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Wagon wheelbase O scale
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 Posted: Sun Sep 10th, 2017 12:52 pm
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Si.
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Hi George :wave:



You said the curves are 1 Meter DIAMETER.

Did you actually mean 1 Meter RADIUS ?

L:

As Kitbash says, keeping a single axle bogies axle 'square' to the rails ...

... is in my view a big problem !


It seems to me that in doing so, a cars center of gravity, is gonna be WAY to one side ...

... & potentially 'toppleingly' unstable !!

:shocked:

Perhaps this is why I've NEVER seen such a prototype car.

A pair of universal, the world over, trucks, is obviously the 'standard' answer here.

:us:

When you said long wheelbase 4-wheeler ...

... I thought perhaps it might be eg. 6" long, NOT 12" !

:)

A good question might be ...

... what's the longest std. gauge 4-wheeler prototype you can find ?

If your scale is 1:48, I doubt any 1:1 prototype 4-wheeler is anywhere near 48 feet long !!

Even if it was, it's even more unlikely to have to negotiate super-tight curves.

???

I think any model needs to be engineered, 'more or less', like the prototype ...

... simply because the prototype has been made to operate properly.

:mex:

I pursued an idea a time back, for a 'whacky' slotcar steering & suspension system.

I was even convinced for a while that it might even work.

Guess what ?

It didn't !!



:moose:



Si.



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' Mysterious Moose Mountain ' - 1:35n2 - pt.II
http://www.freerails.com/view_topic.php?id=7318&forum_id=17&page=1

' M:R:W Motor Speedway !!! ' - 1:32 Slotcar Racing Layout
http://www.slotforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=59295&st=0&a
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 Posted: Sun Sep 10th, 2017 04:14 pm
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Helmut
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Si. wrote:
, I doubt any 1:1 prototype 4-wheeler is anywhere near 48 feet long !!

Even if it was, it's even more unlikely to have to negotiate super-tight curves.


Well, have a look here on page#3 Of course, this car will not easily negotiate curves of less than 75m(!) radius -which would scale out to 5feet in 1:48.
It has self-steering axles and the maximum train speed is >100km/h

Last edited on Sun Sep 10th, 2017 04:17 pm by Helmut



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 Posted: Sun Sep 10th, 2017 04:45 pm
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W C Greene
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I'm glad that I don't run 2 axle cars! Too much "engineering" and besides, I love "double truckers" anyway. As for 4 axles VS sharp curves (at least in narrow gauge) the little Gilpin Tramway and my fave, the SCPA&M, had 4 axle ore cars and others and many of the curves were 50' and 65' radius...in 1:48 scale, that's 12.5" for the 50 footer!
George, link & pin couplers were "outlawed" in common carrier railroads right after the turn of the 20th century but many industrial and private rr's used them to the end. Two that come to mind were the Monson RR in Maine, a 2 footer with l&p's until it closed in 1941 and out in California, the West Side Lumber Co. (and some others) used them as late as 1960-I know because I was there in 1961 and many of the cars had them and the locos had slotted knuckle couplers so they could hook up with the older cars. Very interesting. But now, this is perhaps a "US thing", I'm not familiar with what was used across the pond.

Woodie



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 Posted: Sun Sep 10th, 2017 08:31 pm
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Salada
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My scratch built 8' and 9' wheelbase, 4 wheeled, two rigid axle wagons will "fairly" easily traverse 22.5" radius complex trackwork that is actually less than 20" right at the apex of the curve through the common crossing (frog). There is some REAL flange squeal and anything above about a scale 8-10mph would be impossible. Mr Woodie is quite correct, the couplings are the real problem. I use scale 3 link hook & chain couplings but I have had to slightly increase the link lengths to get around tight curves. I also use my own system of fully independent axle suspension, none of this modeller's "compensation" funny stuff - which is nothing like how the real thing works on 2 axle freight wagons - though I doubt if this makes any difference to the minimum radius capability.

My short wheelbase, 12' spread over 3 rigid axles, six wheeled heavy freight brake (caboose) vans need a minimum 28"-30" radius, even with their Salada Wagon Works patent central axle design.

I have some long rigid wheelbase (18') 2 axle, 4 wheeled bolster/rail wagons that need a minimum 30"+ radius in trials on another layout.

Keep your axles square and parallel and dead level. Don't increase track gauge on tight curves, that leads to even more problems later on. I work in Imperial O Gauge, 43.5:1 standard gauge, all wagons totally scratch built other than wheels and axle box castings.

8' wheelbase, 8/10 ton coal wagon on 20" radius pointwork :



Yeah, I know its upside down, beyond my computer skills to manipulate an FR Gallery photo.

Hope this helps you.       Regards,   Michael 

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 Posted: Sun Sep 10th, 2017 09:13 pm
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Si.
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Hi George :wave:



I dunno about Helmuts 'euro-wagon' example ? L:

Might have been designed by a QANGO in Brussels ! ;)


But ...


Saladas modeling from his time on the International Space Station, is peerless. :shocked:

His anti-gravity braking system & Zero-G coal loading techniques, are both pioneering research. :brill:



:moose:



Si.



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' Mysterious Moose Mountain ' - 1:35n2 - pt.II
http://www.freerails.com/view_topic.php?id=7318&forum_id=17&page=1

' M:R:W Motor Speedway !!! ' - 1:32 Slotcar Racing Layout
http://www.slotforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=59295&st=0&a
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 Posted: Sun Sep 10th, 2017 09:56 pm
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Helmut
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Well,
those eschewing the Continentals may easily mix up Swiss entrepreneurship with Brussel sprouts. Transwaggon is a Swiss firm for 52 years!



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 Posted: Sun Sep 10th, 2017 10:50 pm
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Salada
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Si. wrote:

L:

As Kitbash says, keeping a single axle bogies axle 'square' to the rails ...

... is in my view a big problem !


It seems to me that in doing so, a cars center of gravity, is gonna be WAY to one side ...

... & potentially 'toppleingly' unstable !!

:shocked:

Perhaps this is why I've NEVER seen such a prototype car.

A pair of universal, the world over, trucks, is obviously the 'standard' answer here. "
                                        xxxxxxxx
 
Axles must ALWAYS be square to the railhead across the rails otherwise disaster awaits at any facing point trackwork, guard rail, etc. A proper functioning suspension system, preferably fully independent like the real thing, will cope with any variation in railhead height across the tracks but still keep all flange faces square to the railhead. But there is no cure for rigid 2 axle X/S wheelbase where the squareness of the flange faces grinds the flanges against the inner railhead face.
 
My test for all scratchbuilt 2 axle, 4 wheel model stock is that ONE wheel must stand on an Imperial 5 penny coin (.067") without raising the wheel on the opposite end of the same axle and whilst the other 3 wheels sit flat on a flat test bed. Any fail has to go back to The Works. In practice in both prototype and model scales the CG should never lie outside the track radius CL, excluding perhaps some 'mini-pizzas' so toppling over is not a problem. 

Si, wagons like Helmuts are in use in various countries, we even had/have some here but I haven't seen one for ages. I had a photo of a similar SG Italian wagon but the FR Gallery has mysteriously eaten it (my pics went haywire during/after THE Big Crash at FR - now all in completely random order with many "disappearances")(NOT your fault !).

Photo of an FDC (Italy) NG wagon that I guess cannot be less than 18'-19' long over the couplers on about a ? 10'-11' wheelbase. Some weird Euro gauge about 850/860 cms (whatever they were post EU) with fairly tight curves (the track, not the Italian lady passengers) :




IMAGE DELETED




Oops, photo has a credit but I'm sure I took one identical (not noticed until after posting - maybe that's why it's from the FAL system and not the FDC)

Regards,   Michael
  

Last edited on Sun Sep 10th, 2017 11:44 pm by

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 Posted: Sun Sep 10th, 2017 11:34 pm
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Salada
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Si. wrote:
His anti-gravity braking system & Zero-G coal loading techniques, are both pioneering research. :brill:

You've been taking a sneak look at the Salada Wagon Works' experimental Dept again.

Be afraid, VERY afraid !!!

Regards,   Michael

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 Posted: Sun Sep 10th, 2017 11:37 pm
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Si.
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" NOT your fault ! "



Hi Michael :wave:



Correct-a-mundo !

I don't break stuff ... I fix stuff.

I guess I will continue to hear about it, until I am in my grave though !! :y:



The 'Freerails Gallery' BTW, cannot possibly turn photos upside-down in a million years.

If your photos have become 'jumbled', I am amazed, cos no one else has ever reported this.

Indexing of some Threads was affected ... ( BEFORE my time of course, I just mopped up after )

... but the Members Gallery, other than yours it seems, was untouched. L:



I guess I could take early retirement. :old dude:



:P



Si.



After all it's not that awful.
You know what the fellow said,

in Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias,
they had warfare, terror, murder & bloodshed,
but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci & the Renaissance.

In Switzerland, they had brotherly love,
they had five hundred years of democracy & peace,
and what did that produce ?

The cuckoo clock.

So long Holly.



____________________

' Mysterious Moose Mountain ' - 1:35n2 - pt.II
http://www.freerails.com/view_topic.php?id=7318&forum_id=17&page=1

' M:R:W Motor Speedway !!! ' - 1:32 Slotcar Racing Layout
http://www.slotforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=59295&st=0&a
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 Posted: Mon Sep 11th, 2017 06:32 am
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George Ruthven
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Thk you all - great info.

Maybe I only need 1" more - I'll know as soon as the Lipo's arrive

In the meantime I'll experiment:Crazy:



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