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Along the Octoraro & Eastern
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 Posted: Wed Jan 13th, 2010 12:06 pm
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gfadvance
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Herb,

when I first looked at this I thought now why didn't he just use plastic rod for this ........ however for once I reread the thread and noticed the "sharp bends at either end comment" yup think your way is the best  ..... will look good .

Sorry if I missed it if its there, but how do you get such consistency with your rivets ... both in spacing and depth of rivet ? 

Will be following your progress



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 Posted: Wed Jan 13th, 2010 02:20 pm
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Herb Kephart
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Gordon--

Rivets are formed with a pointed punch and a female die with a round cavity, both hardened. The punch has a spring that retracts it between hits. There is a brass "hammer" on a swinging arm to strike the punch, and a adjustable stop for how high the arm can be lifted, giving uniform blows.

A straight line is made by an adjustable fence that the rivet impressed sheet is kept up against, and spacing is done by pushing the last formed rivet against the edge of the female die.

I made the whole rig in a hurry 40 years ago--it is about as crude as it could be- but aside from making other female dies to get different size rivet heads and spacing- I'm still using it. Each time that I use it I start daydreaming about how to make it more automated, but when I'm finished using it, it gets put away with a promise of "next time" I'll take some pix, but I am really ashamed of the darn thing.


Herb  :old dude:



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 Posted: Wed Jan 13th, 2010 09:54 pm
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Herb Kephart
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Dug the rivet punch out and, as promised took some pictures. Certainly nothing to look at beauty wise. First an overall view, showing the brass hammer, the adjustable stop that ensures that the hammer is lifted the same height each time, the steel U shaped frame that keeps the punch and die in alignment, the spring that retracts the punch after the rivet is struck, and the movable table with a fence.



next two shots are of the removable bottom die in place





Finally, some extra tooling. The four pieces on right are various size dies. Note that the cavity sizes are different, but also the diameter around the cavity is a different size- this is what controls the spacing. There is one die that is triangular instead of round--giving the option of different spacings for that rivet diameter. Next in line is another punch, with a larger radius on the end, which was found not to be needed, as I have found that a relatively sharp point works on all the dies. Last item is-----AN ERASER!. It is a small diameter punch with a very, very slight radius on the end. When (NOT IF!) a mistake is made the errant rivet can be tapped down flat with this and a small hammer, and blended back into the flat sheet.



The operation is to locate the first rivet and lift the hammer and let it drop. The piece is then lifted very slightly and shifted to, say, the left and dropped back down onto the table, and then slid to the right until the just formed rivet hits against the diameter around the punch cavity, creating the space, and the operation is repeated.
It goes along at a fair pace, but is about as boring as modelmaking gets, and then suddenly you discover why there is an eraser.


Herb  :old dude:



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 Posted: Wed Jan 13th, 2010 10:34 pm
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W C Greene
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Herbie-your rivet machine which you refer to as "crude" or whatever is far, far more so-fisty-cated than the stone age stuff I use to make rivets. Maybe that's the reason I don't make rivets! Of course, my railroad is modern and doesn't use rivets to fasten parts together, the shop crew uses gas welding and likes to hide the welds so the parts appear seamless. That's my line, anyway.  I remember seeing the "prototype" for your machine in an old, old Model Railroader or maybe a Railroad Model Craftsman. Years ago, NWSL offered a riveter which looked like a small arbor press...if I had bought one back then, it would probably be gone by now anyway-thrown out or "lent" to somebody and never returned.

If (for some reason) I need some rivets, I have a small screwdriver with a pointed tip which can be "whacked" with a pair of pliers or whatever I have handy to produce a "bump" which will look fine when covered with rust and dirt. Ahhh, weathering hides all sins.

                Woodrow



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 Posted: Fri Jan 29th, 2010 10:13 pm
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Herb Kephart
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If you go back one page, you will see the "master" that I had hopes that I could make the multi-pipe cooling radiators for the IR loco. After it was all soldered, the end straps were cut off, with the pipe area still being over length. Without putting the bend in the outboard end of the master. a RTV mold was made and Cerro-Bend, which melts at 158*F was gravity poured in. The castings were then bent to the approximate radius. It was hoped that the castings would be acceptable being made this way, but if not, I was going to make a vulcanized mold, and spin cast them in a high tin alloy. RTV mold on right, next flat casting, finally bent castings. the alloy is silver colored, but the lighting makes it look like brass



The reality of this effort was that even though the castings came out poor, it was evident that they looked like corrugated roofing, and not at all like separate pipes.
Severe case of muttering and mumbling ensued. It was evident that there wasn't going to be any cheap and easy way out of the problem. Two brass blocks had been made up some time back to become the center reservoirs, and it seemed like the only way to make radiators that I was going to be happy with was to use separate wires for the pipes. Four other pieces of brass were rough shaped to the outside sizes of the eaves collector boxes, but were left over length for later fastening into an assembly jig. 234 Holes were spotted, and drilled #65 (.035") through all the pieces. This meant drilling through a total of approximately 39" of material. Before anyone has the audacity to ask if I broke any drills--#@#@ yes! What do I do when this happens? I curse! How do I get the broken off bits out of the hole? I curse even louder--works every time!



Next on the torture list is bending 158 pieces of .031" wire to two different radii.
I've made a jig for this, and have about half the pieces bent.



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 Posted: Sat Jan 30th, 2010 09:44 am
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Dave D
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LOL!

Herbie you are nothing short of a sadist!

The first attempt was a nice try...too bad.

I am positive all your efforts with the latest incarnation will be rewarded handsomely.



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 Posted: Wed Feb 3rd, 2010 09:58 pm
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Herb Kephart
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Well, progress is being made. Here are the brass pieces in a wood jig, and some pipes installed-one row this side--



Both rows other side-- 



This shows the height difference between rows--the brass strip between the rows is a temporary spacer.



Removed from jig, with all pipes installed. Ends of side collection tanks that were left long for clamping will be trimmed later. This shows that the open, see through look that I wanted came out OK



The top brass piece is really straight, but the angle and closeness of the camera distorted it

One down, and one to go---

GROG, WENCH, BRING ME GROG!!!



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 Posted: Thu Feb 4th, 2010 05:58 am
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teetrix
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Herb, 
it's always a pleasure to see your pics - brass work, old school, with precision and patience. The radiator looks great so far - and I think, all those laser-etching-resin-thingys couldn't do it better.

Michael

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 Posted: Thu Feb 4th, 2010 04:11 pm
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W C Greene
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Herbie-I KNEW you could do it. What you have done looks far, far mo' better than some casting would. You owe it to this model to make the best parts you can and you have done that wonderfully. The next time I need some radiator work done, I will call upon you. When will you bless us with more photos? My breath is baited...or something...

               Woodie



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 Posted: Thu Feb 4th, 2010 04:45 pm
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Herb Kephart
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Thanks Guys!

Michael--I wouldn't try to outdo laser cut stuff--it is just amazing. I just try to make models as sturdy as possible, consistent with looking reasonably good.

Woodie--Things should go rather quickly from now on (he said, crossing his fingers, as he lied through his teeth). Foot boards, couplers, and a few other do-dads, and of course the battery and radio gear--don't leave home without it!


Herbal  :old dude:



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