Freerails Home 
Freerails > Model Railroad Forums > Logging & Mining > Need A Prototype Mill & Mine

Freerails IS ACCEPTING new Members ... To join Freerails ... See how to Register as a Member in the 'Joining Freerails' Forum

 Moderated by: .  
AuthorPost
Sean W
Registered
 

Joined: Wed Apr 15th, 2015
Location:  
Posts: 91
Status: 
Offline
Hey guys,

I'm really really chewing on the idea of building Iain Rice's 4x8 " Lilliput Logger " layout. It has everything I was wanting in a very compact and manageable layout. A engine service facility, a town, a logging area, a coal mine, a mill, steep grades (4%) and trestles, and even a pier! It really is incredible the amount of stuff he was able to tastefully cram into this layout! I'd be aiming at post WWII 40s era.

I'm curious tho, If someone could give me insight to what the Mill and Coal Mine would look like? The Mine is circled in Red and the Mill is circled in blue.

Id want the Mill to be able to receive and unload logs on skeleton cars, then use flat cars to export the finished lumber product from the mill to the pier for export. I think this might be a tall order for such a compact mill... :/

The mine is just a coal mine on the side of a hill. That should be much more simple to model. But some insight to a protoype that would work would still be appreciated!

Thanks!

Si.
Moderator


Joined: Thu Feb 23rd, 2012
Location: London
Posts: 5478
Status: 
Offline
Hi Sean.

I can see radius much lower than 18" on this plan.

It's not totaly clear to me if this plan is drawn for On30 or HO.

If it's for On30, then loco & car-length would have to be absolute minimum.

Whether in On30 or HO it looks to me as though some seriously wierd turnout-geometrys have been used...
...my guess, is for it all to fit in 8'x4'...
...custom-trackwork, would be the only option.

It is a neat plan.
But it seems to me, he has simply tried to put too much in the space.

Cheers.

Si.

Shoulders
Registered
 

Joined: Tue Nov 26th, 2013
Location: Kent, United Kingdom
Posts: 537
Status: 
Offline
If its Lilliput its must be to near 009 and then for on30 wold need to be almost doubled if not more I presume.

As Si said great track plan.

cheers Dan

oztrainz
Super Moderator


Joined: Wed Apr 10th, 2013
Location: Unanderra, Australia
Posts: 969
Status: 
Offline
Hi Sean,
Let take the Sawmill first
A basic sawmill would have the following saws
(A) Main saw - (probably a circular saw - may be 2-high
(B) Edger/Slitter saw -
(C) Cut-to-length saw.

At the main saw you need enough length to handle your longest logs on both sides of the saw.
If you need to hold timber in front of the edger, then you may need 2x your longest log downstream of your main saw.


For this plan to work you'll have to work with a dry deck sawmill rather than with one with a log pond. Further thinking about it, perhaps the plant should be flipped 180 degrees - So if the crane was moved to the right hand end of the building, this would put the loading area against the buffers and allow perhaps 2 flatcars to remain spotted for loading while new sawlogs are brought in on your skeleton cars
Here's the flipped version


If you want to see what is inside a steam driven sawmill have a look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIoyPhv6OXQ

Lets talk coal mines next,

Sean W
Registered
 

Joined: Wed Apr 15th, 2015
Location:  
Posts: 91
Status: 
Offline
John, thanks very much for the insight! That will make designing a mill much easier!

What were you thinking for the coal mine?

oztrainz
Super Moderator


Joined: Wed Apr 10th, 2013
Location: Unanderra, Australia
Posts: 969
Status: 
Offline
Hi Sean,
Happy New Year,

The short answer is "it depends"on the size and type of the mine and the method of handling the coal at the surface above the load-out track.

For a small mine like on your plan, a drift mine into the side of the hill on the flat rather than a vertical shaft mine may be a better option. A head frame and winding house can eat a lot of real estate. Even a small shaft mine like the Bartley Mine at http://www.miningartifacts.org/West-Virginia-Mines.html the headframe and winding house are significant sized structures

It looks like the plan has only one load-out point, so the coal will be "run-of-mine' without any sizing being done at the load-out point. Compare the the track arrangement in the plan with

that loads to a different track for different sized coal. You could swing the screens or sizing plant 90 degrees and have separate bins over a single track, but I think the small space available in you plan might rule this out.

Depending on your period, the size of "run of mine" coal will vary from larger lumps with smaller fines through the coal in days of hand mining to a more uniform sized but smaller coal if the coal is being mechanically mined.

If the coal is delivered from the mine by a conveyor belt, then you could model a bin under the end of the conveyor belt. If the coal was delivered to the surface in coal skips, then you would have something like the skip tipples shown at https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/selectdocs.php?index=s&id=566

From your plan it looks like you have enough room on the siding behind the tipple for 2 to 3 coal hoppers. Remember that you also need the same amount of room after they are loaded so that you don't foul your main line track.

Operationally you pick up 3 loaded coal hoppers, shove another 3 empty ones past the tipple for loading, put your train back together on the main line and continue on your way. At the tipple they would use gravity or a car puller to move the empty coal hoppers under the tipple for loading.

Also have a good look at
http://appalachianrailroadmodeling.com/abcs-of-coal-loaders/ and the rest of the Appalachian Railroad Modelling site or to the "Mines" page site at http://www.welshcoalmines.co.uk/index.html for some more inspiration,

oztrainz
Super Moderator


Joined: Wed Apr 10th, 2013
Location: Unanderra, Australia
Posts: 969
Status: 
Offline
Hi Sean,
I found a single track tipple for you at
https://imagebase.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/norfolksouthern/full/nw901.jpg The rest of the 192 photos to do with tipples and railways start at https://imagebase.lib.vt.edu/browse.php?folio_ID=/trans/nss/coal/co&num_rows=192&start_row=1
Enjoy,

Ken C
Registered


Joined: Tue Jun 16th, 2015
Location:  Calgary, Alberta Canada
Posts: 858
Status: 
Online
Sean

Based on the height of trackage, I would guess this layout was planned for N scale. There would be less then
2 inches of clearance where the branch line cross's over the lower mainline track.(upper right end of plan). Although
an interesting plan, I would look at enlarging it for grades and clearance, if done in HO or On30.

Ken C
GWN

Sean W
Registered
 

Joined: Wed Apr 15th, 2015
Location:  
Posts: 91
Status: 
Offline
Ken, The layout was featured in a 1998 issue of Model Railroader with a whole article. It is designed to be an HO layout. That cross over point is a worry to me also. I plan on building up layers of foam to get the desired height for the large trestle on the top right, So if i need to i can make the lower track lower by caving out a channel for the track to go in so it clears. Or make the top tracks grade steeper to give more clearance.

john, What a great picture you found, that one is perfect!

Ken C
Registered


Joined: Tue Jun 16th, 2015
Location:  Calgary, Alberta Canada
Posts: 858
Status: 
Online
Sean

It appears to be that Ian has the wrong grade height's marked, maintaining the 4% grade past the coal mine should place you close to 3&1/2 inches at the trestle approach and
something like 4&1/2 inches at the logging site. This will provide the necessary clearance for the lower tracks.
Lowering the section of layout under the trestle would
enable you to built a trestle taller then 3&1/2 inches across the canyon, this is something I would consider.

Happy modelling of the layout, as it looks like an interesting design.

Ken Clark
GWN

Sean W
Registered
 

Joined: Wed Apr 15th, 2015
Location:  
Posts: 91
Status: 
Offline
Ken,

Thank you for that input! Thats good to know!

I was going to use woodland scenics foam grades to achieve the 4% grade.

I was going to build up the thickness of the layout quite thick with foam. Maybe 8 inches of foam and have the trestle be around 7 inches tall.

Im not sure what kind of problems an 8" thick layout is going to present. I was going to use manual throws for the switches, and only have feeder wires to a few parts of the layout... I cant really foresee and major issues with this plan.

Last edited on Sun Jan 3rd, 2016 06:10 pm by Sean W

jtrain
Registered


Joined: Sun May 27th, 2012
Location: Missoula, Montana USA
Posts: 1003
Status: 
Offline
Probably the simplest loader I can think of for coal is a dump ramp where dump trucks back up a ramp (or hillside) and unload their coal down a ramp and into the waiting train car  For a small space this would work well since all you would need is a section of road and a dump chute to the train tracks.  If you want automated loading, the only way to do so is modeling a small mine, which can be pretty small when you get down to it.

As for the lumber mill, you could model anything from a large complex such as what you would see in the Northwest or you could model a small outfit with one saw in an open-air shed.  The main thing is that the mill itself was in the middle, tracks ran past the mill to the lumber yard to be loaded and tracks stopped short at a staging point for the log cars coming from the woods (usually a small pond or even a bare lot on smaller mills).  It's completely up to you how much machinery you want to include in the lumber mill.  Many small outfits had one or two saws and used horses to drag the logs around the lumber yard, even into the 1930's and 40's.  A friend of my grandfathers was logging his land in Northern Minnesota with a team of draft horses before WWII broke out.  He didn't have a railroad, but it stands to reason a sightly larger operation could have had a spur to the sawmill.

Anyways, good luck on the build, I can't wait to see it completed!

--James:2t:

Sean W
Registered
 

Joined: Wed Apr 15th, 2015
Location:  
Posts: 91
Status: 
Offline
This thread has been wildly successful and I have a much better idea of what the models need to look like. Thanks so much guys!

Si.
Moderator


Joined: Thu Feb 23rd, 2012
Location: London
Posts: 5478
Status: 
Offline
Here's a great little mine prototype idea ! :!:

Perfect for a small space, & BAGS of character !

Check it out ... Here ...

GREAT small-prototype mine !

A fairly easy scratchbuild & kits are available in both 1/4" & HO scales, for not a lot of $$$.

Cheers.

Si.

:moose:


UltraBB 1.172 Copyright © 2007-2016 Data 1 Systems