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Si.
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Just Posted some discussion & ideas for constructing miniature chain-drives :-


HERE


Grandt-Line & similar Delrin(TM) chain-drive components & specs.





Also a 'faux chain-drive' made from machined-brass pulleys & a silicone O-ring.

Suitable for On30 1:35n2 & Gn15.






:!:


Si.



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L:



Bootlegbar
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I got mine from Micro Mark.

I think its the same as Grandt-Line 'Delrin'.

 






Poncho is 1/35.  The truck is 1/34.  Code 100 rail for reference.

The side view is not so bad. I was thinking about making a chain guard to hide how wide it is.



 

Stephen


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A couple more pictures because we all like pictures.

Stephen

pipopak
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The Oldsmobile Toronado had a 2" wide chain in the transmission, so a 3" or even 4" wide for a truck doesn't seem to be out of scale to me.
Jose.

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Here's a site with a closeup of a

1919 Mack AC Stake Truck Chain



Herb Kephart
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pipopak wrote: The Oldsmobile Toronado had a 2" wide chain in the transmission, so a 3" or even 4" wide for a truck doesn't seem to be out of scale to me.
Jose.

Totally different type of chain, Jose. Most folks wouldn't even recognize it as chain at all.

Grease Monkey Herb

Herb Kephart
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Helmut wrote: Here's a site with a closeup of a 1919 Mack AC Stake Truck Chain

AC Macks used #120 chain, 1 1/4" pitch. Pitch is the distance between the pins, just for reference.


Herb

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Here is a car one of my sons has.

A 1917 America-La France fire engine, converted to a "speedster" alla Stutz Bearcat.

1" pitch chain.


Herb


Attachment: ALF5.jpg (Downloaded 171 times)

Herb Kephart
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And here is the one that they are going to carry me off to the municipal dump in.

Herb



Helmut
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Herb Kephart wrote:
AC Macks used #120 chain, 1 1/4" pitch. Pitch is the distance between the pins, just for reference.


It scales out to 0.9mm pitch in 1:35

And that's why all available functional chains are much too coarse for anything smaller than 1:16 scale IMHO.

You could try fusee chains, they sell for mere 35 bucks per foot.


Herb Kephart
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For the nit -pickers. the largest standard roller chain--

ANSI # 240, ISO #48A1,  width-3.760",  pitch - 3",  roller diameter 1.75".  Average strength 141,476  Lbs.  Weight 15.567 Lbs/Ft

This chain is used between the axles of the EBT diesel.
Two 300 HP (on a good day) GM diesels, motor only on one axle.
Think I took a pix, but it is somewhere on film.

This chain is also made (I think on special order) in double width--

ANSI#240-2,  ISO#48A-2,  Width 7.220",  all other dimensions the same.  Average strength  285,292 pounds.  Weight 30.330 Lbs/Ft

When the chain is greasy (and it comes that way, only not as dirty as used) that 15½ Lbs/Ft is more than one man can manage.
Sounds like a little, lifts like ten times that.

I'm going to go out on a limb, and say that 240, even the single row, was never used in the woods.
That single row chain looks like a lot larger than any photos of critters than I have seen.

In the real world
I have had to handle a lot of industrial chain, and that 240 between the axles of the EBT loco evoked a OH GAWD from me.
Something smaller would be more likely.

OK, you in the back row wake up. School is over.

Herb.


Si.
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Hi Stephen, guys :wave:


Thanks for the photos Stephen.

In some of the photos, the chain seems to be very large.

But this is due to the wide-angle camera lens & the fact that it is nearer to the viewer than the figure.

Looking at Stephens 1st photo, where the chain at the figures feet is on it's side...

...it is easy to see, that in fact, it is in reality really quite slender.


Used on a 1:35 model, where partly under bodywork, & only the thin side is mostly seen...

...the chain looks very acceptable. :)


Bearing in mind that eg. 'logging lash-ups' weren't exactly 'factory economy jobs'...

...larger than 'average' chain could easily have been used on such vehicles.

I've seen this chain used in 1:24 scale & it looks very nice 'in context' with the whole model.


In experimenting on the bench, with some of my standard 1:35n2 wheelsets & a vehicle body...

...It certainly looks pretty good to me.

Wide angle camera lenses, 'conceptual' measurement & theory aside...

...this is possibly a nice option for a 'backwoods' buggy in 1:35n2


Although I did look at Fusee chain as my first option...

...since it isn't designed for sprockets really, it is not a great option I don't think.

I did actually find another miniature chain today as well.

It is a very small 'true' metal roller-chain, made of stainless-steel...

...price wise, it is TEN TIMES more £$ than the Delrin(TM) & a few Thou" larger.


The conclusion I've come to...

...is that using the miniature ladder-chain for a 1:35 model would probably look OK.

Certainly there is no operational problem, it works like a dream !


:bg:


Si.

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Fusee chain :-





Some folk are talking about using this ^^ for chain-drives ...  :Crazy:

... can't imagine why ? ... As it is designed to wrap around hubs ^^ NOT sprockets !!  :f:


:shocked:


Si.


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Fusee chain was my first port of call for the Stunted Goose,

but when I saw the prices on eBay, I backed off from that one!


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Irony on:

" It's a pity we don't have those orphanages any more,
the source of cheap labour to make them "

Irony off.

Fusee chains are a classic example of items made by child labour,
the children being sharp-eyed enough to make such delicate structures.


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and now

Last edited on Fri Apr 21st, 2017 01:21 pm by southpier

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While rebuilding a Mazeriti v6 and a Benz diesel we compaired timing chains.

They looked identical so we got a couple of the diesel chains and put them in the v6.

Cheaper than the factory chains and lasted longer.


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Fusee chain is new term to me, so went and looked it up.

"The origin of the fusee is not known.

Many sources erroneously credit clockmaker Jacob Zech of Prague with inventing it around 1525,
but it actually appeared with the first spring driven clocks in the 15th century.

The idea probably did not originate with clockmakers,
since the earliest known example is in a crossbow windlass shown in a 1405 military manuscript.

Drawings from the 15th century by Filippo Brunelleschi and Leonardo da Vinci show fusees.

The earliest existing clock with a fusee, also the earliest spring-powered clock, is the Burgunderuhr (Burgundy clock),
a chamber clock whose iconography suggests that it was made for Phillipe the Good, Duke of Burgundy about 1430,
now in the Germanisches Nationalmuseum.

The earliest definitely dated fusee clock was made by Zech in 1525.
 
The word fusee comes from the French fusée and late Latin fusata, 'spindle full of thread'."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusee_(horology)


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maybe we should start raiding pawn shops for old non-working watches...

Jose.

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it's been done

Last edited on Fri Apr 21st, 2017 01:20 pm by southpier

W C Greene
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Now, those are some "FAR OUT" gears & chains! If I build another whatzit, I will get me some.

Woodie

Si.
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Hi Guys :wave:


I have got some more info on the new stainless-steel roller-chain I found to Post...

...on other 'puter.

The Delrin(TM) chain is still the favorite though IMO.


I thought I may as well Post this pic. of the Tamiya 1:12 motorcycle chain I found as well.

It is probably useless for trains...

...cos like the fusee chain, I don't believe suitable 'train size' sprockets are available for it.

I don't think it can easily be split/joined either.

I guess it MIGHT actually function, but I don't know that either.

Possibly not, since it is obviously an 'aftermarket dressup' for the Tamiya 'static' bikes.

Probably mainly intended to look good.


Damn expensive as well !

Makes fusee chain look like costume jewelry !! :shocked:










I did actually make a Tamiya 1:12 touring bike years ago.

Although 1:12 scale, the model isn't really THAT big.

The driver figure being only 6" tall.

In remembering that bike model, which I no longer have...

...the chain in the above photo ^^ DOES look incredibly small & the bike incredibly detailed.

It looks like the wheels have REAL spokes ! :shocked:

Mmm... my tourer of 30 years ago never had that.


:!:


Si.


Back on the chain-gang with more chain chatter   l  a  t  e  r  .  .  .


Si.
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Harking back to page 1 and the faux chain drive (pulleys and belts)

Here is my WhisperJet drive:





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Bob:

found your drive quite interesting.

Could you post top and bottom view pics?.

TIA.

Jose.


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Sure.
 
It is for a monorail but could probably be adapted to a two rail system.

Like I recently told a potential customer who asked about hill climbing,
"WhisperJet is mainly for speed (and quiet), not for pulling power".

The overall reduction ratio is about 13:1.

The pulleys are 3D printed except for the aluminum motor pulley (Parma slot car part).










boB


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Thanks!.

Now I am having ideas...

Jose.


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ServoCity also sells the Delrin-chain and sprockets.

I used some for a work project and found the chain links have to be carefully inspected,
some have burrs or molding flash that keeps them from operating smoothly.

One item of interest is their servo sprockets, could be used for a nice slow speed drive.


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Hi all,

Be very very afraid....Jose is having ideas


FYI - A size comparison, the larger-sized Tamiya ladder chain in their Educational range

http://www.tamiya.com/english/products/70142chain_sprocket/index.htm

(as used for the under-track haulage on the Corrimal Incline)


and the Servo-Link chain (as used for the drag chain elevating conveyor on Corrimal)

http://servolink.com/sprocks.htm

for information on this smaller chain.





The elevating conveyor has yet to make an appearance here on the Corrimal thread,

but it can be seen in test run mode at

https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=ciV-aSDPkfM

and the Tamiya ladder chain with 10 mm diameter magnets attached to a link.





Just another 2 chain drive options that are known to work.


Si.
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Hi John :wave:


Thanks for the pix. :bg:


I'm guessing that the large Tamiya chain is made of Delrin(TM).


How did you fix the magnets to it ?


I haven't tried gluing Delrin(TM) ...


... except maybe some small Grandt-Line parts, years ago.


Got any advice ?


:bg:


Si.


Bob ... The monorails look AWESOME !


Gonna have to ask you a couple of questions on your drive ...


... l a t e r

oztrainz
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Hi all

The smaller Servo-Link chain is acetyl and the larger Tamiya chain is Delrin or similar.
Both can be glued but there as some provisos...
So far the best results have been obtained with 2 part super-glues.
These have a primer and the glue.

BUT...

The bond is brittle and any sharp sideways impact will shear the bond.
In a straight pull situation the bond appears to be OK. 
The results obtained with solvent type glues for styrene were disappointing.
The 2 contact adhesives we tried were unsuccessful. 

BTW - if you try to glue anything to chains like these,
ensure that you de-point your sprockets so that you don't push off the bit that you have glued to the chain.
We learned this one the hard way.


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Back to belt drive:

I have sold about 12 belt drive chassis and complete conversions in the past year, all of these are 2 stage reduction.
They run at a high speed (about 1 foot per second) and while low speed operation is OK it is probably not good enough for a train.
I originally looked at 3 stage reduction but shelved it due to complexity.

Well, now after a year of designs it does not look that difficult so I un-shelved it and am about to order 3D prints to make it work.
I know there is a long way from drawings to a working train so this is probably not the final version but it looks good.

Final drive is dual belts for improved power capacity.
My typical motor is a R.C. car motor so that would be replaced with something milder.





Si.
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The Patented Davidson Chain.


Used on some New Zealand 'Bush Tramway' locomotives.





Devised by George Davidson and patented.

The chain was so made that all loadings were not carried on the pivot pins, but by shoulders machined into the links.

In the original chain, sprocket wheels used were of the flat or single disc type with teeth at every link (i.e. on a pitch of 4).

It was necessary to adapt the chain for use on the bush lokeys so that misalignment could be accepted.

So the sprocket wheels were a double-flanged type with the chain run between them,

and the teeth protruding from the bottom of the groove into every second link (i.e. on a pitch of 8).



:brill:


Si.
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Another potentially interesting chain, not mentioned before, is this 0.1475" pitch one :-





It has a roller-pitch slightly larger than the 0.1227" pitch 'Delrin'(TM) type already mentioned.  L:

The sizes are really quite similar, but in fact this ^^ one is a tad bigger. 



It is precision made, out of stainless-steel & is FANTASTICALLY expensive !

You can find it on the Net, by searching for it's pitch, of 0.1475"

It seems to be 1 of 2 different sizes of tough stainless-steel chains ...

... for large-scale professional R.C. racing motorcycles.  :shocked:



It might be of interest to someone with a large-scale loco, who needs TOUGH !  :mex:




:dt:



:!:



Si.


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:pimp:

Anyone overly concerned that their model chain-drive attempt might just be a tad over-scale ... :shocked:





... needn't worry 'too much'  ;)  about it by the looks of things !  :P



:doh:



Si.


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pipopak wrote: The Oldsmobile Toronado had a 2" wide chain in the transmission,

so a 3" or even 4" wide for a truck doesn't seem to be out of scale to me.


The Toro/Eldo chain looked like an US V8 style timing chain, only much larger.
A rather crude, stamped steel affair. 

I threw it going down the straightaway of our local race track... 
Chain shattered all over the place, together with the transmission oil....

What a mess! 


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I used a pair of miniature plastic drive chains,

to power and animate the boom,

of a remotely controlled Lionel 6-29839 O-Gauge Cherry Picker.


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Hello Bob

What plastic chains did you use for your RC project?

Rob  :)



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The plastic chain and gears were purchased from MicroMark.

Si.
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" I would have liked to try the Hiroboy motorcycle chain "


Hi Tom  :wave:



If you want something that is designed to operate, as opposed to a 'dummy' chain ...  ???

... as far as I could tell, after DAYS of research, the Delrin(TM) chain is the ONLY real option.



It is also the only realistic option, as far as getting usable 'sprockets' to mate with it.

There is no such thing as a 'Fusee-chain' sprocket, as they don't exist ...  :us:

... & 'Hiroboy' don't offer usable sprockets, other than huge motorcycle style 'chain-rings'.  :f:



'Tamiya' do offer a very $$$ expensive 1:12 stainless-steel motorcycle 'genuine' roller-chain.

But same as the non-operating 'Hiroboy', don't offer usable sprockets, other than huge 'chain-rings'.





'Rolls Royce' $4!7 though I'm sure & it would have to be, at 10x the cost of Delrin(TM) !!





:brill:

I ended up, after all that, with some of the Delrin(TM) link-chain & smallest 8-tooth sprockets.

The intended use being, a just about acceptable attempt at this, in 1:35n2 scale.





With 'Grandt Line', 'Servo Link', 'Micro Mark' (all the same stuff, as far as we could tell) ...

... the appearance of the Delrin(TM) chain is WAY bigger than what the photo ^^ shows.



But I considered that the 'fun & funkyness factor' meant RIVET COUNTERS need not apply !

Having said all that, about 'prototype' chains being of 'Supermodel slenderness' ! ...





... No one seemed to tell this ol' B&W Victorian racing-driver !  :slow:





The 8-tooth Delrin(TM) sprockets ^^ I ended up with (1/8" & 3mm bore are available) ...

... are intended to be fitted onto 're-axled' 14.1mm dia. 'Hornby' HO/OO coach wheelsets.


Here are the 8-tooth sprockets, for a sense of size ... Quite BIG !  :shocked:





& the smallest 'Grandt Line', 'Servo Link', 'Micro Mark' (all the same stuff, as far as we could tell) chain.










The first RIVET COUNTER to dare say it's OVERSCALE ...

... will find  M.M.M.M.M.& M.Co.  doing a 'chain strength test' ... Around their NECK !!  :w:


Even more interesting stuff about CHAIN DRIVE ! can be found here :-

CHAIN-DRIVE ! - Components & Ideas For Miniature Drive Systems



:java: :moose: :dt:



Si.


Si.
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3 more Posts, copied over, from Toms  'Diesel Shay' Thread  in the 'On30' Forum.  L:  L: L:

Which may be helpful for 'Chain-Drive folks' in the future.  :old dude:



- - - - - - -



" Si.

Thank you for all the helpful info and for sharing your opinion on the chain options. 

I received the 'fusee chain' today and realized right away it wouldn’t serve my needs. 
As you said, no place for a sprocket since it’s really only one side of a chain,
and the one I got was so stiff it could never be operational in the way I want. 

Looking at the 'Hiroboy' website I did see one bike that had a smaller rear sprocket,
but even that looked like it would be huge for my Shay. 

So, yes, I crossed my fingers and ordered the Delrin chain from 'Micromark'. 
From your pictures it looks beefy but that’s what I want, at least to a certain degree. 

For this project my biggest concern is dismantling the crankshaft. 
Not real sure how to go about it but I’m sure a little research will turn up a technique.

Planning to replace the crankshaft with a straight shaft and mount one of the sprockets there. 
Another small sprocket will be mounted further up near the frame, out of sight,
so the gear driven wheels will be driving the chain. 

Tom "



- - - - - - -



" Si.

Your photo of the Delrin chain sprocket next to the wood ruler,
shows me the outside diameter is about 3/8” (0.375”). 

I held calipers up against my transfer case,
and that size sprocket would look good in its place. 

I think this chain is going to work OK. 

When I ordered the chain from 'Micromark',
I also ordered the extra sprocket package.

Should give me enough to work something out. 

I think the chain will look beefy in 1:48 scale,
which is what I want.

Tom "



- - - - - - -



Hi Tom  :wave:



Yes 3/8" dia. is about right, for the 8-tooth sprocket ...  L:

... & cos the teeth penetrate most of the way through the chain ...
... the overall dia. of 'sprocket + chain' isn't that much more than that (sort of).  :old dude:





For my use, you could say I see the chain 'side-on' primarily ...

... for your use, you could say you see it 'front-on' primarily.  :)


In your case 0.162" ^^ equaling 4.11mm wide ...

... which helps me visualize it, as I have loads of 4.1mm drill-bits knockin' about !  :)

So 1:1 size in 1:48 scale On30 ...  :brill:

... makes the chain  7 3/4"  wide.





Now the B&W Victorian racing-drivers chain, seen here ^^ at an oblique angle ...

... looks about the same width as his head !  :shocked:


I'm not going to argue about that being around 7 3/4" wide ! ...
... you know how much brains these racing-drivers have to fit in there !!  :dope:



If anyone can come up with a photo, of a 'sensible' locomotive chain, bigger than ^^ this ...

... I'll personally offer 1 years FREE Membership to Freerails, as a top prize !  :P



BTW ... I found a place on eBay in the U.K. that sells the Delrin(TM) chain by the inch ...

... & also sells any quantity of any size sprocket or bore required, very reasonably priced.  :cool:

So perhaps there may well be a similar supplier on U.S.A. eBay doing the same thing.



:java: :moose: :dt:



Si.


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Grant Morrell in New Zealand uses the Tamiya motorcycle chain,

for his On30 chain driven, Olly Smith rail tractors, like the twin cab above.


A local manufacturer makes brass sprockets for this chain.


Cor V
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https://www.ebay.nl/itm/Delrin-Chain-Sprocket-Drive-System-for-4mm-7mm-16mm-7-8-Scales-S-O-SM32-45mm-G/161623046587?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Another link.

Don't know if this one was already mentioned.


Cor



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