. It is a great idea though.

BTW-some fellows are wondering if the on/off switch can be replaced with a magnetic reed switch. YES. I would use a CIRCUITRON or similar locking switch (stays on or off after passing a magnet over it).  I used these long ago on my On20 layout so I could run one loco while another could sit on a siding and be off. I glued an old motor magnet on a stick that I could pass over the switch and turn it on or off. A kind of "poor man's dcc"...the layout was dc with no blocks or power routed switches (turnouts) and it worked like I wanted. Again, one loco at a time for me.

If you plan to have visiting engineers to operate, you will need more than one transmitter unless you are especially "close" to the visitor. I have a motley assortment of Futaba, JR (my favorite), LOSI, and KYOSHO transmitters so as many as 5 guys can run at the same time (I only have 6 locos and 2 are on the same freq). If I didn't want anybody coming over to run my trains, I believe that I would have ALL locos on the same frequencies so I wouldn't have to change transmitter crystals. Using "modern" 2.4 GHZ transmitters/boards..you no longer need crystals but still need to "link" the transmitter and loco to run. I doubt that I will modernize and go 2.4 since I can't afford to replace what I have now and since it all works like I want...why change? The ancient 27 MHZ equipment I and others use will start appearing (already!) on ebay, etc. and sell for cents on the buck since every r/c nut wants the latest stuff. If you want to do cheap r/c, this may be the time to look for deals. Now, if Li-Poly batteries become old fashioned, I will stock up.

Just some comments and thoughts.         Woodie

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yeah,,it sounds good but for now i will keep using the Bachmann,,at least until i change my ole mind,,,thanks, jim

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Uh Oh, Herb-looks like Jimbo is "skeered" of the wireless thing. Maybe we need to send Guido and Mario down to visit him for a little "exercise"...Hmmmmm.

                      troublemaker

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God i hate to fix something that aint broke,,,yet,,,jim (ole farts going to bed,,have a good nite),

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That's OK Jimbo. Someday you will get tired of cleaning track & wheels, wiring complications, short circuits, dpdt switches, open circuits, stalling on plastic switch frogs, switch points not making contact, and did I mention-cleaning track & wheels! Then you will see that it is broke and needs fixin'.....we will still be here...running trains.    Woodie

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DCC with the factory Bachmann tsuami sound,,it is great and i dont want to lose it by going with the RC stuff,,so far the DCC is doing ok but,,,i will be taking some of my RC stuff and playing around and see what i can make work,,jim

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Now you're cooking. Since the established model railroad manufacturers are reluctant to venture into radio control, those who want it will have to either buy the All-Trol system or go their own way.  The new 2.4 GHZ systems are made for all r/c ventures, unlike the old am & fm systems where car modelers were banned from air frequencies, etc.  The future is still out there somewhere. I realize that sound is now the most wanted thing and anything that is silent is old timey and not interesting. Model railroaders are nuts over noise and when someone comes out with a Blackberry operated, bells & whistles, PC friendly, digitally recorded, easy to use radio control board already installed in RTR locomotives, things will change. Then the only thing left to explore is human genetics-how to make 1:87 and 1:48 scale folks who can live in our laser cut clapboard homes and run our tiny trains. H G Wells would be proud.

Meanwhile, I will be running trains and listening to the sound of nature...I love my antique junk.                       Woodie  

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jimbo4216 wrote:
DCC with the factory Bachmann tsuami sound,,it is great and i dont want to lose it by going with the RC stuff,,so far the DCC is doing ok but,,,i will be taking some of my RC stuff and playing around and see what i can make work,,jim

Hi Jim,

If you want RC and Sound (Battery Powered) then take a look at a few of my Threads here. I use the All-Trol RC System and have two of their Sound Modules. They have engine noise, bell and whistle. Not the "full" feature sound of the DCC Sound Decoders but it is not to bad. It also is cheaper than the DCC Sound Decoders.

R&D is working on something "NEW" in battery powered RC Sound and I have hopes that we will hear something and see a prototype in the next couple of months.

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W C Greene wrote: Then the only thing left to explore is human genetics-how to make 1:87 and 1:48 scale folks who can live in our laser cut clapboard homes and run our tiny trains.
They prefer to be called "micro people". 

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jimbo4216 wrote: DCC with the factory Bachmann tsuami sound,,it is great and i dont want to lose it by going with the RC stuff,,so far the DCC is doing ok but,,,i will be taking some of my RC stuff and playing around and see what i can make work,,jim
Jim,

I'm looking by myself for simple sound solution for my RC controled locos (Spektrum 2,4Ghz)

The Soundtraxx tsunami you are using is a combined dcc decoder and soundmodul, and this has to be controled by DCC. You cannot use a RC esc and get around the tsunami motor control.

But you can use "pure" soundmodules together with standard RC, when they are designed for DCC and DC use as well. The RC-esc in your loco is nothing more than a built in DC control (with pulse wide disortion).

But you have do some additional work if you want to use single sound function, like whistle and bell and so on. You have to plug one ore two additional RC-switches on your receicer and little relays to serve the function inputs of the sound module. Or - but I assume you know this way-  you use REED-switches in the loco, activated by mangnets in the track.

The more sound-, light- or whatever-functions you want to control, the more the effort will increase.

In brief, if you want to have the possibilities and the range of functions, you are used to have with your DCC, I would really recommended to use a special Modelrailway-RC like the Al-Trol System, The 2,4Ghz Aristo Revolution system (if they will ever manage to develop a H0-decoder), or the german "Train Control" that is changing to 2,4Ghz now and thus usable in US as well. (Or you stay DCC)

With the time I have found for me, that I do not need all this functions, DCC provides and that I really love controlling a loco with a stick-transmitter.

Juergen

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Jurgen, Woodie, et al.,

Is there a section/thread on this message board that provides measurements of the various RC components?  Some of this stuff sounds a little expensive to buy only to find out it can't be 'crammed' into the application.

Gary

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As far as the components I use are concerned, you may have a look through

http://www.lasergang-shop.de/kreativmeile/node/162

I know it's in german, but I think dimension will be obvious.
Please don't hesitate to ask, if you need further information.

Juergen

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Gary-of course, I have the "luxury" of a larger scale, but for me, the KYOSHO MINI Z RACER boards fit well into most On30, etc. locos or tenders. The big thing is batteries. Right now, LITHIUM POLYMER rechargables are what I use, they will fit into what I have built. Remember that I don't have (or want) sound effects so I am getting 6 to 8 hours of run time with these. Add sound and you can expect maybe 1 hour or a little more. Since we operate my layout, we don't want to be recharging batteries every hour so the longer charge life is just fine. When you get over here, you will see what I am talking about. Talk is fine, but real operation cuts the wheat from the chaff.  My friend Mopman has a diesel lashup in HO with li polys and Mini Z board which is used for local runs and lots of switching. He gets the same long run time and that is with "antique" Athearn locos and hauling 12-15 50 foot cars on a large layout with 2% grades in places. Everybody has their own opinions on this and what we are doing may not satisfy others...but we are having fun and running trains. To each his own.

                 Woodie

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Gary-

The small radio equipment tha Juergen is talking is under "Bucher" and then "verwendete motor-regler"  The rest of the site is worth looking at--the pictures are all in English---


Herb:old dude:

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Excellent info gentlemen...I think I'm going to start a thread where folks can post the dimensions of their R/C equipment & batteries.

Juergen, those batteries look tiny!  Are the R/C boards and batteries available for export?

Gary

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I use the old steam engines ( Bachmann):old dude: for logging,,how do they sound?,,,jim

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Jim-old logging locos sound just like old steam used on mainline runs...maybe the whistles would be a little "punkier", but steam sound is steam sound. I suggest you listen to steam locos on youtube, etc. or maybe get a cd of old locos. Not much to add, you wouldn't want a UP "Big Boy" whistle on a Porter but then it's your railroad and you can do whatever you want.

          Woodie

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Hi all,

You do not need 'on board' sound at all. There is one other way:

Look at this: http://www.ossynths.com/pagina.wxp?menuid=2505

Speakers are mounted under or in the layout. The computer knows when to play a sound and where. As far as I understood the system is triggered by the train passing a reedswitch.

Albert

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Yes-Otto's system looks like a great thing for sound in an r/c loco. For the speaker to be in the locomotive, it would need the signal through the rails which would maybe be problematic, especially if you don't want track wiring or want to keep the track & wheels clean. But the "shadow" sound looks like the deal to have if you want r/c and sound without having to recharge batteries every hour or so. I don't know how much such a system would cost, but it is available and is worth checking into. Otto is a fine modeler and an electronics whiz. He is using this system on his Eneret Peat Products display layout and it amazes viewers with not only the loco sounds but the machinery sounds also. I would be interested in hearing from anyone who is using this, it may be a way to satisfy the dedicated r/c'er who loves sound effects.     Woodie

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Reading the information on that site, several questions arise. How, with R/C OBB will the system know how fast the train is moving (unless all the magnetic switches are pretty close to the same distance apart, so that it determines speed from the progress of the train)? This information should be needed by the system to determine the "chug" frequency. Probably, on the hard wired system, it can read the propulsion voltage and determine the frequency from that. Next, how will it know the difference between a geared loco, and a rod loco, to provide the proper frequency? And finally (and one of the things that i REALLY cant stand about sound systems-- does a train slowing to a stop go --chug chug   chug       chug         chug                chug? Real trains don't sound like that except if they stall on a grade, without wheel slip. Some  of the guys that develop these systems get so wrapped up in their work that they forget what a real locomotive sounds like--I know that the fellow who designed all of PFM sound systems (and some of the PBL) had this problem- I knew him before he moved to the West coast.

Things to ponder


Herb:old dude:

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OK Herb-I knew there would be some kind of problem associated with this. since I like silent running, I will just keep my keyboard shut!  You are right (of course), I was just ponderin' and cypherin'...think I will get back to my mundane coal car project.

                  boney tacos.....Woodie

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Wow, just finished reading through this monster post. Think I know the direction to go. Always wondered about the wiring thing for a layout. Looks like to me that there is now one less reason to delay building a layout.

Bobby

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Welcome aboard Bobby!  Always good to have another Texian around!  Can't wait to see what you've got cookin.

Gary

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I initially misread your post - this is why I've had to come back and edit my reply.

Exactly what sort of capacitor you need here depends on its value. If you're just after something small, to stop "spikes" and RF interference, the exact value isn't critical - you want something like a mini ceramic disc or polyester across the motor terminals - probably somewhere between 1nF and 100nF - default value on a lot of RTR is often 10nF or 22nF.

 

If you need something really big, you're probably in the realm of the "non-polarised" electrolytic. Essentially, these consist of 2 (polarised) electrolytic capacitors, connected in series but negative to negative - each capacitor needs to be twice the total value you're actually looking for.

 

(I could raid my old college text books - and run through loads of formulae for working out series and parallel equivalents for capacitors, resistors and inductors - but, if anyone needs this, they'd be better off checking for themselves.)

Anyway, returning to the topic ... !

 

Regards,

Huw.

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Wow-my mind is reeling again! Welcome Goodnplenty to freerails and to this particular thread. Your input is appreciated. My electrical knowledge is now largely forgotten and since I stumbled on using radio control, it has been lost completely! See, I have trouble remembering what I forgot...I have had some "glitch" trouble with only 2 of my locos and I fixed that with 2 or 3 tiny caps across the motor brushes. Since I am electrically challenged, I just bought what r/c car guys use...these are made by TRINITY racing products and sold in any good r/c store. Ya'll will probably know the values of such things, I don't own any test equipment nor calculators...I live in a cave and use stone tools. God loves fools and since I am a fool, my radio control experience has been just as I imagined. I have had r/c locos for about 8 years now and will not consider any other control...unless I use dc for my little (proposed) On20 micro layout-to be run when I can't get outside and run a REAL layout. Where am I going with this? Who knows. I just wanted to say HOWDY and welcome a new guy...and keep my place in the pecking order.

                                    Woodrow

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Steve-the Li-Poly batteries we use are rechargable and can be recharged over 1,000 times...yep, one thousand times. That's longer than I have in this realm. Some of my batteries have been in locos for at least 7 years so far. The Li-Poly's are not cheap, but then you don't have to recycle them. If one goes "nuclear", there ain't anything left to recycle! I understand about polarities and charging tracks and all that, I don't have any track wiring and have not missed it at all. Everybody has their own way of doing this so carry on...and have fun.       Woodie

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Golly, think I will go clockwork.

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We just  need to wait until Woodie comes up with a working compressed air loco.

Hmm... That was a joke...Now I don't know any more...

                          Daniel

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Well, after reading this dissertation on caps and batteries and electronics theory, I feel much better. I can now go out and run my pokey lokies and have fun, not worrying about how the electrons flow from the batteries to the motor. I do have just one question: with all this technical talk, is anyone actually running a radio controlled locomotive with onboard batteries on track with no wiring anywhere?  Maybe I am grasping for straws in the wind. Somebody needs to help us learn the truth before we sink back into the swamp.

As agent Muldar says-"the truth is out there...somewhere."

                                 PH, Muj, & Woodrow

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Actually, and no offense to any of the technical posters, but I got confused real fast. I obviously have no technical abilities when it comes to electronics.

However, I can wire a motor to a board and plug in a battery to a board  (Woodie showed me how), put batteries into a controller, push the "ON" button, and run a loco (with a stick). That is the most effort I care to attempt.

There are no wires hooked to the small amount of track I have laid thus far.

Again, no disrespect, I just can't grasp it all.

Pick and shovel man...and swamp dweller,

Last edited on Wed Feb 3rd, 2010 11:47 am by Sullivan

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Sullivan wrote: Actually, and no offense to any of the technical posters, but I got confused real fast. I obviously have no technical abilities when it comes to electronics.
Again, no disrespect, I just can't grasp it all.

Join the club - confuses the **** out of me - and I've got a HND in the subject.

Wait a minute - in a lot of UK universities, there's long been a suggestion flying round that HND is actually short for "Have No Degree" - I obviously can't comment on that!

There's also another concept going round - "K.I.S.S." - I think everyone here knows what this one means - a lot of academics could do well to remember it.

Regards,

Huw.

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Ah Ha-the KISS principle...I live by it and get kiss'ed every day. Now, back to cutting wood and glueing my fingers together. I wish someone would explain why glue gets on fingers instead of parts.

                                       maybe I will try are see, sounds pretty simple..Woodrow

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Fortunately plastic solvent doesn't glue fingers together...got enough of that on the ol' digits the last couple nights.

Oh...this is the ARE-SEE thread? My bad!

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W C Greene wrote: . I do have just one question: with all this technical talk, is anyone actually running a radio controlled locomotive with onboard batteries on track with no wiring anywhere? 

As agent Muldar says-"the truth is out there...somewhere."

                                 PH, Muj, & Woodrow

Although I do have wiring for DC locos to run, I don't have to turn it on to run my yard engines as you well know.

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scratchbuilt wrote: Hi all,

You do not need 'on board' sound at all. There is one other way:

Look at this: http://www.ossynths.com/pagina.wxp?menuid=2505

Speakers are mounted under or in the layout. The computer knows when to play a sound and where. As far as I understood the system is triggered by the train passing a reedswitch.

Albert

It's longer time ago I first "experienced" this system on a Schouwstra layout the first time, and up to now it is still the best sound illusion I ever heard. The Sounds were designed by himself and -maybe unbelievable for the most- electronically synthezised! No recorded sound bits, but the sound was amazing.

The early system was for analog use only. As I read in Alberts link, it's usable together with DCC now as well. But up to now, it seems impossible to me to use it together with RC.

How to get the velocity or voltage information to the Sound Feeder? Via the track? Wiring between my modules? Never. A second air wire system in the loco, sendind the desired signals?  A second external receiver and esc feeding the sound system simultaniously?  All too elaborate I think.

There are good micro sound-modules on the german market (from Dietz), suitable for RC as well, that I will try I think.

Juergen

Last edited on Sat Feb 6th, 2010 12:55 pm by Toeffelholm

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Better watch out quoting Homer Simpson, he uses r/c also.  How about this: I will send photos of r/c locos if others will also. RADIO CONTROL LOCO PHOTOS NEEDED.

                        As Dizzy Dean said "it ain't braggin' if you can do it!"

                                                          Boudreaux-keeper of the cat

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Woodrow, if you weren't so busy building a R/C swamp buggy to run in Mudge's back yard, you would remember this----




Soon to be sharing the air waves with a diseasel

Gromit's best friend

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OK Herbie-here's one from Mr Peabody's "wayback machine". Your fine 0-4-0 needs to be watched when company comes. She's one spicy meatball!

This is a photo from the olden times and shows Mogollon Railway #1, the line's oldest locomotive. #1 has had the same 11.1 volt Li-Poly battery for at least 6 years now. As you may be able to tell from the condition of the track, there could never be any wires connected to it.  Now if I could just get some r/c into that old Ford, what a wonderful world it would be!          

                                         Peach Head's younger brother

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Thanks Steve-the background is the "real McCoy"...I have few problems with lighting on my layout. If the neighbors just lived in 1:35 scale houses, I would have an easier time with backgrounds.           Woodie.

.

 

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Woodie wrote:...... Now if I could just get some r/c into that old Ford, what a wonderful world it would be! ..........

Well, that is not as strange and difficult as it sounds, in Germany it is a real model-industrie where people put rc in tiny 1:87 cars, also in 1:45. There are several companies supplying receivers, esc's, lipo's, motors, gears and even ready to run motor-gear combinations. The real masters do it in 1:160 cars!!! So in your Ford there must be plenty of room. In my opinion the frontaxel is the most difficult part...unless you don't need stearing....:doh:

Do you read german? Look here:

http://78514.homepagemodules.de/

http://www.mikromodell.de/

http://www.mikromodell.de/index_e.html      ENGLISH VERSION !!!!!!

http://www.mikromodellbau.de/

http://store.sol-expert-group.de/index.php?language=en&XTCsid=23a311d2768074d4bae71462b6fba0b7   ENGLISH !!!

Besides Freerails this is where I found lots and lots RC knowledge.

Have fun gearing up your T-Ford!

Albert

 

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W C Greene wrote: Better watch out quoting Homer Simpson, he uses r/c also.  How about this: I will send photos of r/c locos if others will also. RADIO CONTROL LOCO PHOTOS NEEDED.

                        As Dizzy Dean said "it ain't braggin' if you can do it!"

                                                          Boudreaux-keeper of the cat

Here's mine



The engines in front of the yard office are r/c with rechargeable li-polys.

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And yes, Mopman's locos are HO and Athearn I might add...They can handle a 12 car train doing local switching, up & down 2% grades, for hours. The power of Li-Poly batteries!

                                        Woodrow

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Albert-I have seen what those crafty German dudes are up to, amazing. I'm aftaid that if I had r/c autos on my layout then I might run trains less and also, the longest strech of "road" I have is in downtown Mogollon, about 6 feet long! I would however like to make a 1:32 scale r/c Model T pickup truck,,what's stopping me is the idea of making that front suspension and steering hookup so it looks scale and still would operate with r/c-that's a very noticeable part of a T. Maybe when I get old & gray...wait..I AM old & gray!

                Woodie

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Hi,

I am sure Woodie is asleep. His layout is outside so the trees in the background are real.

Take a look at this YouTube video, it is Woodies layout and it is great.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nfmiyad-1s

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Steve-Mopman is an artist in what he does...I have a degree in fart. We are both MMR's, the highest award given by the National Monkey Railroad Assn.

                  W C Greene-Monkey Model Railroader (MMR)

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Toeffelholm wrote: scratchbuilt wrote: Hi all,

You do not need 'on board' sound at all. There is one other way:

Look at this: http://www.ossynths.com/pagina.wxp?menuid=2505

Speakers are mounted under or in the layout. The computer knows when to play a sound and where. As far as I understood the system is triggered by the train passing a reedswitch.

Albert

It's longer time ago I first "experienced" this system on a Schouwstra layout the first time, and up to now it is still the best sound illusion I ever heard. The Sounds were designed by himself and -maybe unbelievable for the most- electronically synthezised! No recorded sound bits, but the sound was amazing.

The early system was for analog use only. As I read in Alberts link, it's usable together with DCC now as well. But up to now, it seems impossible to me to use it together with RC.

How to get the velocity or voltage information to the Sound Feeder? Via the track? Wiring between my modules? Never. A second air wire system in the loco, sendind the desired signals?  A second external transmitter and esc feeding the sound system simultaniously?  All to elaborate I think.

There are good micro sound-modules on the german market (from Dietz), suitable for RC as well, that I will try I think.

Juergen



Well, I spoke to Mr. Schouwstra today. He learned us that it would possibly work with the same  receiver+esc configuration under your layout, connected to his system, to provide the synthersizer with the same 'velocity or voltage information' as your locomotive. In plain english, the sound follows the speed....... For those who really wants sound with RC, just read through his webpage and send him an email for more detailed information. I'm sure he's happy to sell a few of his systems to the States.......;)

Albert

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If you want an RC system with sound all you need is the All-Trol.com setup.

http://www.all-trol.com

Link to pictures and PDF files with detail information:

http://all-trol.com/wireless/wireless.html

I have two of their sound modules, they are not the full feature sound like a DCC sound decoder and they are OK.

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Albert

Thanks for the info--might be just the thing for those who want to have sound with R/C. Sound on board the loco takes a lot of battery power--I am told more than what is required for propulsion--so since this is under the layout the power would be a separate system.

Herb:old dude:

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But that is NOT RCC and still need all track wired.

                  Daniel

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Daniel-

No track wiring for the "Shadow System", only magnetic switches to turn sound on and off as locomotive progresses around the layout. For a small switching layout even this would not be necessary-and control of the chug frequency WOULD be by R/C--another receiver, on the same frequency as the locomotive hooked to the sound unit under the layout.

More complication than on board sound, but possibly less expense for a multi-engined layout, depending on the Shadow System cost No matter how approached, sound will cost more, and add complexity. We Americans have a saying "Ain't no free lunch!"


Herb :old dude:

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W C Greene wrote:         ... RADIO CONTROL LOCO PHOTOS NEEDED.

Here are the actual locos of the TKB (Toeffelholmer Kleinbahn)






And here the RC-locos of the KEG (Kraehwinkel Eisenbahngesellschaft), my friends layout.




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Herb:

     But are you talking about the All-troll system?

     After looking at the links I understand All-troll is not RCC and do need track wiring.
     Am I wrong?

                            Daniel
   

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He! I want to know more about those models!
What scale are they?
Until now all Allan valve gears I've seen in models from H0 to 1/32 are Magic train adaptations or Bruce Green's kits. The one at the picture look none of them...

                  Daniel

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Daniel Osvaldo Caso wrote:
Herb:

     But are you talking about the All-troll system?

     After looking at the links I understand All-troll is not RCC and do need track wiring.
     Am I wrong?

                            Daniel
   



Hi Daniel,

You are half wrong.

The All-Trol RC System can be used with track power or "Battery Only". I have this system and use it with Batteries Only.

Take a look at one or many of my RC Threads here and you will see what I am doing with this RC System.

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Daniel-The Al-Trol system is similar to the CREST DC ENGINEER system that was out a few years ago. This is another design for those who have dcc except that the Crest and All-Trol have a wireless transmitter which "talks" to the onboard receiver rather than using the rails for power and signal. Both systems use power, whether from batteries or track. I have not read the All-Trol literature, but the Crest information does NOT mention anywhere that the board can be powered by batteries. The Crest system was ment to have you turn up the track voltage to 12 or so volts and then it would work. A good friend of mine figured out that the board would work with voltage applied, no matter whether it was from the rails or....a battery! The Crest is off the market now, probably due (among other things) because it was competing with other dcc systems and failed economically...if the "powers" at Crest had seen that batteries would do the job, they might still be selling the system. A story of short-sightedness or ignorance of trends. I am glad that All-Trol has such a system, it may be the future. What I don't like though is the push buttons to control the trains. Both Herb and I love our old stick transmitters...and you know my position on using sticks over buttons. Since others may not have read what I have written many times before, here tis'. I have been in all types of locomotive cabs-steam, diesel, and electric-and none operate with pushbuttons, they ALL use some form of levers-sticks! That is why we are Luddites-GIVE US STICKS !

                              Woodie

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Woodie:

    No doubt it will be sticks. But...a button? How can you control speed then?

                   Daniel

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Daniel Osvaldo Caso wrote: He! I want to know more about those models!
What scale are they?
Until now all Allan valve gears I've seen in models from H0 to 1/32 are Magic train adaptations or Bruce Green's kits. The one at the picture look none of them...

                  Daniel

Daniel

we model in 1:22,5 on 32mm track, maybe called Gn30.

The first is a kit from "IP-Engeneering" with some additions, the second aLGB-toytrain conversion with adapted Stephenson valve gears from a LGB "Stainz" (The magic train is a "Stainz" as well, just smaller). If German is ok for you, you some more info here
http://www.lasergang-shop.de/kreativmeile/node/539

The third one my friend calls a baggage-loco and is a scratchbuild on a "Faller E-Train" base. The last is a Decauville loco fron a german manufacturer called "Regner"


But I have one more. A Gn15 loco from my friend (KEG) that I have converted to RC




Here's a picture with the RC components



Juergen

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Daniel Osvaldo Caso wrote:
Woodie:

    No doubt it will be sticks. But...a button? How can you control speed then?

                   Daniel


Daniel,

The All-Trol System has a knob to control the speed function. I own and use transmitters with both a knob and or a stick to control my RC and don't have a problem moving from one to the other. We are lucky that we can pick and chose what we want to use. For me it was a matter of space available for the receiver and battery. The All-Trol System is smaller so I use it.

I think Woodie has a "stick" fetish. That is a joke.

I have flown Helicopters and used both a "stick - cyclic" with one hand and with the other hand the "collective". Lots of fun. Lots of bottoms and other things to do and many of them at the same time. You get real good at multi-tasking or you may just die.

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Bill-regarding my "fetish" about sticks...there are many more guys with "fetishes" out here, you may hear from some. Yes, you can do what you want, I have never liked twisting a knob or holding down a button to run a train, and this goes back to when I was a child about 8 years ago. I will hold with what I believe, next time I climb into a steam loco's cab, I will be sure to ask the engineer where the knob and buttons are. That ought to get a few laughs.       Woodrow

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Woodie,

Don't they have some sort of RC for controlling real trains with more than one engine? How do they control them. I have no idea but have wondered when I see a bunch of engines coupled together pulling a long freight through San Antonio.

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Daniel Osvaldo Caso wrote: Herb:

     But are you talking about the All-troll system?

     After looking at the links I understand All-troll is not RCC and do need track wiring.
     Am I wrong?

                            Daniel
   


No Daniel, I am talking about the system that Albert (Scratchbuilt) had a link to a few pages ago---- http://www.ossynths.com/pagina.wxp?menuid=2505


Herb :old dude:

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Oh!
Now I understand.

Of course.

(Otto is a good friend of mine and an amazing modeller.
Pity he lives far from Amsterdam.)

            Daniel

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gardenville wrote: Woodie,

Don't they have some sort of RC for controlling real trains with more than one engine? How do they control them. I have no idea but have wondered when I see a bunch of engines coupled together pulling a long freight through San Antonio.

Bill- engines coupled together are controlled electrically with the multi- connector jumpers between units.

But in the case of engines cut into the middle or rear of a consist (to avoid pulling the whole coupler assembly out of the lead car in a long train) there has to be some sort of radio link between all the units. Wonder what frequency they use? the information must be encoded to prevent someone trackside from playing engineer with a transmitter.

Herb :old dude:

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Herb,

My Brass Traction fleet has grown to 8 units.

I got a nice Suydam Illinois Terminal System Class C (model #1579) at a local train show last Sunday. It looks like new and is painted a dark sort of Green Body with a Reddish sort of Roof.

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Bill- sounds good! Congratulations!

The red/green colors are correct for a class C in one era, although I think that the IT called the red "terra cotta"


Herb :old dude:


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ebtm3 wrote:
Bill- sounds good! Congratulations!

The red/green colors are correct for a class C in one era, although I think that the IT called the red "terra cotta"


Herb :old dude:




Hi Herb,

Thanks.

I believe "terra cotta" is the color. Good then the color should be good for me.

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Daniel,

Otto is not far from you, what about me, I live in the bottom of the world. Melbourne, Australia.

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Rod:

   Well, knowing that, from now on I'll consider him my neighbour!

                                                                                      #:-)

                 Daniel

  

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I don't know how they control locos cut into the middle of a train, it has to be r/c but the throttles in the locos are...STICKS!

How about this-many years ago, my wife & I watched a loco being controlled with r/c in a large open pit mine out in AZ. The "engineer" was standing near us while he controlled the loco down in the pit hauling loaded cars around the pit to the ground level. When the loco & train got to the ground level, he got in the loco and took off. The man was using a large transmitter to control the real locomotive and guess what? The transmitter had a BIG STICK! No buttons or knobs..a stick!  So, I have seen a man run a real loco with r/c and that got me "thinking"...this was maybe 20 or more years ago so I don't know if the operation is still working.

I do realize that most all model railroaders are addicted to knobs and buttons just like I am addicted to sticks...it goes back to the ancient days of table thumpers and track cleaners. Just like Teddy Rosevelt said...."speak softly and carry a BIG STICK!" Who am I to disagree ?

                                       Woodrow

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