Freerails Home 
Home Search search Menu menu Not logged in - Login | Register
Freerails > Model Railroad Forums > Logging & Mining > Corrimal Colliery Incline

Because of non-railroad abuse of the site, new members MUST use their first names (at least) to join NO EXCEPTIONS!

Corrimal Colliery Incline
 Moderated by: oztrainz Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  ...  Next Page Last Page  
New Topic Reply Printer Friendly
 Rating:  Rating
AuthorPost
 Posted: Sat Feb 6th, 2016 04:41 am
  PMQuoteReply
41st Post
Kitbash0n30
Registered


Joined: Mon Dec 10th, 2012
Location: Boonville, Missouri USA
Posts: 552
Status: 
Offline
What I can add about those striations from the space and sci-fi modeling genre, the miniatures gaming genre, and the Early Rail, and Gn15, railroad modeling genres, is that it is result of the accumulating layers as print material is laid down to build up object height.
And that John was lucky they were oriented horizontal instead of vertical. Often one can only guess which way the printer will orient the printing layers.

Last edited on Sat Feb 6th, 2016 04:42 am by Kitbash0n30



____________________
See y'all later, Forrest.
Screw the rivets, I'm building for atmosphere
Back To Top

 Posted: Sat Feb 6th, 2016 04:48 am
  PMQuoteReply
42nd Post
oztrainz
Super Moderator


Joined: Wed Apr 10th, 2013
Location: Unanderra, Australia
Posts: 721
Status: 
Offline
Hi all again,
a couple of things I forgot - The mark 7 also had locating lugs to positively locate the DG couplings at each end

Comparing a Mark 6 underframe again

with a Mark 7 underframe

You can see the locating tabs - This could be relevant if you want to 3D- print a wagon chassis. The same tactic can be used to positively locate your coupler boxes/supporting structures

Oh & in this photo

the back row and all the white resin skip bodies don't have underframes - so they are still some ways away from being capable of rolling.

But sometimes we had a "wheely bad" skip

This one had a bearing mounting fail on the grade and got "relegated" to "scenery"

That's it over there on the wrong side of the tracks - downhill of the catchpoints - but that's another story for another time..;)



____________________
Regards,
John Garaty
Unanderra in oz
Back To Top

 Posted: Sat Feb 6th, 2016 03:22 pm
  PMQuoteReply
43rd Post
Herb Kephart
Super Moderator


Joined: Thu Jul 19th, 2007
Location: Glen Mills, Pennsylvania USA
Posts: 6070
Status: 
Offline
John, you definitely need more skips-----

You have replaced rivet counting--my favorite pass time---with skip counting.

Thanks! A lot easier on the old eyes!

Herb



____________________
Fix it again, Mr Gates--it still works!"
Back To Top

 Posted: Sat Feb 6th, 2016 09:22 pm
  PMQuoteReply
44th Post
oztrainz
Super Moderator


Joined: Wed Apr 10th, 2013
Location: Unanderra, Australia
Posts: 721
Status: 
Offline
Hi Herb and all,
So Herb wants to count coal skips - Here's why we'll need so many.

When in full swing at a multi-day exhibition we figure we'll need about 77 skips on the layout.
They are planned to shuttle between the incline and the mine in trains of 11 skips. I'll also cover the motive power of what hauls what where.
The breakup -
(1) - One train "underground" at the mine being re-loaded with coal with battery-electric locomotive
(2) - One loaded train at the mine surface ready to head to the Incline Top with no locomotive
(3) - One empty train on the way back from the Incline Top to the mine hauled by a steam locomotive
(4) - one full train delivered to the incline top no locomotive
(5) - one full train being moved to or staged at the incline top by a battery-electric locomotive
(6) - One train on the Incline, with 2 skips on the way down the "hill", one being tipped, 2 skips on the bay back up the "hill" and the rest either full awaiting their turn or as empty skips that coupled back together at the top of the Incline.

So - there is 66 skips for a start. There also are some non-operational sidings that could swallow another 20 to 30 skips easily...These replicate holding siding as the incline Top that were horse-worked on the prototype

For exhibition running, we figure we'll probably need another 10% to 20% of coal skips up our sleeve for contingencies in a multi-day exhibition (about an other train of 11 skips) - "if it misbehaves - it's swapped out". We'll sort out why it misbehaved later.. We're running coal on a 25% or 1 in 4 grade. We can't afford to have a skip hiccup twice on the grade.

Last Easter the layout at Stage 1 went to the Australian Narrow Gauge Convention at Bowral, operating intermittently over 2 days, skips with just over 200 loads were run on the incline, tipped, and returned to the Incline Top. We had 3 breakaways on the grade over both days. That is approaching the type of operational reliability we need on this layout. But we're not there yet.



____________________
Regards,
John Garaty
Unanderra in oz
Back To Top

 Posted: Sat Feb 6th, 2016 09:42 pm
  PMQuoteReply
45th Post
oztrainz
Super Moderator


Joined: Wed Apr 10th, 2013
Location: Unanderra, Australia
Posts: 721
Status: 
Offline
Hi all,
following on from the previous post -
Let's look at some of the logistics of this layout in an 8-hour show day. Because of the way the tip cycle is worked and controlled, the fastest we can go is that we'll be tipping at rate of about a skip a minute. In an 8 hour shift - 480 skips have to be:
individually uncoupled,
travel the incline down hill under magnetic haulage,
be tipped (and have the coal loads caught so that we can reload it back at the mine),
be moved to the kick-back siding under magnetic haulage
roll away under gravity and be diverted to the foot of the the "empties" incline
travel back up hill under magnetic haulage,
automatically couple to the empty skips at the top of the incline,
be moved in trains of 11 skips to the mine by a steam locomotive,
swap the steam locomotive for a battery-electric locomotive,
be moved to the "underground" loading area by the battery-electric locomotive,
be reloaded,
be moved to the surface 'fulls' siding at the mine surface by the battery-electric locomotive,
swap the battery-electric loco for a steam locomotive,
transfer the loaded skips to the incline top
swap the steam locomotive for the battery-electric locomotive,
shunt the loaded wagons to the top of the incline, and
the steam locomotive collects 11 empty skips and heads back to the mine.

L: In simple terms every 10 minutes we need a new loaded coal train at the incline top. In an 8 hour shift that is close on 50 trains - and the empty skips have to go back the other way. Remember we are simulating a self-acting incline - No loaded coal skips at the top waiting to go down hill STOPS the incline. Also don't forget from the time a skip is uncoupled at the top of incline and heads down hill under magnetic haulage until the same skip arrives back up at the incline Top on another track after tipping, this whole trip is under "Hands free" operation.

Now what could possibly go wrong? :w::w:

This could be why it has taken us 10 year's plus of development work and study of the prototype to get to where we are today - just beginning to lay track back toward the mine..that's going to be the easy part. After all its only some single track on a mountain side, some loops at the mine surface and an "underground" balloon loop. In the words of a former BBC motoring commentator -"How hard can it be?"

Last edited on Tue May 31st, 2016 02:44 am by oztrainz



____________________
Regards,
John Garaty
Unanderra in oz
Back To Top

 Posted: Wed Jun 1st, 2016 04:29 am
  PMQuoteReply
46th Post
oztrainz
Super Moderator


Joined: Wed Apr 10th, 2013
Location: Unanderra, Australia
Posts: 721
Status: 
Offline
Hi all again,
It's been a while - So where was we? Talking coal skips.
But these skips need something to run on. We left track construction back here


And way back in Post 28 on Page 3 I wrote:
Please remember that we are pot-holing the history of the layout build at this point in the saga on here. So far we have yet to lay any tracks on the incline itself.
and... And we are at Easter 2012 - almost 6 1/2 years after thinking modelling the Corrimal incline was a "bright idea". :Crazy:


So a decision was made to build from the bottom-end upwards and from the tipple deck outwards. But the build was complicated because not only was the track climbing a hill, but we had to fit in chain paths under the track for hauling the skips magnetically up and down the hill.

O Scale pile driving finally commenced for the tipple deck in July 2012

This called from some "creative engineering" to get the chain channels across module joints at the bottom

and top of the hill


So how did the chain paths end up?
At the top of the hill


and at the bottom of the Hill


And just to prove the incline might work, we had a little play with the track blue-tacked to the chain channels https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fw35hd23fjw

The next move was to build out from the other end of the tipple deck to the kick-back siding that was to go in at the far end of this photo. And yes there is another chain under this section of track too. It will become cleare why we needed it in my next post on "Tipple Design and Control".


Then we had to plate over the chain paths with styrene and finally lay some track. The styrene gives a slippery surface for the magnet on the chain to skate along under the track. Our first attempts to glue the track to the styrene were not all that successful.


So the whole of the chain path was re-plated and the incline tracks were re-laid with a better method of holding the track down in early 2013.


Next up - the saga of tipple design and control



____________________
Regards,
John Garaty
Unanderra in oz
Back To Top

 Posted: Wed Jun 1st, 2016 01:35 pm
  PMQuoteReply
47th Post
W C Greene
Super Moderator


Joined: Fri May 4th, 2007
Location: Dallas, Texas USA
Posts: 7323
Status: 
Offline
WOW! Glad to see this up & going again. I can't wait till' you post a video of this operating. Be about a week or so??? This is great, don't forget us out here in the hinterlands.

Woodie



____________________
Go ahead, make my day!
Back To Top

 Posted: Wed Jun 1st, 2016 03:22 pm
  PMQuoteReply
48th Post
Herb Kephart
Super Moderator


Joined: Thu Jul 19th, 2007
Location: Glen Mills, Pennsylvania USA
Posts: 6070
Status: 
Offline
Outstanding ''engineering'' John!

And not a loco or a caboose in sight! 

Well done!

Herb



____________________
Fix it again, Mr Gates--it still works!"
Back To Top

 Posted: Wed Jun 1st, 2016 11:35 pm
  PMQuoteReply
49th Post
NevadaBlue
Registered


Joined: Mon Apr 7th, 2014
Location: Under The Blue Nevada Sky, Nevada USA
Posts: 705
Status: 
Offline
Yes, good to see an update John. Nice work!



____________________
Ken

Back To Top

 Posted: Thu Jun 2nd, 2016 05:52 am
  PMQuoteReply
50th Post
oztrainz
Super Moderator


Joined: Wed Apr 10th, 2013
Location: Unanderra, Australia
Posts: 721
Status: 
Offline
Hi all again,
One of the problems of working with coalmines and coal skips and larger coal hoppers is that there is a significant visual difference between full and empty wagons. This is even even more pronounced for Corrimal, with a dedicated track with full coal skips heading down hill and a dedicated track with empty coal skips going back uphill.

Early on when there was some doubt that we could actually get something that could deliver coal down a 1 in 4 grade, tip it out and send the empties back up the grade, one of the big stumbling blocks was designing an effective "tipper-outer". We even looked at avoiding tipping at all by using something like the ducks at a shooting gallery with the skips permanently attached to a chain under the rails, being trundled along the incline and then magically disappearing at either end of the run, with full skips going one way and the empty skips going the other and with the wheels of the skips running on rails to assist the illusion.

So let's look at the "tipper-outer" and some basic design concepts, why and how our tipper-outer developed the way it did.

Realistically there are only 3 basic designs to get stuff out of a coal skip:
1 - end-dump - the load is tipped when the wagon is flipped longitudinally
2 - side dump - the load is tipped when the wagon is flipped over onto its side
3 - rotary-dump - a more extreme version of the side dump, but with a longitudinal pivot point somewhere within the outline of the vehicle.
For any of these 3 methods the rotation may go through the full 360 degrees or go part way over and come back to the start point.

Also remember that the aim of the game when tipping a wagon is to tip the wagon and have it stay on the rails while being tipped and after it is tipped. You also do not want your wagon to follow its load when it is tipped. :doh:

This means that the wagon has to be "held captive" during the tipping process. Again there are a couple of basic ways of achieving this:
1- clamp the vehicle down to the rails
2- trap the top of the wagon
3- trap the side of the wagon
4 -trap the wheels or bogies of the wagon
Tolerances are tight here - experience taught us the hard way that if you allow 1/2 a flange height of slop than you are likely to have a jam-up in the tipple cage with a derailed car. Given we were aiming for hands-free operation of the whole bottom-end operations of the Incline, no jam-ups at the tipple were allowed. The "tipper-outer" and its operational controls had to be "more than bullet-proof".

So what do we know about the prototype? In a book published in 1912 by a mining engineer there was a fairly comprehensive description of the equipment at Corrimal and how it was being operated. The date of the visit had to be prior to the end of 1904 because of the closure of one of part of the operation due to flooding in late 1904. The tipple was listed as a side tipper.

This tipple was working from 1880, long before electric motors and hydraulics. So how might this tipple have worked? Also recorded in this same book were the weights and dimensions of the Corrimal coal skips. An empty skip weighed in at 2 cwt (or 224 lb = 102 kg) with a capacity of 3/4 ton (1680 lb = 762 kg).

The weight difference is enough to overcome any frictional losses and makes possible a counterbalanced tipple cage that when a full skip is in place the tipple wants to tip. Once the coal falls out, the counterweights now weigh more than the skip, and causes the cage with the now empty skip to return its starting point. A simple locking lever will hold the cage at its starting point. Push out the empty skip and push in the next full skip of coal, Unlock the cage by moving the locking lever and whoosh - clang, you've tipped another skip, and so on...

But an empty model skip weighs in at 7 grams (about 1/4 oz) and a model skips loaded with coal tips the scale at a massive 18 grams (just over 1/2 oz) Using a counterbalance tipple is not a viable option because the weight difference is not enough to overcome the frictional losses. So we have to fudge the model to do what the prototype did.

We needed a Plan B - But that's for the next post, There's already too many words in this one. :bg:

Last edited on Thu Jun 2nd, 2016 05:54 am by oztrainz



____________________
Regards,
John Garaty
Unanderra in oz
Back To Top


 Current time is 08:21 pm
Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  ...  Next Page Last Page  

Freerails > Model Railroad Forums > Logging & Mining > Corrimal Colliery Incline
Top



UltraBB 1.172 Copyright © 2007-2016 Data 1 Systems