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- New Battery Technologies - What Do We Need ? -
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 Posted: Sat Feb 21st, 2015 02:33 am
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W C Greene
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Pete is right...you get what you pay for. I use whatever fits into my locos, most are 2 cell, 1200MAH or so and have been in use for years. Have fun and run a r/c train today.

Woodie



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 Posted: Wed Feb 25th, 2015 05:32 pm
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dan3192
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Pete:

Been meaning to get back to you on your recent post (#33).

What you say is correct, but I generally take a slightly different approach. When remotoring, I prefer using 6V Escap, Maxon or Faulhaber motors because of their high efficiency. This does two things: 1) I only need half the number of cells for 6V vs 12V and, 2) high efficiency motors generally do the same work with fewer cells. The net result is less room required for batteries, LiPo or Li-ion.

When staying with 12V, as with the BLI Hudson I converted to BPRC, I use the highest capacity Li-ion's I can find. Fortunately, 18650 size 3,400 mAh cells are now available and I've since replaced the 2,250 mAh cells I used last year. For this conversion, I'm also using a step-up voltage regulator to boost 7.4V to 12V.

Yes, you lose about 10-12% battery power using a regulator, but with such powerful batteries, I'd rather have constant (and adjustable!) voltage for operation vs a little more operating time.   

I don't know what gauge or model(s) you are working with, but these new 18650's fit nicely in my HO narrow bodied diesels. 18500 x 2,000mAh cells are available for a better fit. I have a couple of protected 3,400mAh types, but they are "18700" in size. BTW, stay with Panasonic for quality cells.  

So 6V systems, high efficiency motors and high capacity batteries are what I shoot for, less some occasional modifying realities I have to live with.

Dan        

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 Posted: Wed Feb 25th, 2015 05:55 pm
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Pete Steinmetz
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dan3192 wrote:
Pete:

Been meaning to get back to you on your recent post (#33).

What you say is correct, but I generally take a slightly different approach. When remotoring, I prefer using 6V Escap, Maxon or Faulhaber motors because of their high efficiency. This does two things: 1) I only need half the number of cells for 6V vs 12V and, 2) high efficiency motors generally do the same work with fewer cells. The net result is less room required for batteries, LiPo or Li-ion.

When staying with 12V, as with the BLI Hudson I converted to BPRC, I use the highest capacity Li-ion's I can find. Fortunately, 18650 size 3,400 mAh cells are now available and I've since replaced the 2,250 mAh cells I used last year. For this conversion, I'm also using a step-up voltage regulator to boost 7.4V to 12V.

Yes, you lose about 10-12% battery power using a regulator, but with such powerful batteries, I'd rather have constant (and adjustable!) voltage for operation vs a little more operating time.   

I don't know what gauge or model(s) you are working with, but these new 18650's fit nicely in my HO narrow bodied diesels. 18500 x 2,000mAh cells are available for a better fit. I have a couple of protected 3,400mAh types, but they are "18700" in size. BTW, stay with Panasonic for quality cells.  

So 6V systems, high efficiency motors and high capacity batteries are what I shoot for, less some occasional modifying realities I have to live with.

Dan        


Dan:

Thanks for the update. I am in On30 and don't have room for 18650 or 18500 cells. Plus I need 12V as I have not remotored my Bachmann locos. I'm not sure how Tsunamis would work on 7.4V.

My life would be a lot easier if I could use 18650 or 18500 cells. I am very familiar with Panasonic cells. Good quality. LG and Samsung cells are also quality brands.

I avoid unknown Chinese brands. The slightly higher price of name brands is worth it to me.

Pete



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 Posted: Wed Feb 25th, 2015 07:08 pm
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dan3192
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Pete:

On30 and no room? Too bad. I'm hoping soon for Li-ion's in AA and AAA format.

I've got some pretty, red colored 4.2v 4,200mAh Ultrafire 18650's available. Any one interested should send a PM.

Please, somebody, anybody send me a PM! They might be good for a flashlight...

Dan

P.S. Have accepted an invite for a clinic at the Mid-Eastern Region NMRA Convention in October. Dead rail operation sure to get more exposure.

 

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 Posted: Wed Feb 25th, 2015 07:19 pm
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Pete Steinmetz
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Dan:

PM sent.

Pete



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 Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2015 12:23 am
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bobquincy
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dan3192 wrote: Pete:

On30 and no room? Too bad. I'm hoping soon for Li-ion's in AA and AAA format.

 

Actually Li-ion is available in AA (14500) and AAA (10440), with and without protection circuits built in.  The AAA should work in some N scale models.  The ones with protection are sometimes a bit long but will work in some applications.

http://www.batteryjunction.com/14500-category.html
http://www.batteryjunction.com/10440-category.html

Last edited on Thu Feb 26th, 2015 12:27 am by bobquincy



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 Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2015 01:26 am
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dan3192
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Bob:

Based on my experience with 18650 Ultrafire cells, I can't trust their ratings. Their claimed 4,200mAh capacities turned out to be around 1,100mAh. So I can't see buying their AA or AAA cells in the future.

I think Nitecore might have more realistic ratings, but for $7.95/cell you are getting 2.775Wh of power (3.7v x 750mAh) vs an Eneloop Pro or Twicell NiMH battery which costs $3-4 and is good for 3.00Wh (1.2v x 2,500mAh). I have a few Paisen protected Li-ion AA cells, but have not yet tested them. They are rated 3.7v and 1,200mAh.

I also have some Ultrafire AAA Li-ion cells (3.7v, 650mAh) I bought about 3 yrs ago, but again, they don't deliver what they promise. So I should have said I'm hoping for genuine Li-ion cells in AA and AAA format.

I'll be staying with Eneloop for NiMH and Panasonic for Li-ion for now. BTW, the few Turnigy Nano-Tech LiPo's I have are very good.

Dan      

Last edited on Fri Feb 27th, 2015 05:57 pm by dan3192

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 Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2015 07:57 pm
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bobquincy
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Dan.

I have some Ultrafire AA and AAA but never tested them for capacity.  I am not surprised to see that they slightly (or grossly) overstated the capacity.  They work well to light LEDs as they are smaller and lighter than the otherwise required 2 or 3 NiMH.  The low discharge rate may help them to come closer to the given ratings.

It's tough to beat Eneloop for watt*hours per $ so I use these for most of my projects unless I really need the size and voltage of lithium polymer or ion.

boB



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 Posted: Fri Feb 27th, 2015 03:13 am
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dan3192
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Bob, I think this is the right approach. I use eight Eneloop AAA's in my BPRC diesel and the engine weighs in at one pound, two ounces, thanks to the heavier NiMH cells. I get about 4-5 hours run time pulling a string of passenger cars at medium speed, more with occasional stopping or lower speeds.

I'll soon be putting together another engine like this one, but batteries will consist of two 18650's in series with an adjustable step-down voltage regulator (for constant voltage operation and setting maximum speed).

It's interesting how things have progressed. The original engine with eight AAA's gives me about 7.68Wh of power. The Li-ions should provide around 25.16Wh of power, which should increase run time to approx. 12 hours.

I posted this photo and video link a couple of years ago, but here it is again. I hope it encourages some to "take the plunge" and build something so we have more notes to compare with.

http://www.freerails.com/gallery/3980/3980_191251_590000000.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUwTYucn6u8

Dan

Last edited on Fri Feb 27th, 2015 03:20 am by dan3192

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 Posted: Fri Feb 27th, 2015 03:43 am
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Pete Steinmetz
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bobquincy wrote:
dan3192 wrote: Pete:

On30 and no room? Too bad. I'm hoping soon for Li-ion's in AA and AAA format.

 

Actually Li-ion is available in AA (14500) and AAA (10440), with and without protection circuits built in.  The AAA should work in some N scale models.  The ones with protection are sometimes a bit long but will work in some applications.

http://www.batteryjunction.com/14500-category.html
http://www.batteryjunction.com/10440-category.html


I looked at Battery Junction AAA cells. I'm going to see if 3 cells will fit in my 2-6-0 tender.

I have access to a welder to build a pack. The cells are supposed to have protection. I will have to get a cell spec.



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