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grywht
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Gents,

For the sake of quick reference, please list the size and specifications of your R/C transmitters, ESCs, and batteries.

Please tell us what you have, what size it is, where you purchased it, and any other pertinent specifications (voltage, etc.)

Thanks!

Gary

Herb Kephart
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Gary--sorry to take so long posting this, but this is some of the R/C stuff that I have played with.


From left-- first is Planco 3 channel, 900MHz, 4.5 V max, 2 amp max has ESC but no fwd/rev  14.5 X 16.5 X 5 mm $60 for two right now. to get reverse the small tan DPDT relay 10 X 6 X 7 mm can be connected to one of the "actuator" connections. This RX does not use standard servo electrics. almost the minimum in antenna- two short pieces of hair fine wire abt. 3" long 

Middle --RVProject "Micro Fine-Tune Esc--abt.$30 Has fwd/rev. Meant for R/C car so max amps will be far higher than what we need. Max volts TBD but at least 7.3  27 MHz, 46 X 21 X 20 (reducible to 10 if you remote mount the crystal which by itself measures 19 X 16 X 5) Motor (top) servo steering connection (right side) and on-off switch (bottom) can be removed

Right- Losi micro T car RX (with ESC)  abt $45--Has fwd/rev. Again more amps than what we need, but exceed 8 volts at your own risk. 27 MHz.  41 X 35 X 14 mm (35 is reducible to 31 by remote mounting crystal-- same crystal as above



Hope that this gives you a small idea of what's out there- there is lots more -- (Gardenville? Woodie?---anybody???)


Herb:old dude:

W C Greene
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Herb-I am not familiar with the tiny board on the left, the center board looks like an IWAVER "knock off" version of a KYOSHO MINI-Z board (which I use), and there's the LOSI MICRO T board on the right. I have a couple of IWAVER boards, and a couple of LOSI boards just in case..... The KYOSHO board is capable of handling 11.1 volts while (as you know) the LOSI board is lower voltage. We have used 7.4 Li Poly's for the LOSI, however, my buddy Joe B uses 9 volt alkalines in his LOSI equipped locos. I am not sure of the power handling of the IWAVER board, it may be up to KYOSHO's specs. The tiny PLANCO board is about the size of the small boards that come in tiny r/c toy cars that retail for 5 bucks. There ain't nothin' wrong with the little boards, they have single speed, fwd and backward. If you have some little critter that uses a good gearhead motor and runs s l o w, you can get away with one. I have on in the Model T and it is run with a LOSI 7.4 volt 2 cell so the board can handle it.

Gary-when the weather is better & you can drop by, you will be able to actually see these boards and more importantly-see how well they run a locomotive. I know that when you get to run an r/c loco, the "dark side" will consume you too and you will begin to travel down the trail of wireless devotees. (how about them apples?)

                   Woodie

Toeffelholm
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2,4 Ghz Spektrum RC receiver stuff





Juergen

Toeffelholm
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A good overview of usual Lipo cell sizes you find here:

http://www.wes-technik.de/English/Battery.htm

Juergen

Toeffelholm
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The esc I use in brief:

http://www.cti-aichtal.de/catalog/index.php?%20cPath=21
(15mm x 12mm x 4mm)

http://www.wes-technik.de/English/controller.htm
  (17mm x 16mm x 4mm)


http://store.sol-expert-group.de/1zu87modellbau/FM-Bauteile/Fahrregler-fuer-FM:::48_54_56.html?language=en
  (12,8mm x 9mm x 2,5 mm)


http://modellbau-regler.de/xtcommerce/product_info.php?info=p24_AS12-15RW-BEC.html&XTCsid=qb3ei4uunln7jv380j1jp3iq45
(36mm x 30mm x 9 m)


Juergen

Last edited on Sat Feb 6th, 2010 05:33 pm by Toeffelholm

Herb Kephart
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Juergen-

Thanks for posting, especially the link.

I assume that all the units that you pictured are 2.4 GHz

Time for another chapter of the island adventure?


Herb

Toeffelholm
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Herb,

the esc's are frequency-independent. You can plug them to any RC receiver. Only the receiver has to fit to the transmitter frequency.

In case of 2,4Ghz the receiver must additionally be from the same manufacturer as the transmitter.

Juergen

Toeffelholm
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Hi,

found another tiny esc on the web.



LC302 from http://www.antenna-models.com/

But also the a bit larger LC301 is interesting, it provides directional light and an additional function as as I have understood.

Juergen

Toeffelholm
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Remembered this thread. Perhaps new RC enthusiasts could help to collect cmponent infos here.

I discovered a manufacturer that I didn't know before in another forum.

http://www.microinvent.com/mambo/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=21&Itemid=40

He makes very small receivers, some as well combined with an esc. For 2,4 Ghz as well as for 40 and 72 Mhz. (Also for 35Mhz but this is restricted to the fliying guild) For the 2.4Ghz receivers you have to use their own Transmitter system.



Getting information about the different things is a bit laborious, as you have to open the appropriate PDF.

Juergen

Last edited on Sun Jul 17th, 2011 01:59 pm by Toeffelholm

scratchbuilt
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What about this one:

http://www.micronradiocontrol.co.uk/rx_dt.html

For the well known Spectrum radio's, 2,4Ghz, fits under your thumb.

Albert

W C Greene
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Yes, they are indeed small but if you read the info, they are all made for aircraft. Model planes don't have reverse. You would then need a reversible ESC to operate a locomotive. Something to ponder. Also, a transmitter made for aircraft has no throttle reverse option unless you use the alerons/rudder/elevator controls.
Woodie

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Genious little things Albert, thank you for that link.

It's a pity that the esc function is without reverse, as Woodie already said.

Ok, it is not a big problem to use them despite this fact, but you need additional components in the loco. A Relay for reversing polarity and an elektronic RC-swich that triggers the relay.

Thats's shrinks the benefit of the small size again.


Juergen

Last edited on Tue Jul 19th, 2011 12:14 pm by Toeffelholm

scratchbuilt
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I'm afraid I don't get it. Why should any ordinary, for instance, Spectrum receiver work with cars (loco's) (with the right esc that is) and this little ones not. L: 

And, very disturbing, how do I know if the receiver of my choise will work for my loco?

Albert

Toeffelholm
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Albert, that does not depend on the receiver.

Regardless of what you want to control, a servo, a motor esc fw or fw/bw, a rc switch ... you can do with every receiver that works with your transmitter.

Also the ones in your link can be used for everything. But additionally to "normal" receivers they have a motor control unit "on board", and if you want to use this, it will only work single direction.
If you hook an external fw/bw esc to this, this receiver/esc combinition will simply work as "normal" receiver and you only have no benefit from the implemented esc.

So concerning their size, they are nevertheless very interesting.

Juergen

Last edited on Thu Jul 21st, 2011 06:24 pm by Toeffelholm

W C Greene
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Albert-it seems that these tiny receivers are made for aircraft only, no reverse. You would need a reversing electronic speed control to work in a locomotive. That and other devices would end up taking as much room in the loco as a single r/c car or boat board and more wiring to hook it all up. Also, a transmitter made for aircraft has no reverse capability on the throttle stick. An r/c car or boat transmitter would have a center off and work forward and reverse with the single stick (or trigger on a car transmitter).  Transmitters like the Stanton product have proper forward/reverse controls but it can only be used with their receivers. I do not know what is available outside the US, and equipment made "overseas" is not available in the US. What does all this mean? I got into r/c because of the simplicity-2 wires to the motor, 2 wires to the battery, 1 antenna wire, and it works. I use r/c car equipment and it is as simple as I described. The hardest part of installation is finding the space to install a battery and that can be done in most HO and certainly all On30 locomotives. I hope this explains some things.

                        Woodie

Toeffelholm
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Woodie,

the throttle stick on a transmitter originally used for planes is not for one direction use only. It just depends on the esc you are using.
I'm using plane transmitter and plane esc's.

Imagine you have a receiver with, e.g. as usual for plane-receiver, 5 or 6 connection possibilities (channels)


and you have a fw/bw esc normally used for a boat or car and a motor of course.

Then you plug the esc to the channel at the receiver that is called "THR" (throttle) and you put the "throttle" stick on your transmitter in ca. miiddle position.

Switching on the battery connections of transmitter and receiver now, the esc gets a signal from the transmitter and recognizes the given stick position as "zero position" . So now, moving the throttle stick forward the motor turns in one directiion und moving it backward it turns the other way around.

A model pilot using the same receiver and the same transmitter but a single direction esc in his plane, will put the throttel stick completely backwards before switching on plane and transmitter. The esc recognizes this a zero position and then motor velocity is spreaded over the whole way of the stick from backward to forward.


Ha, you may say, but the throttle stick is not spring-suspended an for that not automatically centered to the middle position. That's right and for that reason I do not use the throttle "channel" on the receiver.

The proportional channels are called throttle, aileron, rudder and elevation, as transmitter and receiver in the given example are normally used for planes. But these are only names, not more. The signal provided from each of this channels is basically the same and is also the same on transmitters and single receivers sold for use with cars or boats.

So, the proportional channels a interchangeable and I can plug my fw/bw esc to any channel at the receiver I want. I personally use the "elevation" channel, that is controlled by the forward/backward movement of the right stick on my transmitter and that is spring-suspended (As all stick-movements are spring suspended on a plane transmitter except "throttle").



So, - only in principle - I could plug four esc's in four locos on the four different proportional channel positions on four receivers, and with my both thumbs on the two sticks I could control four locos independently at the same time. :moose: :moose:

I could explain the electronical basics of this as well, but I don't want you to go and get out your baseball bat :):)

Though, you are far away from me, so perhaps I try :) L:

Juergen

Last edited on Thu Jul 21st, 2011 08:46 pm by Toeffelholm

W C Greene
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It's OK. But remember that I have antique equipment that were mostly given to me by r/c guys who "upgraded". I have become used to the "old ways" but have no problems with new stuff. I just want to see this hobby progress rather than stay in the last century as it seems to be. These days, I can't afford the latest gear so I have to "make do" with what I own. This thread has gone far beyond what I thought it would become and we have just begun the "experiment".
Woodie

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Woodie,

the things I tried to explain above, are valid for recent or older stuff as well.

Basically we two use the same old technic, as it has not changed in the RC car/boat/plane market over all the years. Only the way transmitter and receiver talk with each other is different, the common 40Mhz system in your case and 2,4Ghz in my case.

Each esc, sevo or other RC-circuit I can plug to my 2,4 Ghz receiver you can plug as well on a 27 Mhz receiver that fits to your transmitter and will act in the same way on the transmitter stick movement.

So if you would buy yourself a basic 2,4 Ghz system, you would get nothing new except for a securer signal transmitting. There are Guys that don't want to give away their old beloved transmitter and just change the frequency generating HF-part to 2,4Ghz, that can be bought as single part, and change the receivers in their vehicles. And then they have a 2,4 Ghz system.

The transmitter shown in the picture in the post above is a spektrum Dx6i and is a kind of computer-transmitter with display, that, in the same line, would be also available for 40Mhz. It just gives you a bunch of setting possibilities for the different channels. But, I have found that I do not really need this, and for that a basic Dx5e system (without display) would be absolutely sufficient.


Juergen

Last edited on Fri Jul 22nd, 2011 10:45 am by Toeffelholm

W C Greene
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Juergen-here in the US, the "old way" is 27 MHZ for model cars, 72 and 75 MHZ for aircrat, and who knows what for boats. The US has some "rules" on what can be used on the surace and in the air. Now with 2.4 GHZ, the "rules" are probably gone. That's probably a reason that r/c guys actually have given me their old equipment, nobody wants an old 27 MHZ, AM transmitter...it may fetch 5 bucks on ebay if one is very lucky. However, with the new "rules" enforced by the all seeing eye of the "government", it has become harder to find older sets of transmitter & receiver crystals, there is fear that these could be used by terrorists! Hopefully Li Po batteries will escape the "crackdown", there are fears that they can expolode in the "wrong hands"...and the craziness goes on and on. With these "attitudes", we could see model trains being reduced to being pulled along the floor with a string...oh, but then, someone would get hurt with the string.

As the old rock group the Doors would sing-"People are strange"...

                                           Woodie

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Juergen, in your July 22 comment, you mentioned the DX5e "would probably do".  After 3+ years of looking for an alternative to DCC, I purchased a DX5e with AR500 receiver and a non-Spektrum reversing ESC for a prototype locomotive I want to build.  I'm having problems with reversing the motor, which also only runs at one speed.  Local RC shops don't seem to be able to help, even the one that sold me the equipment.  Do you have an opinion as to why I'm having this problem?  Should I have purchased a Spektrum ESC?  I'll look forward to your comments, and anyone else's to get me out of this predicament. 

Dan  

Last edited on Sun Jun 30th, 2013 12:11 am by dan3192

Toeffelholm
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Dan,

normally any fw/bw esc should work.

Tell me the name of your esc or make a copy of the instructions that you can send me.

What batttery voltage do you use and what is the voltage range of your motor?

Juergen

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Juergen,

Many thanks for the quick response.  The ESC is by Associated Electrics, Inc., RC18T/MT, XPS Micro Electronic Speed Control, Voltage Input 4.8-8.5 Volts, Internal Resistance 0.0045 Ohms, 20A Continuous Load, 5V BEC Voltage, 1A BEC Current, 2.8KHz Frequency, w/Overload Protection + Reversing + Reverse/Brake Mode Switch.  Around US$50.00 cost.  Battery voltage can be 4.8, 6.0, 7.2, depending on battery type and quantity, and available space.  I'm using a 6 Volt brushed precision Swiss motor because of low current draw, but can also use a traditional Sagami-type or Buehler 12 Volt motor.  I cannot immediately send you a copy of the instructions as I do not have them on my hard drive.  If you can advise your e-mail address, I will try to contact the manufacturer to get it by e-mail, then forward it to you.  Thank you in advance for your time and your expertise.

Dan 

Dan- I sent your Email addy to Juergen in a PM--not a good idea to leave it out where spammers can grab it   Herb

 

Last edited on Sun Jun 30th, 2013 12:11 am by dan3192

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Dan, with your specifications I found the instructions manual on the net.
You can download it here
http://www.teamassociated.com/pdf/cars_and_trucks/shared/XPS_ESCmanual.pdf

Your esc has a programmable "Forward-Only Racing mode" that should explain your problem with reverse.

Please follow the "Setup Procedure" in the manual and try again. I hope your problem with the single speed will then be solved as well.

Juergen

dottney
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Here's another alternative for speed controls. Dimension Engineering has a number of ESC's and some very useful other electronics especially for monitoring LiPo batteries.
http://www.dimensionengineering.com/
Their speed controls have a high switching rate so you don't get that annoying whine out of the motor.

I have no connection with this company other than being a satisfied customer.
Dave

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Juergen, many thanks for relaying the information.  Incredible that their representative was not aware of this...still have not heard back from him.

I'll go through the procedure again, but replacement is not out of the question.

Regards, Dan

 

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You may want to look at the Spektrum AR6400 Rx/ESC/Servo combo for your needs. I'm considering this item (abt. 1"x1"x1/3") for my prototype.  Problem is I don't believe the ESC is a reversing one.  Now if only this was an added feature, I'd be all set.  I need to keep searching.

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Dan,

yes, you believe right, this one has no reverse, it's a plane esc.

What's with your esc now? Is it working?

How about a picture of your loco?


Juergen

W C Greene
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Currently, the cheapest and smallest receiver/esc with reverse is LOSI LOSB0803 which fits nicely into a Bachmann On30 Porter and most everything else. I am still talking ancient 27MHZ control, but it does work well and is available and needs no other devices to make it operate. The KYOSHO Mini-Z board is smaller, but the 27MHZ is discontinued and 2.4GHZ is the one. More money also and a proper transmitter is needed also. This info is probably of interest to those who want great control at a cheap price.
It seems that many have forgotten that airplanes have NO reverse!
Woodie

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Hi,

the Team Losi receiver/esc board is now also available for 2,4 Ghz, and can be controlled with a Spektrum 2,4Ghz transmitter

As Dan already owns a Spektrum Dx5, this would be an alternative.

Have only found a complete conversion kit.
http://www.losi.com/Products/Features.aspx?ProdId=LOSB9524

Juergen

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Greetings!

So much to learn.  For the 2.4 GHz fans, I have new information that may be of interest.  According to the gentleman I spoke with at Horizon Hobby, the best thing to do with my Spektrum DX5e is to purchase an AR6115e receiver and a Losi LOSB 9530 ESC.  This will provide a proper Tx/Rx/ESC link to obtain proportional speed control and reversibility.  The previously mentioned Losi Conversion kit probably includes components which use DSM technology vs the DSM2 technology in my DX5e Transmitter.  A problem for me would be not being able to use the several precision brushed motors I have as the above ESC is for brushless motors.  On the other hand, brushless motors, especially sensored ones, are more efficient and have better low speed control.  Decisions, decisions!  More to come!

Dan

       

 

 

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Dan,

what's up with the esc you already have? Have you tried it again following the manual, as I recommended to you ?

No need for a brushless esc, any brushed esc with reverse will work. And the choice of esc has absolutely nothing to do with the use of 2,4 Ghz.

No need to buy a another receiver, any Spektrum receiver will have a perfect connection to your Dx5e.



Juergen




Last edited on Tue Oct 18th, 2011 09:12 pm by Toeffelholm

dan3192
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Juergen,

I'm pleased, in fact delighted, to advise the successful operation of my 2.4GHz RCC (Radio Command Control) system using the components described previously.  I was able to achieve forward and reverse and with variable speed.  Operation was smooth, and better than expected.  Going from forward to reverse is seamless, with just pulling back slightly on the throttle stick. 

I'm off to the local hobby store to investigate smaller components, as I am a bit oversize on the Rx (receiver) and battery pack and need to fit the chassis into an AMD-103 shell.  Tonight is my train club meeting, where I will try a sustained run instead of just going up and back on my test track.  I will post some photos shortly.

Dan

 

 

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Juergen,

I should have been more specific in my last commentary and mentioned that the components I am using include my Spektrum Tx and Rx, and my original ESC and 9-pole Swiss motor.  I've added a flywheel to maximize smoothness.

Dan  

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Hi Dan,

Fine to hear that you had success with your esc.

The smallest receiver available for your Spektrum Transmitter is the AR 6300, that I have already shown in this thread somewhere above. It also has much smaller plugs than a standard receiver.

The smallest esc I have found for me up to now, is the one from Sol Expert, also shown in this thread. Only disadvantage, costs for postage from Germany are expensive.

Alternative option, the Team Losi 2,4 Ghz micro-T board, that combines esc and rx in a single board and that I have linked for you a few posts above.

Juergen

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I talked with Losi Technical Support on two occasions and an R/C specialist at a local hobby shop about the 2.4 GHz Losi Conversion kit.  They all tell me to expect incompatibilities using this kit with DSM technology and my Spektrum DX5e transmitter with DSM2 technology. I will be contacting Horizon Hobbies to try and get an official recommendation.

The prototype model I mentioned earlier was run at my train club meeting a few weeks ago.  It performed well on and off for over an hour without discharging the batteries.  I used four 1.5 volt alkalines, since I haven't settled on the Lithium battery type I will ultimately be using.  In summary, in my opinion, RCC (Radio Command Control) is a practical alternative for running HO trains with several advantages, not the least of which is prototypical looking track, to match the great looking models we now have and have come to appreciate.  My next step will be speed control refinement and looking at smaller components for a better fit under my locomotive shell.

I tried earlier to post a photo, but lost the accompanying text as well.  I tried to "drag and drop", but this didn't work.  Can anyone advise how to put up a photo?   

Dan      

  

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Photos: go to the homepage, click on MENU, then click on GALLERY. You should have your photos on the desktop or somewhere else that can be accessed in your computer, Click on UPLOAD PHOTOS. Then click on BROWSE and select the photo(s) you want, then click UPLOAD at the bottom of the screen. When it's done, your photo(s) will appear in your gallery. When you post a message, click on the big G (upper right icon) and select your photo, click on it and it will appear in the post. Easier than I can explain. Good luck.
Woodie

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Woodie, re the photos, thanks, I'll try to post one this evening.

Dan

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Dan,

DSM technology is downwards compatible. Your DSM2 Transmitter can handle the DSM as well as the DSM2 protocol.
I myself use the old Spektrum DSM receiver together with my DSM2 Dx6i and DX5e.

Juergen

Last edited on Mon Nov 14th, 2011 09:35 pm by Toeffelholm

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Well, here goes!

You are looking at four 1.5 volt alkalines in series, a Spektrum AR500 Rx, an Associated Electronics reversing ESC, a 9-pole brushed motor w/A-Line flywheel, all mounted on a Hobbytown frame with gear tower and power trucks.  The universal shafts are custom made.  Extensive testing and optimization is next.




Future power will be via paralled LiFePO4 rechargeable batteries (for safety). This was only to prove to myself that RC for HO is feasible.  Whatever components are used to reach the common objective, it would seem now is the time for me to put it all together and lay down some track MY WAY!    

Thank you all for your helpful comments.

Dan

 

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Juergen,

That's very good news!  I'm planning to call Horizon in a day or two for their comments.  I'll let you know what they have to say. 

With the present arrangement, I cannot get crawl speeds going forward or reverse.  Do you have any thoughts on this?  I do notice the Rx is flashing while operating.  I think there is something about re-binding that might resolve this problem, but whatever combinations I try, I still end up with the Rx flashing.

Dan

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Good luck with getting info from Horizon, it is a full service hobby distributor not a manufacturer. If Losi couldn't answer your questions, you may have to contact someone in a radio control auto site. Horizon does not employ technicians, just salesmen and box packers. Let us know what you learn.
Woodie

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Hello Dan,

could you describe a bit more in detail what happens when you push the stick slowly from zero position to full extend?

Juergen

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Hi Woodie,

I've got too much going on today to get back to Horizon.  I live in North Central CT and will be attending an Amherst Railway Society meeting this evening, so hopefully tomorrow. 

I will actually be calling Spektrum.  I have a lot of questions about radio control.  Spektrum now offers telemetry equipment which feeds back aircraft battery voltage, speed, temperature and other data.  I believe this technology can be "rearranged" to feed back engine speed in scale mph, provide battery status so you know when you are due for a recharge, and also if your motor or battery is getting too hot.

So I'll be a day or two before I get back.

Dan 

  

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Hello Juergen,

With the left stick in the center position, the ESC light is red/green.  Moving the stick forward slightly (1-2 notches) causes the motor to run at about half speed. The ESC light is bright green.  Moving the stick forward increases the motor speed to its maximum at about 1/2 forward, or about 45degrees from vertical.  The same happens in reverse speed and the ESC light is bright red.  Moving the stick full forward or backward does little or nothing to motor speed.  All the while, the Rx is in flashing amber light mode.

 

Dan    

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Dan, just to get sure,
beside the setting for switching off the "forward only racing mode" that seem to work now,
have you also programmed your esc by following the steps 1-6 of the setup procedure?

Juergen

Last edited on Wed Nov 16th, 2011 07:39 am by Toeffelholm

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Man, am I glad that I use old fashioned r/c car boards which need no programming, etc. After reading these posts, I am thankful for my fine operating and simple equipment. Carry on.
Woodie

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Well, Woodie, "programming" is a to big word for this.
You just have to "tell" the esc what is zero position, what is full forward and what is full backward and thats by just pushing a single button at the esc several times when the stick is in the appropriate position.

No problem, also for "keep away with this electronic rubbish" guys :moose::moose:

Juergen

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Juergen, YES to your question. I tried rebinding, resetting the ESC, switching reverse mode off then back on again, etc.  At one point, the amber Rx light was constant, but the ESC was inactive (no lights or speed control).  I'm back to where I was.  There's probably an easy fix, but my lack of experience with RC is most likely the problem in getting this set up correctly.  I'm not too concerned.  It's all part of the learning game.  I'll see some RC people tomorrow.

Dan      

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Dan-the great thing about r/c is that you can wait till'another day...remember that you won't be cleaning track,wheels, or looking for bad wiring. My layout has been covered up for two weeks (bad weather)but I know that when I want, I can go outside, uncover it, and be running. When you are freed from the "normal" routine, model railroading becomes even more fun! Good luck..
Woodie

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Ok Dan,

then, to my opinion, there are two possibilities left.

You can check if there is a difference by using a normal, non coreless motor.
A coreless motor starts in a very small voltage and current range, that maybe outside the control possibilities of your esc.

Second I found on the net, that there are basical problems reported using this esc especially together with spektrum but also with other systems, although not in the way you described.

But both would mean, that you may better choose another esc.

Juergen

Last edited on Thu Nov 17th, 2011 07:32 pm by Toeffelholm

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Woodie, thanks for the encouragement.  It's mostly my inexperience with RC in general that keeps me going at a snail's pace.  I'm also the type that has to know all the details before I make a move.  Thanks to Free Rails, I can sit at my computer and soak up ideas and experience and make some decisions.  

My prototype will be modified.  A smaller battery pack and possibly rearranging some parts will allow me to finally mount the shell on the chassis.  I'll post another photo as soon as I have something decent to look at.  Thanks for your follow-up.

Dan

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Toeffelholm wrote



But both would mean, that you may better choose another esc.

Juergen

Before doing that, try putting a 50-60 ohm resistor across the motor brushes to "load" the ESC a little more and see if it makes the control better. The coreless motors draw very little current, as Juergen said, this will increase the amount of motor current slightly --about 2 tenths  of an amp at twelve volts-- and might be just enough th "trick" the ESC.

One other thing-- is there a capacitor across the brushes of the motor now? (usually a little brown pill like thing)  If so it may cause the described symptoms. Speed is controlled by a series of off-on spikes of voltage. Short spikes==low speed. A capacitor will in effect "fill in" between the spikes and cause an increased speed of the motor.

Herb 



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Juergen,

Thanks for your comments.  You've have me thinking about something I should have thought of before.  I can certainly use different motors and observe the results.  This I will do, but your remark about coreless motors made me realize a few things. 

First, I am operating my engine on test rollers, or on a test track, which means almost no load for the motor.  Isn't no load speed always higher than when under load? 

Second, given the high efficiency of the motor, and the rotor being supported by ball bearings (low turning friction), it sounds reasonable the motor would run at high speeds even with a low starting voltage.  Importantly, there is a difference in motor torque between the lower and higher speeds, but I do feel the speed range could still be improved.

You may be right about using a different ESC based on what you found, plus my own experience.  I'll be asking a few more experts about this before making a switch.  There's still a good chance I'm not setting it up properly, so maybe they can be more successful than me.  It will not be a big deal swapping out the old ESC for a new one, especially a smaller one.  

Regarding the new Losi conversion kit, I spoke with the R/C manager at a local hobby shop and he advised me not to use an air transmitter with a ground ESC because they are set up differently.  I also called the Spektrum technical support hotline and they likewise recommended not to pair these up.  They stated that ground and air receivers have different signal protocols and DSM2 and DSMX transmitters are designed to be used with aircraft.

Spektrum also mentioned they are coming out with a new DX7 Tx around December.  The DX7 and current DX8 can be used with their new telemetry system.  I read there is a free app for smart phones, ipads and the like, which allows receiving aircraft telemetry signals.  This means you can use your DX5 or DX6 and still monitor performance "on the fly". 

This has relevant implications in that motor speed can be converted to scale mph, and just like for aircraft, monitoring battery (low) voltage lets you know when its time to bring your engine in for a charge.  Telemetry also lets you know if motor or battery are getting too warm, as might be the case with a long consist or uphill climb.     

In any case, a slight rebuild of my AMD-103 lies ahead, and we'll hopefully soon have the shell installed as well.

Dan  

 

 

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Juergen,

I should have said "...he advised me not to use an air transmitter with a ground receiver."  Sorry, getting late, must be getting tired.

Dan

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Hello,

Back again, but still having problems.  In a nutshell, my AMD-103 still runs great, but in a narrow speed range.  I took some motor readings before yanking out the 6 volt alkalines, based on a conversation with an RC shop owner in upstate NY. 

With a 6.21 supply voltage, results were as follows for min. throttle & max. throttle:

4.72 volts & 5.73 volts

He had suggested I try a higher voltage since my Spektrum Rx is rated at 9.6 volts.  Substituting a 9 volt alkaline with a 9.28 supply voltage gave the following results:

7.32 volts & 8.6 volts.

It appears the speed range only shifts upward for an increased supply voltage.  Herb, there are no capacitors on the motor I'm using and adding a resistor across the motor leads had no noticeable effect. 

Also made mention was that my DX5e has a limited "resolution" when compared with upper end Tx's like the DX8, which can also program desired throttle ranges and configurations.  Given the cost and complexity, this will not happen at this time.  I will continue the search for answers for this project, while completing construction of my second prototype, which takes a slightly different approach.

Thank you all again for your advice and support.  We'll get back soon.

Dan        

 

 

 

 

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Dan-I know that you are probably getting a bit discouraged by now. All I might put forth is to spend even more money (about $80 US) for a complete LOSI MICRO T car-transmitter, car, battery...and install that board in your loco. This sounds like throwing good money after bad, but I can ASSURE you that the Losi board, transmitter, and appropriate battery WILL OPERATE your locomotive in a satisfying manner. It seems that you are going down the "garden path" buying this neat thing and that high tech device and not getting anything accomplished. What works for some doesn't work for others, but what I propose does work as advertised. This is only my opinion, but I have been running r/c locos for around 10 years now with this "old fashioned" stuff and wouldn't change a thing. Good luck...
Woodie

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Woodie, thanks for the encouragement.  I can use some at this point.  I trusted the guy that sold me the equipment, but his support is just not there.  I know I asked him if I can get the full speed range with my motor.

It's good to know the Losi stuff works.  I may just go that way very soon.  I started out with some definite goals in mind, i.e., full speed range and reversibility, on-board control of track switching, basic engine sounds, the ability to haul six or eight passenger cars.  Visions of LED-driven fiber optic lighting, an on-board camera and contactless charging were also dancing around in my head as I anticipated overcoming each challenge and forging ahead with the next nifty feature.

The speed range problem is a disappointment, but also a reality check.  I've gotten too close to the forest to see the trees.  But, down deep, I knew all the technology I needed was already here.   What I was trying to do is re-format and re-arrange all this neat hardware and software into one unique engine and finally satisfy my desire for a layout free of any and all track design limitations.  Easier said than done.

Although, If I was CEO of Horizon (Athearn, Roundhouse, Spektrum, Losi, E-Flite, etc.), I'd push for a universal RCC board with an open architecture using a lot of the ideas now being developed and get this whole radio control thing going.  But I'm not, and I will have to "go with the flow". 

We've had a death in the family and I'll be in Texas in a few weeks to see my new granddaughter.  So I'll be taking time off and taking a step back before moving ahead again.  My wishes to all for a Happy Holiday Season.

Dan

 

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Dan-if you will be anywhere close to Dallas, let me invite you to drop by and visit. Take care and have a Merry Christmas.
Woodie

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That's nice of you to suggest that.  We fly into Dallas-Ft.Worth 12/28 and return home on 1/3.  We'll be staying in N. Richland Hills.  How can we e-mail each other?

Dan

 

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Dan,

If it is not due to the coreless motor, your esc ist simply not working with Spektrum as it has a special electronical requirement, that Spektrum is not serving.

This fact is reported several times on the net, as I already wrote before.
Did you follow this hint?
Just look for the combinition of Spektrum and the name of your receiver.

Spektrum 2,4 Ghz works perfect and absolutely reliable in six locos now I have equipped, with wonderful slow crawling abilities, with four different esc's up to now.

So better look for another esc.

Juergen

Last edited on Mon Dec 5th, 2011 04:08 pm by Toeffelholm

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I've searched, and possibly found, the ideal receiver-electronic speed control for my HO engines.  It's compatible with my Spektrum DX5e transmitter and uses the new 2.4 GHz frequency/DSM2 spread spectrum technology.

It has an 800 ma capacity, which is more than adequate for the motors I'm using.  It is a 5-channel unit and will handle my lighting needs and hopefully the on-board radio controlled track switching feature I've been thinking about.  It measures about 0.5" x 0.5" and will free up a lot of space for additional batteries.

I'll be trying it out and will post some results ASAP.

BTW, the new dry solid polymer electrolyte batteries, which use thin film technology, will be hitting the market soon. They have a higher energy density than LiPo's.

Things are looking up!

Dan

P.S. My thanks to Juergen, Woodie, Herb, Bill and all the others for your help and inspiration. 

  




  

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Dan-very cool news. Who makes these boards? Also, keep us posted on the new batteries, while I am satisfied with what I have, there's lots of room for new ideas. Thanks.

Woodie

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I know these boards Woodie, they are from
http://www.micronradiocontrol.co.uk/rx_dt.html

And what is the problem ? They are for planes and thus not for bidirectional control.

But as written on the website:

"Receivers with bidirectional ESC for car, boat and train are coming soon. "

Dan, you should ask these micron guys what "soon" means.

Juergen

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Woodie,

I've been in contact with several people over the last 2-3 months and I'm still exploring ways to apply this rx for train control.  I don't want to generate a lot of excitement over something that I don't even own yet.    

I don't have "deep pockets", but I'm willing to take a chance this item will work for me.  I say for me because I'm wanting to do more than run forwards and backwards on my track.  I'd like to come up with a design that will pull a long string of cars. 

I'm looking at lighting and sound as well.  The receiver may be the heart of the system, but its effectiveness is influenced by the batteries and motors that are used, so the challenge for me has been balancing all this out.   

BTW, if you want more information on the batteries I mentioned, google A123 Systems and Voltaflex.  A123 is in financial trouble, and Voltaflex will be a supplier to battery manufacturers.  Both companies are licensed to use the technology developed at MIT.  

Dan           

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Dan-I will check out the new batteries, but since I don't even have pockets much less deep ones, I will probably keep what I have. If I could figure out how to install solar collectors that look like cab roofs, I wouldn't need batteries any more...that would be a hoot!

I did note in reading the product info for the receiver/esc that there will be reverseable boards for r/c cars, boats, & TRAINS...yes, they mentioned TRAINS! Somebody is listening it seems.



Woodie

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Woodie - I guess we can thank the internet for spreading the word.

Regarding the batteries, I'm confident these Lithium Iron Phosphate cells (LiFePO4, or LiFe for short) will be showing up more and more. It's a safer chemistry and the type being worked on by these companies.

But I'm not holding my breathe on these. I think I'll go ahead for now with pre-charged Eneloop NiMH batteries. They're "off the shelf", good quality and take a thousand recharges.  Unlike ordinary rechargeables (Duracell, etc.), they hold their charge much longer.

AAA size Eneloops are rated at 1.2 volts and 800 mah. I'm using four to get 4.8 volts. With a small board, I can fit in eight and get 1,600 mah. If my math is correct, this means up to 8 hours running time since my motor is drawing 150-200 mah under load. If I can squeeze in four AA Eneloops, I'll have about 2,000 mah! Tenergy also makes an AA type with 2,200 mah capacity and 1.25 volts.

Dan      

      

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I have emailed to the micron guys about the bidirectional esc myself. A combined board of this size would be really interesting also for me.

Whereby one important criteria is the pwm frequency of the esc. If it is a range around 1 kHz the wine will drive you crazy. Also 3kHz can be still annoying.

The best esc I use, has a frequency of 16 kHz, so no wine at all, but to big for my Gn15 stuff.
The esc from Sol-Expert I use, the kyosho boards Woodie uses and probably also the Team-Losi boards have a frequency around 50Hz. So what you hear is only a slight hum.

@Dan, depending on microns answer, it may be worth to consider the thumbnail big sol-expert esc's (posted somewhere in the beginning of the thread) that are available in 5V and 12V range. Postage from Germany its not cheap but it can be a simple way to push your project ahead.

Light and Sound I like to have for my locos as well. Remote controlled light is rather easy, plugging just an RC-switch or an a modified Servo electronic to a free channel.

Sound is an own field where I didn't find a solution for me up to know. OK, on board sound its not difficult if you take a sound module that is for analog use as well, but in my small Gn15 locos there is no place for that, beside RX, esc, and battery.

No, what I'm dreaming of is layout sound. Loco sound coming from a subwoofer and satellite boxes, traveling along the layout with the position of the track.

This is already realized for DCC control and analog track power, but for RC control I have to develop something on my own I think. Detecting the loco position, processing the signal and using it for fading in and out of the satellite speaker is the main part I'm researching on at the moment.


Juergen

Last edited on Mon Apr 23rd, 2012 01:20 pm by Toeffelholm

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Woodie, take a look at the Eneloop Handbook link below.  Notice the flat discharge curve.  As mentioned, LiFe batteries are in the near future, but I'd like to run my trains now, so I'll use these and move on to the more important subject of radio control.  BTW, I bought the Eneloops at my local COSTCO store.

http://www.eneloop.info/fileadmin/EDITORS/ENELOOP/PICTURES/OTHER_PICTURES/handbook.pdf 

Juergen, I have to respond to your recent post since audio is my other hobby and I have been trying to add sound to RC just as you are doing.  I've searchd for, but not yet found, the sub-woofer you mentioned.  Sound in HO in nice, but the missing low end of the sound spectrum leaves a lot to be desired.

Years ago, I decided to go with Broadway Limited locomotives with QSI sound.  I'm adding a high bass speaker I picked up at a train show to my 4-6-4 Hudson locomotive.  I think it will help a little.  The below link to an active eBay auction shows the speaker I have.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/150584751059?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Anyone dabbling with locomotive sound might find the following link helpful.  There's also a ton of information and articles on the QSI website itself.

http://qsisolutions.com/pdf/loco_acoustics_design.pdf

Getting back to Juergen's project, he is braver than I am in trying to install speaker boxes on a layout sequenced to work with a moving train.  Too much like track wiring for me, but I do wish him success and look forward to hearing about his progress.

Re sound, I'm headed in a few directions.  Tam Valley uses your existing DCC sound system.  NWSL/Stanton is working with Tsunami on a proprietary unit.  Both do not appear compatible with my RC, so I'm looking at analog systems triggered possibly by servos or unused channels on my Tx.

Physically, and just to get things going, I'll use my Hobbytown Multi-Drive set-up where the B unit has the motor and also drives the A unit via a drive shaft between the trucks.  This opens up all the space in the A unit for lighting and speakers.

There are multiple problems in getting those low frequencies.  The first, and foremost, is the speaker itself.  The ideal speaker would be around 1.25" in diameter with very high compliance, or cone travel.  Unfortunately, none exist that I know of, but necessity is the mother of invention, and given the market for smart phones, tablets, laptops and DVD players, I'm optimistic there are manufacturers out there already working on this.  The computer I'm sitting in front of has Philips speakers with 2"x3" bass speakers, so we can't be too far away.            

The second problem is speaker enclosure, or design.  The bass reflex approach is efficient, but the proper port design for the back wave is very tricky.  A folded horn design is very efficient, but takes up too much room.  I think the acoustic suspension design gives the best sound, but it is least efficient.  This is where the back waves are contained and don't reinforce the front waves.  I'll use this design anyway since I will only use the horn or steam whistle a small percentage of the time, and therefore not use excessive battery power. 

I plan on two speakers in a "A" frame configuration, discharging the sound downwards.  It's possible to put the speakers in the powered B unit by running the drive shaft through the speaker enclosure to the other power truck.  We'll see.        

Other considerations include hooking up two speakers in parallel (instead of in series); damping factor, which controls speaker cone over-travel (built into the amplifier - no control over that); speaker phasing (both speaker cones moving in the same direction).     

With all this going on, no wonder I'm still not running trains... 

Dan

"In life, it's not the destination that counts, it's the journey"  -unknown

 

     

 

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Dan-the batteries should work for you. For me, I prefer the 3.7 volt/cell Li-Po's since they are readily available, can be charged more times than I have left on this planet, and judging from the sizes, the Li-Pos take up less space. Of course, I don't care for sound effects or any of the other extras that model railroaders demand these days. Good info to have however.

Woodie

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Woodie - If it works for you, that's all that counts.  Just read an interesting Eneloop claim...using 286,807 of their batteries equals 1,086,138,109 "use & toss" batteries!

Mr. Greene, we're going green!

Dan

"Why is there never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over?"  - Unknown

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Gentlemen (Ladies too, if you're reading this):

I posted the following comment on the mrhmag.com forum...



Open Architecture - One More Time!
Sat, 2012-05-05 21:10 — dan3192

I'd like to address some recent comments, which I feel are misleading. 

The RC experts advise me that running two or three engines together is accomplished by binding the receivers in the two or three engines to the same transmitter. This requires using the same type engines and electronics, i.e., an F7A + two F7B's, an E8A + E8B, three GP9's, etc, etc.  I have absolutely no problem running this way. BTW, telemetry is just being introduced, for real-time monitoring of engine performance.  

The fact that the Railpro system deals with this scenario is a real plus for DCC fans, and I would not hesitate to recommend their cab control to anyone looking to upgrade their system. The Tam Valley and NWSL/Stanton cab control systems are also worthy enhancements for DCC operation. Please understand, my position on radio control is based on not having invested in DCC, which gives me the freedom to choose what I think is best for me. 

But isn't DCC, in of itself, a system with a closed architecture, and much like the 800 pound gorilla mentioned previously? Is it possible to concede that operating without power or signals in your track has advantages? Or that using only one stick to move your engine forwards or backwards and operate switches also has some merits? A study I made about a year ago showed that those that operate with a radio transmitter watch their trains almost 100% of the time compared to those using conventional DC or DCC controls.  

I believe radio control for model trains is in its infancy, and we are presently only seeing the tip of the iceberg. Trust me when I say the radio control guys, who race cars and fly airplanes, are 10-15 years ahead of us model railroaders in controlling our models. With thousands of suppliers and sub-suppliers, here and around the world, radio control is a highly universal system, with much compatibility, using technology we are yet to borrow to run our trains.

...and got the following response...


Closed? system...
Sat, 2012-05-05 23:25 — Benny

But isn't DCC, in of itself, a system with a closed architecture, and much like the 800 pound gorilla mentioned previously?
Well, lets see...if i want to build a decoder, all I need to do is design it following the communication protocol already in effect and build it. My decoder will work on a Lenz system, a Digitrax system, an MRC system, and a Soundtrax system.  Hmm.  I think maybe you and I have a different Idea what constitutes "closed" system.

Now there is a company who has tried to make the DCC world Convert to it's way - DCS.  And now you see the result: MTH now produces products that are more compliant with DCC than they ever were before.  I guess you could say MTH has learned it's lesson, and now listens tot he market, rather than trying to force the market into their cube.

The RC experts advise me that running two or three engines together is accomplished by binding the receivers in the two or three engines to the same transmitter. This requires using the same type engines and electronics, i.e., an F7A + two F7B's, an E8A + E8B, three GP9's, etc, etc.
And in Model Railroading, this way of thinking is unacceptable.  We run an F7, an E8, and a GP9 all in the same train.  The first unit is made by Athearn, the second unit is made by Walthers, and the third unit, Atlas.  The electronics in the first are Digitrax, the second, Tsunami, and the latter, an old MRC relic.  And yet somehow they all run together, and well, I might add, compared to anything from our past.  This is how the model railroad community thinks!!

Any Serious newcomer to the market will need to recognize this given in the model railroad community: to be readily accepted, their products need to work well with what is already the status quo.  Their decoders will need to be able to work with the old protocol - and their system will need to be able to communicate with the old decoders.  Due to the nature of DCC, this is not difficult if this compatibility it taken into account from step one - it's a dirt simple protocol.

I fully believe Railpro has the potential to become a very real player in the model railroad market, but they are going to have to acknowledge and accept the place present DCC already has here, and work to it's strengths.  Instead of selling systems, they will need to become comfortable with selling Components.  The LM-1 has great speed matching ability; if it was done perfectly, then the LM-1 equipped locomotive would have no issues slaving itself to the standard DCC units in the consist.  Such a product would then be a no brainer; all new units on the layout would be getting LM-1s!!  Otherwise, the LM-1 is just like a DCS decoder.

We'll see where things go...

...Comments? ...Anyone?

 

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Comments? No track wiring. No wheel/track cleaning. No fiddly contacts on wheels.

I read the technical and philosophical verbage tossed forth by others, few of whom have actually built anything that approaches true wireless operation, and realize that nothing will change. DCC interface, DCC compatable, DCC acceptable, on and on. Some fellows have embraced the idea, most will still whack the plywood table when the train stops. To each his/her own. It is nice to see discussions on the use of Radio Control with onboard batteries but I fear that it will remain just that-discussions. Of course, I am an old fashioned fogie who doesn't know $%^& about consisting, speed matching, cv's, and programming issues. I will have to be content with running my trains as I have for years, free from techno-speak...just turn the equipment on and become the engineer rather than a fellow who pushes the right buttons.

The above is my opinion...for what it is worth.

Woodie

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Comments?---OK

As far as I am concerned, I am willing to put up with the unfixable (by me) electronics that radio control with onboard batteries entail, to get rid of the bane of model trains, dirty track.

Other than that, and throw away calculators, there is too much whiz-bang electronics in my life already--and I will not intentionally add any more than I have to- I would be very happy if a lot of it went away. TV? don't watch it. 'puter? each time something happens to the damn thing, I threaten to not replace it. Vehicle electronics? The worst of the bunch--once I get the "61 Willys station wagon done the %~##}@* Honda is going to find a new owner.

Call me a Luddite--I don't care.

Two things, more to the point of your post--

DCC still needs wheel/rail contact

In O scale, I have run (on straight DC) unbelievable lash ups of different performing power units with no problems AT ALL.  Suspect that G scale is the same. No fiddling to get all the units to run the same speed, start at the same voltage, yada, yada.

Not for me.

Herb 

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Comment....ok

In the 80's I ran Mamod live steam engines with RC throttles driving servos for speed control and direction......it was fantastic and a whole lot of fun "running" the engine and looking our for what I was doing track/turnout wise.
In the 90's I went back to HO and ran DCC diesels and no sound.....fantastic and a whole lot of fun running the engine etc......but cleaning track was a constant bummer.
Since 2000 I've been running DCC with sound in On30.....fantastic....etc....but you gotta the track clean or the darn sound system cuts out or recycles and that "kills" the fun......then I started using the newer decoders with capacitors and clean track was less of a problem....but sound is still an issue for now.
Now people start "slinging" RC and batteries into On30 (and smaller) engines and you can now "paint" the track and run your engine...well "like and engineer would". This is really FANTASTIC and has me pretty jazzed.
So, I'm ready to start playing with an RC/battery loco or two an have a ton of fun and I'll wager the techie guys will figure out how to did it easier and easier each year. Guys who have a ton of engines, (I don't as I model narrow gauge) and use DCC will probably stay put because of the investment...just like happened when DCC began and a lot of guys had too many engines to put in decoders...that's what they said at the time anyway....I'll wager the vast majority of them are now DCC users.
RC/battery is the new thing...it has tremendous possibilities for guys like me in narrow gauge....track can look like "narrow gauge" track full of ups and downs and wiggles....in and out of shallow streams like they were doing in WV logging lines......I'm sold.
tom sullivan

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tomsullivan wrote:  ...it has tremendous possibilities for guys like me in narrow gauge....track can look like "narrow gauge" track full of ups and downs and wiggles....in and out of shallow streams like they were doing in WV logging lines...

Interesting you mention running through streams. There was a time...way back when...that I was asking the same question using conventional DC. How could we simulate that sight? Cutting grooves through the fake water came to mind but never seemed particularly correct; still needed contact with the rails.

Even RC seems to raise the same concern. I have no plans to use real water on a section of the railroad. Granted, it would definitely work and be cool to see in action. Water just doesn't miniaterize very well and would still have the full-size properties.

Food for thought, though perhaps more than a tiny bit off-topic.

Back to the regularly scheduled program...

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James-OFF TOPIC HERE-I thought about a real water crossing using an r/c loco and yes, it could be done. HOWEVER, real water gets real nasty quickly and for some reason, casting resin, etc. looks more realistic than the real stuff. Go figure. Now, back to R/C COMPONENT SIZES...

Woodrow-glad that my track isn't wiggly and funky, I just don't know how that would ever work.

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Without the "bow wave" from the wheels pushing the water aside, it would look as real as a 3 dollar bill--just like waves in larger bodies of water do, when modeled.


Herb 


topic---what topic?

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Juergen,

You mentioned sound systems and coming up with something for your layout. The following link may be of interest. If not, you might enjoy the artwork.

Dan

http://www.fantasonics.com/store/railroadies/roadies1.html

 

 

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That's a great link and the company could probably supply sound effects for an r/c layout. A device that wouldn't be dependent upon the loco's batteries would be nice. While I am not interested in the sounds, it would be a "game changer" for those who sit on the fence about r/c and want the sound without draining the battery.

Woodie

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Juergen,

Here is another website covering layout sound systems which may be of interest to you. I have inquired about radio control of on-board sound and am waiting to hear from them.

Dan

http://www.pricom.com/index.shtml

 

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Hi Woodie,

Check out the Pricom website mentioned in my 2nd message to Juergen. They apparently supply a lot of items to Fantasonics.  But I think they are DCC oriented. 

You're right about battery drain from on-board sound units, but the way I look at it, unless you are constantly blowing your whistle or sounding your horn, the drain should be minimal.  Also, batteries are getting more and more powerful, so I think it's feasible to have on-board sound.  If you like the constant drone of a diesel, or the chuff of a steam locomotive, this will definitely take battery power.

BTW, I just received the Rx/ESC chip I posted photos of a while back. It is incredibly small, but could just be the game changer many of us are looking for. I've got lots of work to do before I see any results, but now, with all the extra room, I can double up on the number of batteries and greatly extend my running time*.

* 8-Eneloop AAA's in series-parallel = 4.8v, 1,800mah capacity. With a custom frame, 8-Eneloop AA's = 4,000mah!  

  Hmmm, doubling my battery power means I can seriously think about adding sound!  We'll see...

Dan

  

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Dan,
thank's for the link. I already know Fantasonics' Dream Player, but not this Railroadies. Perhaps a good address to place the one or other question.

The Dream Player is made for background sounds and it's already on my wish list. Examples for their available sounds can be found here:
http://www.fantasonics.com/store/cd.html

But it is not made for train sound. You can't give the speed/voltage information of the loco to this device. If you only need bell, horn or pipe it may work.

The Rx/esc chip that you bought is that one from Micron? Do they sell such a circuit with bidirectional motor control now? I asked for that, but never got an answer from Micron.

Juergen

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Juergen,

If you go to the 1st & 2nd links, you may find sound systems of interest to you (CADMK2, Misty MK2). I am in contact with them and have inquired about their new radio controlled Trigger Switch (GALMK1) shown in the 3rd link.

1.  http://www.mrrails.com/html/adsmk2.html

2.  http://www.mrrails.com/html/misty.html

3.  http://www.mrrails.com/html/galmk1.html

This is getting close to what I want, i.e., diesel or steam sound synchronized with engine speed with possible options for horn, whistle or bell sounds, all without DCC.  I'm thinking about an electro-mechanical approach, which would include using servos.  This may change as I get better with RC.  I can live without brake squeal, Doppler effects or the dozen or so other sound effects currently available using sound decoders. 

But I have to confess owning Broadway Limited and Atlas DC/DCC QSI sound equipped locomotives.  However, I operate on DC and use the Quantum Engineer controller to get all the sounds available to DCC operators. 

DCC is not in my future planning.  RCC* is.

* Radio Command Control

Dan

  

 

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Juergen,

I got the chip from one of Micron's suppliers.  It is a special chip inspired as a result of several months of communicating with the supplier regarding what I wanted for train control and on-board control of auxiliaries such as switches, lighting and sound.

The receiver operates on the 2.4 GHz frequency, is compatible with 22ms DSM2 Air and 16.5ms DSM2 surface modulation, takes 3-6v, has reversing brushed ESC's, and will drive motors, actuators, servos, LEDs and other items. Current capacity is 800mah.  It is incredibly small and a challenge to work with...but I think I can sqeeze in eight AAA batteries.   

With successful rebuilding and operation of my original prototype using this new chip, I will likely accept his invitation to be a reseller of his products here in the US.  This may also involve supplying RC conversion kits to hobbyists, but evaluations of the train market and the overall economic forecast have yet to be done.

I enjoy the challenge and don't mind "sticking my neck out" on this investment, but I would not like to see anyone hurt by their investment as a result of my enthusiasm or insinuations about this product if good results don't happen.  Please bear with me while I sort things out.  If I can get it right, it will be something to celebrate.  Whether or not I succeed, I think the future of train control will be with RC.

Dan      

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Good news Dan,

now I know what you are talking about.

http://www.deltang.co.uk/


Juergen

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So, Juergen, which one will you buy?  I'm working with the Rx43d-2-v5.  Maybe we can "compare notes".

Dan 

 

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Dan,

these boards are for max 6V or 1 lipo cell. To my opinion, most loco drives will need at least two lipo cells to provide a satisfying speed with load at the hook.

So If I don't want to create a new drive for each loco you want to equip with RC, I will need such an ADD1 board to provide up to 10V for the motor and I need a voltage regulator to power the receiver board. Or I only make use of the benefit to have a incredible small receiver and add an external esc. But as David (the producer) told me, there may be board for higher voltage in future.

But despite this fact these receivers a are really sophisticated boards with a big potential using them for model trains and I can only recommend to the others to have a closer look to these boards and to take up some time reading on the web site. David gave me this additional link with some additional explanations
http://www.deltang.co.uk/v5.htm

My next project is a little Gn15 critter that will hopefully go with 1 lipo cell. So for the first I will be able to use one of this boards without additional parts.


Juergen

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Juergen,

It took many e-mails and several months before deciding to buy the v5 board.  The v5 is actually one of several boards that "evoloved" during this time.  Let me explain my reasons for buying it. 

From the motor side, I mentioned earlier using a Swiss-made motor for my prototype model. These motors (I have around 12 of them) were purchased as surplus from AllElectronics.com for less than $10 each.  While originally intended for locomotive rebuild projects, their high torque and efficiency and 6v rating make them ideal for use with this 3-6v rated board.

On the battery side, I faced the same dilema you are facing and I had to adjust my original thinking. My prototype is an AMD-103 passenger locomotive that needs to pull several cars. I agree that one 3.7v LiPo cell is not a good arrangement, including using them in parallel for more capacity.  I investigated 3.2v LiFePO4 cells, and while superior to LiPo cells, the supply is limited and 2 cells also exceed the 6v board rating.

The next phase of investigation involved the Dimension Engineering AnyVolt Micro, an excellent product for obtaining a desired output voltage. I finally rejected this approach because of insertion loss, the additional cost and the extra space it would need including the wiring.

So I decided for now to use 8 Sanyo Eneloop AAA size NiMH batteries.  This provides 4.8v and 1,800 mah, enough to run approx. 6-8 hrs under load. If I can find room for 2 more cells, I will have 6v at the board and slightly increase speed or run time. 

AA cells have more capacity, but special framing is needed to accomodate larger cells, so this is a future consideration.  Eneloops are not expensive and they are available everywhere.  Tenergy is another supplier. Two more benefits are that they are heavier than LiPo's for better traction, and have a flat discharge curve for consistent performance.  

Maybe you can find space for AAA cells for your Gn15 project and use these new 6v boards.  But it sounds like the 10v boards will be available soon and it may be better to wait to better match what you have and to avoid buying ADD1 boards.               

These new boards raise the bar for RC battery power operation.  You can operate in forward or reverse in 64 steps using the joystick centered for zero speed, or forward or backwards in 128 steps using the full range of the joystick...a nice feature.       

As great as these boards are, given their size, the only downside I see is the great difficulty in working with them.  In any case, this PCB might just be the game changer we've been looking for. 

Dan                          

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Dan,

my next Gn15 loco will look similar to this model of my friend Otter1/KEG



No, I don't think that there is place for AAA batteries :)

But as I said, I think 1 Lipo cell will be sufficient for the drive used.

My already RC-equipped locos are pleasantly running :thumb:, so no need for changes.

Juergen

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In "defense" of extremely cheap r/c, I have a Ford Model T track inspection car which runs with a 1 cell 3.7 volt Li Poly and a cheap (and very tiny) r/c toy car receiver. It only has forward & reverse, no speed control but the car has an 80:1 Faulhaber geared motor and runs about a scale 5 MPH. The gearing seems to give the mechanism a "soft start/stop" with a little coast. The point is that with the proper gearing, a very small model can have a satisfying speed and not cost a bundle. The r/c car cost about $7.00 USD. Such a tiny board could be used in something like the tiny critter shown above.

Woodie

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Juergen,

Excellent!...and very inspiring. I must try building one of these soon.

Dan

 

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I just discovered a link to a battery manufacturer which has tremendous implications for the future of battery powered, RC trains.  

California based Envia Systems has prototyped a Lithium-Ion battery with the highest energy density known - 400 watt-hours per kilogram!  The article talks about their 46,000 mah Lithium pouch rechargeable cells which are 97mm wide x 190mm long x 10mm thick.  The cells in the new Tesla electric car are only 121 watt-hours per kilogram!

I imagine cells about 1/3 this width and length (30 x 60mm) could provide about 4,000 mah capacity, and with three cells side by side (30mm) wired in parallel, we might get 12,000 mah capacity and be able to fit this in a wide-bodied HO locomotive (FP45? E7? RDC?).   

In any case, it seems we can look forward to using more powerful batteries for longer run times, or bigger loads, or for adding lighting and sound.  Engines large and small will benefit.  RC becomes more practical.  The future is looking a little brighter...

Google Envia Systems for more information.

Dan     

  

     

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Juergen,

With regard to your May 23 post on the subject of sound, it may interest you to know that SoundTraxx (soundtraxx.co), a leading supplier of sound decoders, is now advertising their Surroundtraxx multi-train sound system for DCC. It makes use of multiple audio speakers placed around the layout so that the sound follows the engine. It also mixes sound when trains pass each other.

For my on-board sound project, I'm in discussions with Dallee Electronics (dallee.com) to see if I can use their sound module using my r/c equipment for control.

Regards, Dan

 

 

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Thank you Dan,

I know this already. But Signal processing and transmitting uses DCC.

The general technique is already there, mixing and fading sounds in and out.
The combination with RC has to be "created" by one self.

Juergen

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I have a question principally for "the old guru", Woodie who pretty much started all this.
All the mentions of voltage are for anything from 3.7 - 8 volts, but the average Rx works on about 5, is it? And yet most model railway loco motors as bought, are 12volt.
What gives, guys?
I have some nice motors including Portescap coreless, but I think they are all 12 volt, although I would get 6 volt mini-motors if necessary.

Martin

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Martin-I will have to leave the motor/voltage to others who specialize in such info. I use the 7.4 volt, 2 cell Li Polys because at "full tilt", they run my pokey lokies at a nice "top end". Years ago, when I ran with DC (I never messed with DCC except to install for others), I noted that I almost never ran my engines over about 6 volts. Therefore, the 7.4 volts are fine for me. My friend Mopman who has a large DC MoPac HO layout, has a GP-7 lashup with a powered Athearn and a dummy with a Kyosho board and a 3 cell 11.1 volt Li Poly...he needs that extra "oomph" to boost 10-12 car trains up a 2% grade and do local switching, the old Athearn motors need some voltage to run at a decent speed. I do have a railcar with an old Grandt Micro-Mo 80:1 gearhead motor (similar to your Portescaps) which barely makes 7 SMPH flat out on 7.4 volts. All I suggest is trying different voltages to see what works for you.
Does any of this help?

Woodie

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Makes good sense Woodie, yes, thanks.
I guess at crawl speeds I need for my narrow gauge models that would be fine.

Juergen has sent me to the Spektrum AR6300 Rx and a fairly cheap (£12) ESC, which I will investigate, though it seems to make sense to me to use your Losi idea because I have so much 27Meg gear and if it worked once it'll still work. I might do both with Losi in the bigger models and the AR6300 to go with the Spektrum 2.4 Gig Tx I bought earlier this year for an aircraft which I probably won't build as I can't afford the membership of a Model aircraft club and the rip-off insurance costs. The Spektrum Rx is smaller and gives the ability to put it in one place with the ESC in another.

Thanks again.
Martin

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Martin - It's interesting that we are using similar components. About 2 years ago I purchased a Spektrum DX5e 2.4 GHz Tx with DSM2 modulation. It came with an AR500 Rx. I also picked up a reversing ESC, which worked, but which has also been a little problematic.

This, plus the space the Rx and ESC occupied in my HO prototype engine, prompted me to get the 11x12mm Deltang 2.4 GHz Spektrum compatible Rx/ESC chip, which now allows me to double battery power. A lot of my adventure with r/c is detailed on this thread since I started posting back on Sept 26, 2011. I also put up a photo on Nov 14, 2011, if you are interested. Juergen has been helpful in seeing me through several problems. Woodie and Herb have supplied much needed encouragement.

But the main reason for this post is your mentioning of the motors you are using. Several years ago I was able to buy about 12 Portescap 23L2R 21 213P 15 motors from allelectronics.com. I was so impressed with the first two I bought, I eventually purchased 10 more! They were about US$8.50 each, which is 1/4th the cost of a Proto-Power, Sagami or NWSL 12V motor. My Escap motors are rated at 6 volts, which is perfect for my 6 volt rated Deltang board. I also have 10 Portescap 22N2R 28 213P 51 motors from a similar purchase.

After months of looking around for the ideal battery, I decided for now to use Sanyo Eneloop AA or AAA NiMH batteries for the following reasons:

* They are a standard size, and readily available at reasonable cost.
* Heavier NiMH batteries are actually good for train use.
* Four of them provide 4.8 volts. While five provide 6.0 volts, fully charged batteries exceed 6.0 volts, which exceeds the rating of my Rx/ESC.
* LiPo batteries have a higher energy density, but charging requires monitoring and they are less safe when voltages drop too low.
* LiFePO4 batteries are relatively safe, but availability is limited.

The new chip has made rebuilding my prototype necessary. I'm working on adding basic sound to my engine, controlled by my Tx.   

I thought I'd share some of my experiences with you given we are using similar r/c equipment. Portescap can provide you with a data sheet for your motors, if you contact them. Keep us posted.

Regards,

Dan          
    

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Hi Dan,
thanks for all the info.
Portescap motors are now unavailable over here as far as I know, but I also have some tiny Mashimas and a few that are used in HO slot cars.

I wouldn't have space in my small narrow gauge locos for 4 AAA batteries, but I do have a very small Lipo pack.

I will look up the Deltang RX/ESC combo. I'll only be building one or two locos.

Thanks again.

Martin

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Now there's interesting. The DT page itself mentions HO and N as if these are intended for railways, yet on the Micron page where they're sold, the impression is one of the units being for aircraft and therefore one way only ESCs. (Don't ask me what a FET is!)

Can you clarify that, Dan?

The price is better than the two component deal above as long as the built in ESC is two way.

Martin

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Martin - I have a DT Rx/ESC Version 5 board for some four months now.  Micron has either not received these types yet, or has not bothered to update their website.  There may be other reasons.  

I ordered the V5 Rx from the manufacturer after 4 months of discussion regarding its use as a replacement for my separate, space consuming Rx and ESC modules.  It is possible the manufacturer is still optimizing and tailoring this Rx before further distribution.  I have seen updates to the V5 board since receiving the one I have.  I suspect he may be waiting for feedback from me.

Fets were explained in one of the e-mails from DT.  These are high current switches with Pulse Width Modulation.  PWM is used to create voltages from 0-100% battery voltage in 64 steps over full stick travel.  I have already inquired about using half stick travel for forward and backward (with center off) and this can also be done.  V5 will allow each Fet, or "brushed ESC" to be mapped to any channel.

I hope this helps.

Dan 

Paglesham
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Thanks Dan, so are you saying that they have a bi-directional ESC fitted?

The word programmable puts shivers up me. I don't even know how to bind my Spektrum when I eventually get a suitable Rx!

Cheers,
Martin

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Woodie, your little critter with the $7 car innards?? Does the original car toy use one of those tiny 1/4AAA cell batteries with 2 AAs in the controller to charge it as originally supplied? That's what mine and I guess all the other toy cars in a coke can type things use. I need to know that the 1 cell 3.7 volt LiPo won't fry the board. If you have much the same innards I know I'm OK.
Martin

W C Greene
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Martin-low & behold, the little 7 buck car board will handle a 2 cell 7.4 volt battery! I used one of the boards in my old Model T. The T had an 80:1 geared motor so it needed 7 volts to run about 5-7 SMPH...3 volts would take forever! Now the battery I used was a little 2 cell 180 MAH Li Po but it did indeed work. Certainly the single cell 3.7 volt will work. Good luck and have fun...

Woodie

BTW-my feeling is that there is way too much being made about batteries and programming. I guess I am a lucky idiot...my stuff has worked for years with no programming or worries about exploding batteries!

Paglesham
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Fantastic, Woodie, I knew you'd come through!

For my use a single cell is small enough and powerful enough for the tiny but highly geared motor.
My dear bride has just ordered me a Coke can car for £7, so I can re-aquaint myself with the wiring. I'm sure they'll be similar underneath.
So then I'll have two sets of innards!

Great stuff.

Many thanks,
Martin

PS, I tend to agree about all the programming and LiPo fears. I think you have the right idea to simply take your time with the charging at a low rate. For that, there are now very cheap LiPo chargers for less than a tenner.

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BTW,...I'm building a flywheel into this loco to ensure slow start/stop. Beyond that, shunting can be done with an on/off sequence. But these oil engined locos tended to run like a canal boat...4mph everywhere!

Martin

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AMEN! Go for it Martin. Forge ahead and don't listen to nay-sayers...they are full of nay.

Woodie

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Nay? Is that what that brown stuff's called??:thumb:
Thanks for the support on the "other place". I didn't know you were on there.
I am not at all surprised by the response so far. If you've had problems in "can do" America, imagine what the fossils of Britain will be like!

We'll show em.

Martin

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Woodie, you see what I mean? More pointless "Nay" from someone in "another place"!
I bet he won't check out your line for realistic trackwork.

Cheers,
Martin

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Golly gee, Martin...after my latest post on that "other" site...we may both be censored or deleted! Well, at least we have our trains!

Thank goodness for Freerails!

Woodie-Outlaw Troublemaker

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Martin - Yes on the bi-directional Rx/ESC. There are several types available.

Programming trains is also of no interest to me. I like RC control because it avoids this, and allows complicated, realistic looking trackwork without having to worry about track wiring or cleaning.

Dan

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Hey! Martin -  I went back to the Micron website and they are showing the bi-directional boards discussed earlier. Check out the link when you can.

http://www.micronradiocontrol.co.uk/rx_dt_land.html#dt_rx43d_1_v5

Dan 

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Woodie, it wouldn't surprise me. They have their favourites on that forum and I have never been one of em! I just ask too many questions and show that this lark is not as difficult as so many think. But my threads get a lot of response, right up until I get booted off, which I already was a long time ago!!

As you say, we have our trains and thank heavens for Freerails. I've just linked a slot car friend across to the R/C thread because he wants to do all the James Bond bits in one of his Aston Martin DB5s. He is really excited by what he's read.

Dan, thanks for the link. I missed that bit. That's a very good price.

Cheers,
Martin

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Also, please define your terms and acronyms. I was into page 7 of this thread before I decided I HAD to know what ESC was before continuing.

Definition: Used only on some electric R/Cs, the ESC is a device that regulates the amount of power that goes to the electric motor. The device may be separate from (but plugged into) or a part of the receiver. ESC stands for electronic speed controller. The ESC interprets signals from the receiver and works to provide variation in motor speed and direction and may act as a braking mechanism. There are electronic speed controls for brushed and brush-less motors.

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Howdy Nick. Yep, you found out about the secretive ESC's. As for "brushed and brush-less" motors, all the motors we use in model railroading are brushed. There has been some discussion about using brushless motors and I am awaiting the first photos and descriptions of how one is installed. So for now, just look at brushed ESC's.

Woodie

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Woodie, back on 04/12/2012, you said, "If I could figure out how to install solar collectors that look like cab roofs, I wouldn't need batteries any more...that would be a hoot!"

When were at the train show last week, they had a train with an infrared controller (not radio) that worked when pointed at a small rectangle on top, that looked exactly like a steam loco roof vent!

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Wow Nick! Glad that you remember what I wrote...I can't remember what transpired last night!! (Missy will probably tell me later)
That IR loco sounds cool, I ain't an IR kind of guy but whatever works is the right thing to do. Train shows down here in Dallas are still stuck in the last century. A year or so back, a club with DCC didn't want me to run an r/c loco because they feared it might goof up their equipment. Well, my loco wouldn't have liked to run on their layout anyway.

Woodie

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Can anyone tell me if a Deltang RX programmed for Selecta (TX22 transmitter), can be bound to a TX21 transmitter?

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Hi Rod, 

 No that won't work reliably.

Tx22 uses ch2 (=Pin2) for the selecta signal, or better an Rx with activated selecta feature, ecpects a selecta signal on ch2.
On Tx21 ch2 is not connected at all. So ch2 is floating and can lead to a random behavior of Rx's with activated selecta feature. 

You can deactivate selecta on the Rx in question, or you open the Tx21 and fix ch2 to a certain value.
Juergen

Last edited on Sun Aug 12th, 2018 03:35 pm by Toeffelholm

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Hi Juergen, thanks for that quick reply. I have a friend who has blown a RX 6x, suitable for a TX1, up. He wants one of mine but mine are setup for TX22, and I have never tried to bind the, to other transmitters.

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Hi Rod,

in this case it would be the easiest way to disable the selecta feature on your Rx.


If you are not used to programming DelTang Rx's, you could do it with the paperclip method.


Paperclip Changes




Juergen

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Hi Juergen,
We have contacted the Australian Deltang supplier and he is sorting out replacement parts. 
Rod.

Last edited on Mon Aug 13th, 2018 10:19 am by Rod Hutchinson

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I want to use an actuator (coil)  to operate a hook type coupler.

I am using Deltang R6x-22 receivers.   Each Pad is 3v Max current of 0.020 Amps.  To achieve these specifications I require an actuator (coil) of at least 150 ohms.

Can I wire an actuator (coil), to output pads with a resistor in series?Does any one know where I can purchase actuators (coils) <150 ohms?

Last edited on Wed Aug 22nd, 2018 05:32 am by Rod Hutchinson

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every relay is a coili would recomend to look for some old relais and try someCor

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Hi Rod,
If you could use an F output of an Rx65, a higher current demand would be no matter.
Why not using a small servo for this task?
Juergen 

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Hu Juergen,
I can't find a small servo.  The smallest I can find are too large for the location.
There doesn't seem to be any RX65b available

Last edited on Sat Aug 25th, 2018 10:48 am by Rod Hutchinson

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Heavens,
the RX65c has superseded the 'b'. Emax have some servos in the 22x23x8mm range. What's the issue then? Tell about the space you have available, I remember there are much smaller ones used for the RC cars in H0 scale.

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Rod,
A newly designed Rx65c is available just now.

New Rx65c

The last micro Servo I bought was from blue arrow

Micro servos



Juergen 

Last edited on Sat Aug 25th, 2018 01:40 pm by Toeffelholm

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Helmut wrote: Heavens,
the RX65c has superseded the 'b'. Emax have some servos in the 22x23x8mm range. What's the issue then? Tell about the space you have available, I remember there are much smaller ones used for the RC cars in H0 scale.
Why have you chosen to use the word "Heavens"  I have interpreted that as critiscism.  The RX65C and RX66 were not on the Deltang web site a few days a go.
I would appreaciate a little more courtesy.
And I am aware of the RX4x series which I have used in the past, suitable for a TX22 transmitter.

Last edited on Sat Aug 25th, 2018 10:24 pm by Rod Hutchinson

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Toeffelholm wrote: Rod,
A newly designed Rx65c is available just now.

New Rx65c

Juergen 

Thank you Juergen.  That must have occurred over the few days.  I see he has an RX66.  Quite high currents.

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In case you look for small servos: http://readygorc.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=113_179

Last edited on Mon Aug 27th, 2018 10:20 am by Helmut

Rod Hutchinson
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Helmut wrote: In case you look for small servos: http://readygorc.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=113_179 Thank you Helmut.  I had bought a pair of GS-1502 linear servo for steering in a HO scale car.  If they work from Deltang P pads I think I may solve power problem to operate the coupler.  Magnetic actuators are a wee bit smaller than the linear servo.  All of this is an experiment at this point as I have never done this before.  I have only used P pads for LEDs.    
GS-1502  Linear Servo under consideration.

      
Actuator under consideration.

Last edited on Mon Aug 27th, 2018 11:05 am by Rod Hutchinson


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