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Restored 70' McKeen Motor Car
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 Posted: Tue Feb 10th, 2009 03:20 am
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ytter_man
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Lets not forget that the Great Wall of China isnt really all that great, one Emperor just decided to link all the existing sections of protectionary walls together. :old dude:


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 Posted: Tue Feb 10th, 2009 12:42 pm
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madmike3434
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gardenville wrote: It is really to bad that the person who starts a thread can't delete replies.

If I could Mike, I would delete you out of here.


so Gardenville, you wish to be the dictator, el presidente like Joe Stalin. Ya need to loosen your thong strap.

As an American citizen you wish to go against your own first amendment?  Freedom of speech.  The right to assembly ( me in here ).

For your information .  A correct restoration is that which restores the item to the exact same way it appeared and functioned AS NEW. Using the original motor design.

A cosmetic restoration is one that makes the item look as it did originally.

mike

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 Posted: Tue Feb 10th, 2009 03:24 pm
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madmike3434
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ebtm3 wrote: Mike-

Same type, just a few years later "production" one. The original plane was cannibalized by the Wrights, to make following experiments. Years later, they scraped up all the old parts that they could find, and used them to "recreate" the plane, and sent the result to the Science Museum in England, because they were mad that the Smithsonian wanted to give Langley credit as the first. The plane came back to the US and went to the Smithsonian after WW2, only after the Wright heirs extorted an agreement from the Smithsonian, that even if other evidence came to light the question of the Wrights being the first would be supported by the Smithsonian

Read "History by Contract"  O'Dwyer & Randolph


Sorry, Hotshot, I know that this is off railroad topic.


Herb:old dude:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxThe only way anybody can 100% dispute the ''''who was first'''''' arguement is to hop into their time machine and record the actual event with their time linked camera. This could also apply to the one loaf and one fish bible claim , he fed a multitutude of people. And did anybody really rise again on easter monday .????Only time machines can answer this and many many other questions about history.madmike3434...........the whitby GRAND  thongmaster

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 Posted: Wed Feb 11th, 2009 06:42 am
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steammodeler
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All restored machines have certain flaws. Anyone attending a true classic car,aircraft, tractor, or other "machine" show with some amount of knowledge must realise that the restored versions look many times better than when the "machine" was first produced. The #22 V&T McKeen I'd be sure never had a straight body panel from day one. The metal riveted construction certainly would not have allow for temp changes and the plate production then was nothing like todays modern sheet metal mills. We know from historical text that the original drive lines were replaced quickly after delivery as they were underpowered, fragile, tempermental to operate, and very undependable. Technology at the beginning of the last century was progressing at such a rapid pace that there was no reason to "store" the old. This was very true of the railroad era, the 5 masted skooners, the motor car, clothing, and just about any other element of the past. We seldom see gas powered refridgs, hit and miss powered washing machines, we don't shave with straight razors, technology has moved on new and....well......improved. We can be thankful that private donations, charities, persons,  and other organizations have kept many aspects of the past surviving. It would have been a shame if someone didn't at least attempt to "restore" not only in this case the #22 McKeen, but many of the relics of the past that otherwise would just be a fading memory of mans past. Many materials available at the time of production simply do not exist anymore, knowledge has also been lost, never to be revived. The Statue of Liberty was "restored".....but not using the same old materials as it was first constructed.....is that less of a "restoration"? Is the paint used on a classic car restoration make the car not original because the paint was not the cars original finish? Some things just didn't last or can't be produced today, so we have to .......overcome and improvise to the best that can be.

I'm glad for one that the past is "preserved" in many forms. Oddly enough; a benefit for all mankind, interested or not by all.

James



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 Posted: Thu Feb 12th, 2009 12:27 am
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madmike3434
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Steamie.........a correct restoration done properly will duplicate the fit and finish of the vehicle. In true restorer circles, OVER RESTORED has points deducted .

A local fellow here has a 1964 mustang convert and him and i have conversed many a cruise nite evening . His is a HI 90'S POINT correct restoration with the exception of the quality of the topcoat black paint. Its too smooth not enough orange peel in it.  But everywhere else, there are 5 different shades of black used on various parts of the cars chassis and underhood area. He showed them too me !!!!!!! more than once.

Its gotten to the point that you have to have all the correct chalk & grease pencil marks on the floor and firewall pans. The correct paint stick marks on various components. In a nutshell its absolutely ridiculous, but let em say this, its their bag, not mine.

A friend lent me a book once about correctly restoring a 1963--1967 chevrolet corvette. The books attention to details was MIND BOGGLING. I read it once cover to cover and vowed i would never get into that trap.  Did not matter because i was building a street rod anyway.

When you see those 60..70 hi dollar resto's cross the block at barrett jackson, you know they have been done right.  But shouldn't an untouched original 5,000 mile z28 1969 camero 302 cu in 290 hp fetch significantly more than a restored one.???  Its always an arguement that can go on infinitum.

mike

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 Posted: Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 11:13 pm
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Bill Fornshell
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Ready to roll.

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 Posted: Wed Nov 4th, 2009 01:34 am
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Herb Kephart
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An accomplishment that the group can be very proud of!



Herb:old dude:



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 Posted: Mon Dec 7th, 2009 05:12 pm
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wahiba
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madmike3434 wrote: W C Greene wrote: Well, since they ain't gonna install the original motor/drive...then maybe they should just set fire to the thing & have a bbq. I had an MG Midget like that once, I installed a Datsun 4 banger & transmission when the old MG motor crapped out. Yep, I sure should have kept the blown out motor in her, maybe getting a mule to pull me around in it. What was I thinking?

          Boudreaux


If they are not putting the original acf hall scott motor in the McKeen, then they are not restoring it, they are hot rodding it. May as well leave the motor out and just pull it around for tourista stuff with a small diesel switcher.

No they will not pull the cat diesel out and replace it with the original later. Just doesn't happen.

Lets see you had to pull the MG motor and trans. Purchase and Adapt the datsun to its MG chassis  with new fabricated motor and trans mounts. Cobble up some kind of exhaust pipe to exhaust pipe mish mash. Cobble up the positive ground electrical system. Get a new driveshaft cut to mate up to the rear end.  install a new shifter mechanism. plus more work.

You could have bought new rings and bearings and a gasket set, maybe a set of 10 thou over pistons to fit into the bored out cylinders. rebuilt the motor for less agro.

This would have been a heck of a lot cheaper and less work than butchering up a good MG midget.

madmike3434
For the record fitting a Datsun transmission into an MG would have been a doddle. Check any early OHV Datsun and notice the similarity to a BMC engine. Datsuns made Austin A40 under license after WW2, including the engine.
Someone who worked in Africa once told me that they used to put Datsun engines intp old Austin bodies. The Austin bodies were tougher than the Datsuns, but the Datsun engines were better. The gearboxes bolted straight on. No extras needed.

For the record. Early Toyotas have a passing resemblance to Hillmans - for the same reason post WW2 license building.

PS Like the Keene Railcar. That shape.

On the topic of 'original' engine. There is a railcar locally from early 20th century being restored. It had a petrol generator unit. Even if they found one they could not use it. Objective is to get it running.

Was not the motor on the Keen a direct drive, and reverse was by reversing the motor?

Last edited on Mon Dec 7th, 2009 05:19 pm by wahiba



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One day I might finish something................. find out if I do at my own paid for site (under construction)
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 Posted: Tue Dec 8th, 2009 03:18 pm
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Herb Kephart
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Wahiba wrote--

Was not the motor on the Keen a direct drive, and reverse was by reversing the motor?

That's correct, but since that was very common marine practice back then and for many years after, it probably wasn't the problem area in the McKeen drive. The clutch, which McKeen pattented and called the "octoroon" (sp?) seems to have been the downfall of the drive by reports written at the time. Single axle drive, with it's accompanying lack of traction didn't help either.

Finding (impossible?) or recreating (more likely) a original engine, drive, and front truck would probably have increased the cost of restoration by a factor of ten at least. Remember that there undoubtedly are no drawings, or existing pieces to reverse engineer from.

How much of this additional money would you have been willing to cough up Mike?

And even if this happened, the spark plugs, the wiring, the lubricants and countless other items would not be original.


Herb:old dude:



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 Posted: Tue Dec 8th, 2009 04:22 pm
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Huw Griffiths
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There can sometimes be other reasons why a different engine might need to be used in a refurb / restoration job.

The July 2009 edition of Railway Modeller contained a detailed article about efforts to revive a 1903 North Eastern Railway petrol-electric railbus.

It turns out that the group doing this work would not be allowed to use an original spec engine, even if they could find one:

http://www.electricautocar.co.uk/progress.html

This is probably just as well - as the engine  bay is combined with one of the driver's cabs, I'm sure the health and safety lot would have had plenty to say.

Whenever any new (or restored) traction is introduced onto British metals, it needs to undergo a strict licensing procedure. The people behind this rebuild want the railcar to do more than just sit in a museum - so they can't afford to mess around.

Regards,

Huw.

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