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Bernd
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Ok, so after hearing about the supply problems of Deltang and getting product from them I decided to try out the 'FlySky' that Si. suggested in his post on the Tam Valley thread.

I've got the the Tx and Rx. I also ordered an ESC from E-bay. Still awaiting for the battery and battery charger.

So, a question for Si. The ESC came without any instructions and I can't seem to find any on the Net by Googling. The questions are, what do the two switches do? One is on the circuit board, the other is wired in. The two red and black wires with the red connectors, which is which? I'm figuring one is for the battery, the other for the motor. So, is the female plug for the battery or the motor?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Bernd

Si.
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Hi Bernd :wave:



I am actually messing about with those parts at the moment.

Including removing the 'FlySky' receivers plastic casing.



They need to fit in a Porter tender, under construction at present.





But before trimming any wires, or changing any connectors ...

... I decided that a 'spaghetti bench test' would be wise.



The 2 pairs of red & black wires emerging from the E.S.C. for the battery & motor are ...

... cable-plug is for the battery ...

... cable-socket is for the motor.



The 3-way white/red/black wires emerging from the E.S.C ...

... should be connected to the 'FlySky' receivers Channel-2, observing correct polarity.



The single pair of red/red wires emerging from the E.S.C. ...

... terminates in a cable mounted general on/off switch.



I actually don't know what the switch on the P.C.B. is for.

But it MAY be an on/off switch for a 'brake' function.

Which if true, will have little effect for trains on either setting.



When the stuff is wired on the bench, I'll flip it and see !



:!:



Si.



The battery & motor connectors will both be discarded, as they are quite large.

I might use the on/off switch perhaps.

The 3-way white/red/black cable-socket, may get cut off & wires soldered directly to the receiver.



At £3.84p inc. P&P for the 'Flysky' receiver ...

... & only £2.54p inc. P&P for the E.S.C. ...

... experimentation is a low-cost risk !





Si.
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There is some more about the 'FlySky' and E.S.C. here :-



Dr. StrangeLiPo ... or How I Learned To Stop Worrying & Love The Battery !
The Rent Went Up On My 5th Avenue Penthouse ...
... So I Had To R.C. My Model-Power Plymouth For £15 Quid !



:brill:



Si.






W C Greene
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Si, glad to see that this thread is about wiring the board...I first thought that somebody was trying to sell the damn thing here in which case I would need to fire up the "delete topic" key.

You gots some 'splainin to do Lucy!
WCG

Michael M
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I've got all the 'FlySky' parts needed to convert my Bachmann Shay except for one thing ... a round tuit.

Maybe you'll get some more converts on BPRC the inexpensive way.

Bob D
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Amazon here in the states has the Tx/Rx for $29, A Hobbywing ESC goes for $21, both with free shipping.

Bernd
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Michael M wrote: I've got all the parts needed to convert my Bachmann Shay except for one thing...a round tuit.

Maybe you'll get some more converts on BPRC the inexpensive way.

First for Michael M a Round Tuit.




When I was on a machining forum I used to say that I'd get a round to it so much one of the members cast a Round Tuit in aluminum for me.

Bernd

Bernd
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Si. wrote:Hi Bernd :wave:



I am actually messing about with those parts at the moment.

Including removing the 'FlySky' receivers plastic casing.

Same here. Still waiting for the batteries. I'm installing one in an HO old Blue Box Atheran F7 A & B. The battery pack is a N/MHi 6 volt battery pack.

Thanks for the answer to what wires are what, I knew the three wires go to the receiver. Was confused as to the other two with the cable plug and socket. I figured that the switches are as you say. Just needed to confirm that. Thanks. Going to do the same with the connectors.

One thing that doesn't seem clear is the binding plug. On the pdf instruction sheet on this system it shows the binding plug plugged into where the battery power should be plugged into. What's your take on that?

Bernd

Si.
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 " Amazon here in the states has the Tx/Rx for $29, A Hobbywing ESC goes for $21, both with free shipping."



Hi Guys :wave:



Just to let you know how much I spent on my R.C. kit :- L:



'FlySky' FS-GT2E Transmitter & receiver twin-pack - eBay $20 inc. P&P

'FlySky' additional receivers only - eBay $5 inc. P&P

E.S.C. 10-Amps. - eBay $3 inc. P&P



So you can get the basic TX. RX. & ESC. parts all in for about $23 inc. P&P :shocked:



Just add the battery of YOUR choice, mine I think were a couple of 380mA LiPos at about a Buck fifty a piece on eBay inc. P&P

A 6-port LiPo battery charger cost me another $1.25 inc. P&P on eBay.

Plus I also bought a high quality and efficient 9-Volt 'step-up regulator' two for $1 inc. P&P



No overdraft or VISA card meltdown was experienced by this R.C. customer. :cool:



:old dude:



Si.



P.S. For those who simply just can't separate the 2 concepts of 'cheap' & 'high-quality' ...

... just think of the blood-pressure lowering word 'affordable' ! ;)



This is a mega-mooodern 2.4 GHz transmitter/receiver specification ...

... with full frequency-hopping technology, for essentially ZERO interference ... EVER ! :shocked:



The transmitter is a very nice build quality as well. :)

Smooth 'quality feel' mechanism, both forwards & backwards.

The 'ergonomics' of the design, is just about PERFECT.

EASY one handed operation, making coupling/uncoupling an absolute BREEZE ...

... without having to put the transmitter down, or use both hands to hold & operate it.








Measurements of the principle R.C. install components HERE :-

Dimensions Of The 'FlySky' Receiver, E.S.C. & Regulator














:!:

W C Greene
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The system looks OK to me but that "Capt. Kirk" phase pistol needs some fixin'. My buddy Dave and I just got a couple of old analog 27MHZ 2 stick transmitters (just what we wanted) on fleabay for $30 for the pair. Somebody had taken the battery contacts out and figured that "he" would scam a couple of old dudes. We installed Li-Po batteries in them and they both work like "burnin' hell". I was ready to build a new case for my old car transmitter but this satisfied me! (I must be really old for a transmitter to satisfy me...or crazy!)

Woodie

Bernd
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W C Greene wrote: The system looks OK to me but that "Capt. Kirk" phase pistol needs some fixin'.

Woodie

Going to change that "Phaser" to something that will resemble the type of throttles we're used to using. L:   :brill:

Bernd

Si.
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It is of course the 'pot. in a box' approach, from Train-Sets that " we're used to using "

But why ?

Well, yes, it was easy enough, back in the day, to just bung a wirewound pot. in a box ...

... MUST be the right way to do it. :P



Bear in mind single handed operation for a 'walkaround' at all costs. L:

You won't regret it !

In fact WHY turn an innovative ergonomic dream, into a 'pot. in a box' at all ?



Oh IT IS a 'pot. in a box' Jim, but not as we know it !





NOT a 'pot. in a box'.

Mysterious Moose Mountains recent S.C.R throttle handset build.

NICE !



:moose:



Si.

Helmut
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As for 'Captain Kirk' style transmitters, you start with this:


and after a bit of tinkering:

Last edited on Fri Nov 10th, 2017 08:55 pm by Helmut

Nortonville Phil
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Hello All, 

I too was inspired by Si's 'FlySky' info on the Tam Valley thread.  I already had TX and RX so I just ordered a 10amp ESC of Ebay.  It arrived from China a few days ago and looks just like the one you guys ordered but it came with instructions.  I hooked it all up on the bench on Friday and it works great.  I will now be back in the RC business.  I plan to put this in an Oscale switcher. Oh and the ESC was cheap only 4 dollars? And the TX and RX I have a friend gave me.

That is not much money to get going in RC.

Bernd
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Phil,

If I understand this right the Receiver works at 3 to 6 volts and you O scale engine probably has a 12 volt motor, correct? What voltage battery are you going to use?

Any chance you could copy and post the instructions of the receiver?

Bernd

Nortonville Phil
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Bernd,
The receiver I already had.  The ESC I bought outputs a constant 5v to run the receiver or at least that is what I have been told by my friend that is a airplane guy. The ESC I have is similar but different than the Flysky. I am using 3 cell batteries. 

Si.
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" I too was inspired by Si's 'FlySky' info "

" I hooked it all up on the bench on Friday and it works great."



Hi Phil :wave:



AWESOME ! :bg:

I'm sure that rig will suit your new garden O-scale line a treat !! :cool:

Certainly can't argue with the price. :thumb:



:)



Si.



Yes, the E.S.C. provides the Receivers 5-Volts, through its 3-wire 0.1" cable-socket connection.

That particular 'small red' E.S.C.s maximum operating Voltage, is said to be 8.4 Volts.

I'm sure 9 Volts or thereabouts is probably OK.



If you happen to have a 9 Volt regulator like I do ...

... you could drop 1/2 a Volt with a appropriate diode if needed.



1 cell LiPo + a 9 Volt step-up regulator will work.

2 cell LiPo giving 7.4 Volts sans regulator will also work.



Good luck on the install Phil. :!:

Sounds  C:cool::cool:L


:)





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W C Greene wrote: The system looks OK to me but that "Capt. Kirk" phase pistol needs some fixin'. ... I just got a couple of old analog 27MHZ 2 stick transmitters (just what we wanted).
Hi Woodie,
that's how I modified the sticks a bit to have a reliable 'OFF' position plus two functions ( like lights )

Attachment: 1900Jamara001.jpg (Downloaded 82 times)

Nortonville Phil
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Hi Si,
I hooked up my 3 cell lipo to my ESC and have tested it.  I realized yesterday that my ESC is supposed to only be for a 2 cell battery.  It still seems to work though.  I don't know if I will burn it up if I continue to mess with it.  I guess I need to get a 2 cell battery.
I have been reading on here about these dc dc converters to step up the power.  I have been searching for info on the forum about these.  But still have questions.  If I use a 12v step  up Pololu with a 2 cell battery I guess that means that I can now very the voltage up to 12v?  Is there more info on these you can point me towards.  Thanks.

Rod Hutchinson
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If the ESC has a max voltage then that is the max you can step up to.  The step converters go from Battery to Stepup to ESC in that order.
You would be best to use an ESC capable of voltage you wish to run it on.

Si.
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Hi Phil :wave:



Although MOST of our models, whatever the scale, are designed to operate on 12 Volts ...

... MOST of them will run like the 'Bullet Train' with the full amount of juice ! :shocked:

So.

In my opinion stepping-up to 12 Volts, in many cases, is not really needed.



For my stuff at least, everything I am likely to want to R.C. ...

... should run fine between 7.4 to 9.0 Volts maximum.

Giving respectively, the option of 2-LiPos & no regulator, OR 1-LiPo & a 9 Volt 'step-up regulator'.


L:


On your 3-cell battery situation Phil. :brill:

I bought two E.S.C.s, both the smallest & cheapest I could get on eBay, at about 3-4 Bucks a pop inc. P&P.

Of course there are LOADS of others available as well, very cheap also, just often a tad bigger in physical size.



The reason your E.S.C. hasn't BLOWN-UP  :shocked:  yet with an 11.1 Volt 3-cell battery ...

... is probably because it may well have sufficient overhead not to do so.

Having said that, as with ALL electronics, higher heat = shorter life.

But we COULD be talking about 100s to 1000s of hours of OK life here.



There are TWO things of consideration here :-

The 5-Volt regulator which is built into the E.S.C only has to power it's own small circuit + the receiver.

Both of which require minimal power, there are not even loads of servos connected to the receiver.

Cos it ain't having to deal with an overly high-current draw, it can probably stand the 11.1 Volt input.



The 2nd thing is that since the 4 big power-chips on the back of the E.S.C. are designed for 10 Amps ...

... and your load is way, way lower than that for sure, they are likely to survive 11.1 Volts also.



If that E.S.C. was $50 Bucks worth of kit, my shorts would have changed colour by now !

But personally I can afford another £2.54p inc. P&P if I blow mine up !!

So as Clint Eastwood said ...

... " Do you feel lucky punk ? " :w:



:)



Si.



There are LOADS of DC-DC 'step-up regulators' on eBay, just as good & way, way cheaper than 'Pololu'.

There are tons of fixed voltages to choose from & also adjustable ones.



The main criteria for choice being ...

... How much current it needs to deal with & if it's corresponding physical size is OK for the install.



I am wondering at the moment on my install whether to use one or not.

Seems to me though, that unless you absolutely have no room available & simply MUST use a 1-cell LiPo ...

... a 2-cell LiPo stetup, sans regulator, in my case & probably many other cases, is the way to go generally.


:old dude:





:!:


davecttr
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I use a lot of Pololu regulators, mostly 9V which give good top speeds with most of my locos. If the fully loaded loco draws about 300mA or less you can use a single 3.7V lipo with conversion efficiencies of 80% or better. If you need more than 9V or the loco draws more than about 300mA go for a 7.4V 2S lipo which can have conversion efficiencies of 90%

If you want to consist a couple of locos a regulator is needed to give a consistent voltage as lipos have a output ranging from a freshly charged 4.2V to a depleted 3V, obviously making speed matching difficult.

Last edited on Mon Nov 13th, 2017 08:30 pm by davecttr

bobquincy
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@Si
"There are LOADS of DC-DC 'step-up regulators' on eBay, just as good & way, way cheaper than 'Pololu'."

We have to be careful about these converters.  I bought some nice ones from company "A" and they worked well but a sudden overload (stalled motor) smoked them.  Their technical person said the inductor gets saturated and can destroy the switches, adding that there is no way to protect against this.

Company "P"'s converters just shut down in similar situations and recover after the load is reduced to zero and started up again.

Ymmv, as always,

boB

Si.
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These are the 'step-up regulators' I bought from Company 'C'






DC-DC 'step-up regulator' 9 Volt output.







DC-DC 'step-up regulator' variable Voltage.



Phil, the ones I bought were for smallish 16.5mm gauge projects.

I'm guessing if you use a regulator, which I don't think you need to, it would need to be a bit bigger.

2-cell operation, sans regulator, is probably your ideal option.



I believe most of the 'regulator guys' have small locos & are using them with 1-cell batteries, due to limited space.

I chose the highest current available, before the PCB size became too big.

Somewhat of a guessing game perhaps, but the specs. are mostly all in the eBay listings.

At about $0.50c per board inc. P&P, I aint gonna argue too much about the fine-print !



Most modern regulator semiconductor devices have built in protection for any number of things ...

... including over-current, short-circuit etc.

These are all simple pieces of electronics squirted out of the same sausage-machine in China.

The expensive ones at 10x the price come with a nice 'logo' on ...

... & probably an expensive 12 month all inclusive money back guarantee.

If mine blows up, I'll just have to cough up another $0.50c for a new one.



:!:



Si.

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As I found, the converters are not all the same and the electronics are not all protected. I don't mind the $0.50 if one blows up, it's the taking the model apart to replace it that gets annoying.
I sell models with these converters buried inside and really do not want one frying in a customer's model, then I have to repair it *and* feel like I should pay postage both ways as well.

I decide to use the components I know will work, so far I have had no complaints!

Helmut
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Pololu seems to have the smallest footprint for 9V@300mA. There are some Chinese boards around, albeit a tad larger. I have used the 9V-stepup+supercap in a TT-scale loco, a battery may even be smaller depending on the capacity. You may distribute two or more of them wired in parallel, in the shell where convenient.

Si.
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" A question about these low cost alternatives. Are there any small enough to fit in 00 scale locos and leave room for the batteries? "



Hi Dave :wave:



There are a TON of these lil' boards on eBay around $0.50c a go.

They all use the same basic technology & chips/inductors etc.

There are some incredibly teeeny-weeny ones about if one looks.



Bob mentioned being worried about the good-value for money regulators blowing-up !

Some details in a photo from Helmuts link ^^ above.





This one is made by 'Canton Power', logo like a 'copyright-symbol'.

They pretty much make 'em all !





My ones I posted on the last << Page are also made by 'Canton Power' using the same parts.

They look incredibly easy to solder to, with nice holes/pads & plenty of tinning on the PCB.



:)



Si.

W C Greene
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Si, are these ESC/Receivers and do they have PROPORTIONAL SPEED CONTROL forward & reverse?

Woodie

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I checked online Woodie and they are voltage regulators. I should have been clearer with my original question. I was thinking of the receiver and ESC.

Si.
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" Si, are these ESC/Receivers and do they have PROPORTIONAL SPEED CONTROL forward & reverse? "



Howdy Woodie :cb:



NO they aren't, and NO they don't.



:f::f::f::f::f:



Si.



;)

Si.
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Hi Guys :wave:



Sorry, I thought you meant the DC-DC 'step-up regulators'.

Oh well, some useful info there ^ for someone anyhow perhaps.



I have some sizes measured from my components ...

... I'll Post something about the size of all these parts later.



Dimensions Of 'FlySky' Receiver, E.S.C. & Regulator



:!:



Si.

Bernd
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Time to get this thread back on track. (pun intended)

I finally have all the electronic products together. I didn't realize you need two power supplies to power the ESC and the receiver. I used the battery pack from All-Batteries, a 6 volt 1600mAh Ni/Mh pack for the receiver and a 6 volt D cell battery holder to temporarily power the ESC. I discovered that the switch with the wires on the receiver is an on/off power switch. This makes the switch soldered to the circuit board the "brake on/off" switch. I didn't see any difference in the motor with it in the on or off postion. Also hard to tell what is on and what is off. No instructions comes with the Chinese receiver.

Here's a pic of all the equipment.



And a pic of the (from left to right) Receiver, battery pack & ESC. It's sitting on an Atheran F7-B unit frame. It'll all fits in the shell.



Next I'll need to modify the F7-A unit. I've removed the Atheran 12 volt motor and will be replacing it with two 6 volt motors driving a "ModelTorque Automatic Torque-control Coupling".


Bernd

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@Bernd 'methinks' that you have overlooked the ESC's built-in BEC. So you need only a battery for the ESC, and the receiver's supply is established when you plug it in. Saves you one battery set.

Last edited on Wed Nov 15th, 2017 07:38 pm by Helmut

Si.
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" I didn't realize you need two power supplies to power the ESC and the receiver."



You don't.

As Helmut says, the receivers 5-Volt power supply is derived from the E.S.C.s 'B.E.C' ...

... 'Battery Elimination Circuit' ...

... when the white/red/black 3-way cable from the E.S.C. is connected to the 'FlySky' receiver.

ALWAYS connect this to Channel-2 on the receiver !





IF the receiver was used with say a glider or sailboat, where there is NO motor used or E.S.C needed ...

... then a separate P.S.U. would be required for the 'FlySky' receiver ...

... which should be connected, in this case, to the dedicated P.S.U connectors on the receiver.



The switch on the E.S.C.s 'flying-leads' is indeed the on/off switch ( see my Post on Page-1 ).

Full E.S.C. Wiring Details For Battery Motor ON/OFF Brake & Receiver

The 'brake' function is only going to be noticeable on R.C. cars.



:!:



Si.

Bernd
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The post never mentioned where to plug the battery in. I assumed it needed to be plugged into the Receiver and not the ESC. So yes, it works when you plug the battery into the ESC.

Bernd

Si.
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" The post never mentioned where to plug the battery in.

I assumed it needed to be plugged into the Receiver and not the ESC."


- - - - - - -


From my original Post No.2 on Page-1 :-



The 2 pairs of red & black wires emerging from the E.S.C. for the battery & motor are ...

... cable-plug is for the battery ...

... cable-socket is for the motor.



The 3-way white/red/black wires emerging from the E.S.C ...

... should be connected to the 'FlySky' receivers Channel-2, observing correct polarity.



The single pair of red/red wires emerging from the E.S.C. ...

... terminates in a cable mounted general on/off switch.



:old dude:



Si.

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Bernd,

Thanks for posting those photos.  Keep them coming as I'd like to see how everything comes together.

Bernd
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Si,

No where in your post do mention that the battery needs to only plug into only the ESC and not into the receiver. You may have thought it but you did't put it down in words.

Bernd

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Micheal,

I try to make everything clear and understandable with pictures. Leaves little to be assumed. More to come as I progress.

Bernd

Si.
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" No where in your post do mention that the battery needs to only plug into only the ESC and not into the receiver."



Yeah ... Why would I ?

In direct response to your Post-1 question ...

... My Post-2 VERY CLEARLY explains to you PRECISELY which connector the battery DOES plug into.

Why on Earth ? would I waffle on, describing loads of things, which it DOESN'T plug into ?




" You may have thought it but you did't put it down in words."



WHAT ?

I haven't "thought" any such thing !

My instructions explain what DOES need to be done, NOT what DOESN'T !


If you bother to spend some time & read them properly ...

... they simply & concisely describe a bench-test of ALL the required connected components.

Battery ... Motor ... Receiver & connection ... on/off switch.


:brill:


Here they are AGAIN :-



But before trimming any wires, or changing any connectors ...

... I decided that a 'spaghetti bench test' would be wise.



The 2 pairs of red & black wires emerging from the E.S.C. for the battery & motor are ...

... cable-plug is for the battery ...

... cable-socket is for the motor.



The 3-way white/red/black wires emerging from the E.S.C ...

... should be connected to the 'FlySky' receivers Channel-2, observing correct polarity.



The single pair of red/red wires emerging from the E.S.C. ...

... terminates in a cable mounted general on/off switch.



I actually don't know what the switch on the P.C.B. is for.

But it MAY be an on/off switch for a 'brake' function.

Which if true, will have little effect for trains on either setting.



When the stuff is wired on the bench, I'll flip it and see !





- - - - - - -


I fail to see how any clearer or more concise directions could be written.

Those few lines & paragraphs actually took some considerable time to write !

Certainly not one liners, full of typos etc. bashed out in seconds.

Likewise all the follow on information I have Posted regarding E.S.C. Voltages & regulators etc.

EFFORT has been put in here to both describe & illustrate things as well as is possible.



I guess I understand now why automobile manuals always say ...

... DON'T PUT WATER IN THE GAS TANK ! :dope:



:Crazy:



Si.

Bernd
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Really?

Why on Earth ? would I waffle on, describing loads of things, which it DOESN'T plug into ?

28 lines later, two pictures and 3 Emoticons you end with :Crazy:

Now that's crazy. A simple post like, "You don't use the plug on the receiver. You use the plug on the ESC. It has a BEC." Takes a lot less 28 lines. Perhaps I don't speak the Queens English and understand what your saying.

Bernd

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34 lines later

1 picture

&

3 emoticons ... in fact.



" Now that's crazy. A simple post like, "You don't use the plug on the receiver. You use the plug on the ESC. It has a BEC." Takes a lot less 28 lines."



Not crazy in the least.

As I have already said, WHY STATE WHAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO CONNECT ?

Like don't connect your Mains A.C. supply directly to your rails perhaps ??



If you're going to criticize my Posts for essentially a lack of clarity ...

... then, for sure, the original Post is gonna get quoted to show otherwise !

It was all said, clear as a bell, done & dusted, at the end of Post-2 !!

READ IT !
 


" Perhaps I don't speak the Queens English and understand what your saying."



I think you just need to spend a moment or two reading what has been laboured over for your benefit.

28 lines & 2 pictures ??

Mmm  .  .  .



L:


Si.

Helmut
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Can we please go back to the question what total space such a conventional R/C system will use in total? Neither do I speak the Queen's English but I perfectly understood what Si has written. It was concise enough. Finally, one is only responsible for what one writes, not for what others lack in understanding.

Last edited on Fri Nov 17th, 2017 01:45 pm by Helmut

Helmut
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Do you ever consider how ridiculously short the travels of trigger and steering wheel are? I cannot see how one can sensibly control the speed range of a loco from switching crawl to full speed. You move your finger just a bit and the vehicle sets off like a rocket. That gun-type controller is nothing for me!

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I presume you would have to remove the innards and put them in another container. Is that hairline trigger controlling a pot? If so a substitute pot would be needed?

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I have done exactly this, but one also can retain the wheel+pot, replace the trigger+pot with a resistor ladder, change the inner mechanics a bit -all in all not  too tedious a task once you know the ropes. I've converted quite a few gun-type controls this way. Maybe I describe it some time. The photo I've posted a bit earlier in #17 shows the conversion of the gun, and by just using the innards, to a familiar handheld I've made.

Last edited on Sun Nov 19th, 2017 03:34 pm by Helmut

George Ruthven
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Helmut,
I would love to do the same with my 3 remotes - any chance of some photos and a description pse? As a mech eng I just don't have the courage to even open the remotes although as you know I'am tackling more and more electronic stuff as the months go by.

I just completed the bridge and motor on the Lionel unit and it's running with a slight
hesitation. I notice fine sparking between the brushes and remember what you said - I'll investigate and clean again.

My little grandson does tend to start off too fast either with the round knob or the stick and we have subsequent derailments but he is learning - the springs are too strong. It's ironic that I speeded up the one Lima coach with a 4000rpm motor only to increase the derailment because of his inability to counter the spring action. 

I think your modification is the answer.

Bernd
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Got the system together and tried a 6 volt motor. As far as I'm concerned this system is a piece of crap. The motor control is almost none existent. The ESC turns the motor on at about 2.8 volts. The motor buzzes and the red LED flashes on ESC. At 4 volts everything smooth's out. Motor is running at almost full speed. Max voltage from the ESC is 5.1 volts. The controlling pot on the Tx is way to sensitive to minuet motor speed adjustments.



This system is going to the trash can. Glad it was cheap. Sticking with the Deltang system. Expensive is better than cheap. It keeps the frustration level low.



Now I know a couple of you guys are going down play all this and say you have no problems with your system. If it's close to the Fly-Sky and it works post what you did to it to make it work better.



Bernd

Last edited on Tue Nov 28th, 2017 02:43 pm by Bernd

Helmut
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@Bernd
That's what I said in #58. You can use that system, but you have to alter the TX quite a bit to make it railroadworthy. The ~1000Hz switching frequency of most of the ESC's available for cars can be quite annoying, too. I did quite a bit of adaption to RR purpses using that sort of system, and have written a lengthy article about it in another forum. It's all in German, and I don't feel inclined to translate it. Wait for our resident boffin to report after he - some day - got his R/C working in a loco.
( The Queen, although English, would never use that term, BTW )

Addendum:
No wonder that with 1000Hz, many iron-core motors do not respond well and low rpm is well nigh impossible. For our purposes, an ESC working @50..200Hz is still the best choice. Those cheap ESCs are made for car-racing and not for switching speeds.

Last edited on Tue Nov 28th, 2017 05:28 pm by Helmut

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" I too was inspired by Si's 'FlySky' info on the Tam Valley thread.
I already had TX and RX so I just ordered a 10amp ESC of Ebay.
It arrived from China a few days ago and looks just like the one you guys ordered but it came with instructions.

I hooked it all up on the bench on Friday and it works great.
 
Phil.


- - - - - - -


Seems like Phil got all his parts wired together properly & is good to go. :thumb:

George has also used the same E.S.C. I believe, with a different Transmitter & Receiver. :bg:

It's fairly obvious to say as well, that these components have been used by 1000s of other R.C. fans as well.



It's not hard to see in the Freerails R.C.Forum ...

... that there seems to be a massive vested interest, in slagging off affordable R.C. options.

It's hard to actually Post anything positive about such possibilities ...

... without them being straight away swamped by barrages of negativity on all fronts.

Sad really.



I'm guessing that the difference between huge ancient, possibly clapped-out, motors ...

... and something with a little more finesse could easily be a consideration.

But of course it's easy to blame anything but, what can sometimes be an obvious problem. :f:



Carry on slagging off anyone who dares to do different in whatever way they do. :old dude:

Keep filling up the piggy-banks for that R.C. system, that costs more than the loco !



Meantime, R.C.ers thinking 'outside the box', go with it ! ;)

If it's working for you guys ...

... which it seems to be ... :cool:

... stick with it !



:)



Si.  

Helmut
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Now I get fed up with that sort of gabblehonk by a moderator.
1. How many locos have you, Si, converted to R/C using all available different  components that are available on the market? My count is 20 so far, ranging from G scale to TT.
2. Have you ever tested the motor behavoiour in relation to the PWM frequency? This is especially important when you use stock motors in models you want to convert.
3. Have you ever adopted that shotgun stuff to manageable ranges of knob turn and control sensivity?
 If not, refrain from judging others' experiences with all sorts of RC gear before you haven't shown some of your own work here!

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" Now I get fed up with that sort of gabblehonk by a moderator."



Since WHEN ? has being a Freerails Moderator got ANYTHING to do with anything ?

Last time I looked, I was still permitted to say what I wish.

The vast majority of which, is ALWAYS very positive !!



I have a POSITIVE attitude to peoples experimentation with R.C. methods.

When I see Members in the Forum SUCCEEDING as well ...

... it just makes me wonder what all the 'can't do' & "this system is a piece of crap" attitude is all about ?



Gabblehonk, I'm sure to most people, could be the language of so called experience ...

... largely un-deciphered by the 'low-end' experimenters I follow ...

... who seem to amazingly get trains moving without it !



I don't need to " refrain from judging others' experiences with all sorts of RC gear "

Since I DON'T JUDGE IT !

Show me exactly WHERE ? I have anything to say, other than about what MY experiments are ??



There really is a ton of B.S. & dis-information flying around in the R.C. Forum.

Having said that, as before ...

... there are people skirting around it, doing things differently, and making things work !



Si.

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Now boys...settle down. There's room for everybody here and feelings shouldn't be an issue. It doesn't matter how much you spend or what you have, all that matters is if you are happy with what you accomplish.
I don't post much these days, seems that nobody wants to see my tired old lokies with r/c car boards. But while I ain't posting, I am building and operating and having fun. When I got into this, r/c car boards were THE ONLY things that were available to do what I wanted.
And some might remember that the reason Freerails has a nice r/c forum is because yours truly badgered and howled at the listowners until they set this up. Otherwise, there wouldn't be an r/c forum. Warts and all, this is still the best and the most on the internet.
So, chill out and run a (r/c) train today!

Woodie

Bernd
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That's what I said in #58.
Yes you did. Unfortunately I didn't listen. It was an interesting experiment anyway.

Phil is using a 10amp versus my 30amp. Could that be the difference.  Or is it the frequency of the ESC? Also need to question whether Phil hooked a motor to his ESC. Lacking a bit of info there. I'm sure Si will fill the space with useless chatter before we get some semblance of an answer, if we get one at all.

Either way I'm done with that junk equipment.

Bernd

Helmut
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@Bernd
current rating is not a criterion. There's another aspect which is essential for RR operation - the minimum duty cycle an ESC will offer. The cheap ones are intended for the car/ boat racing market where you do not need the slow starting speeds a loco does. Then there's the motor characteristics, such as its own starting voltage. It is not uncommon for a 6V motor to start at 2V. The average customer doesn't tolerate a dead band in the beginning, he wants immediate action once the trigger is pulled. So it is very likely that when you plot R/C channel pulse length vs. duty cycle, you see an offset of the ESC , that is a minimum duty cycle >0% ( which would be the ideal theoretical value ). To test this, one must use a servo tester where you can vary the channel pulse length with a reasonable high resolution. If you connect the ESC to it, you can determine that minimum duty cycle (= starting voltage ). Only ESC's with a low offset are really useful for model RR purposes, if you can tolerate the PWM noise. As Bob laid out, you still may have a jump-start phenomenon that can only be overcome when you use rather low-frequency PWM, something you don't find in the Chinese ESCs. This is logical as they aim at a completely different market demand.

Last edited on Wed Nov 29th, 2017 11:04 am by Helmut

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Hi all,
after some consideration I finally decided to show how to convert that FlySky 2-channel car TX/RX into something sensible for loco operation. As you buy cheap, you must be prepared for some tinkering and butchering. It is not that straightforward a system you can employ as someone here wants to make believe, at least if you want a decent control sensitivity and range. You have to replace that noisy cheap car ESC as well if you want something that doesn't torture your ears up to midrange speeds. Let's concentrate on the TX/RX system first. I bought mine some years ago, but as the innards are FlySky, I don't think they changed the electronics. My housing looks differnet, but that's a minor issue. First, here's what you see once you undo the screws and open it:

Attachment: Conrad9.jpg (Downloaded 86 times)

Last edited on Thu Nov 30th, 2017 08:19 pm by Helmut

Bernd
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You have my attention.

Inside  of yours looks close to the one I have.

Bernd

Last edited on Thu Nov 30th, 2017 09:26 pm by Bernd

Helmut
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The steering knob, which will be used for speed control later, can rotate by 90°. A steam loco's throttle has the same swing. Direction will be changed by a toggle switch. So that's pretty close to prototype, and one can live with that.
In another conversion, I just used the electronics ( see my picture in #17 ) in a flat housing where you have that 270° turn.

Helmut
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Next step is to make the mechanical changes. The "TH" (speed trigger ) pot has to be removed. The "ST" (steering) pot's centering spring has to go, too. First, you take out the TH pot:

Pull the plug out of its socket and undo the two screws that hold it. It is set aside for later use.
Then there's the ST pot which will become the throttle. Remove the center screw in the wheeel and pry it off the pot's axle. Then remove the three screws in the housing, unplug that, too and pull it out.

That lever and its spring have to be removed. As soon as you remove the spring the lever will follow and free the pot's movement to some 300°. We will not be able to use that, however, because its inner workings are such that there is only a useable travel of some 90°.

(Here is an inset I forgot)
The potentiometer will be used to set speed from 0% to 100% for its full 90° swing. Therefore, its electrical circuit has to be adapted to that prerequisite.
To understand this, one has to see how a channel pulse is used in an ESC. The channel pulse's 'neutral' duration is 1.5msec. Full forward is assigned to an 1.8msec, and full reverse to an 0.8msec duration. The 'ST' pot's respective positions are middle( halfway), full CW, and full CCW. Its nominal value is 5 kOhms in most cases, so that corresponds to 2.5k, 5k, and 0 ohms. The input is seeing 2.5, 5, and 0 Volts.
So in this application, the swing from 0% to 100% has to be translated into 2.5V --> 5V,(forward) and 2.5V-->0V (reverse).
The schematic shows how that is done:


I chose these values to arrive at roughly the same resistance value as before, but it will work when on just replaces the 2k2 resistor with one of the same valuie as the pot, and omit 3k9. Anyway, here it shows how it is done:
First you cut the PCB strip leading to the black wire's terminal:


Then you solder the resistors in place (I chose 1% types just to be sure ):


( End of inset)

The pot is to be mounted again, and the knob will get a friction pad, so that it will keep its position easily:


I used a self-adhesive felt pad they sell to protect the floor from chair marks.
More later.

Last edited on Fri Dec 1st, 2017 09:09 pm by Helmut

George Ruthven
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Thks Helmut, you've made my weekend:bow:

Bernd
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Helmut,
Excellent step by step.
If I understand the values right of the resistors, they are 2000 ohm and a 3000 ohm or are they 2200 ohm and 3900 ohm?
Bernd 

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@Bernd
The resistors are 3900(3k9) & 2200(2k2) Ohms 1%. You can also use just a 5100(5k1) Ohms 1% in place of the 2k2 and leave the 3k9 out.
All this is true only when the pot is 5000 (5k) Ohms! If in doubt, check with a multimeter.

Bernd
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Helmut wrote: @Bernd

The resistors are 3900(3k9) & 2200(2k2) Ohms 1%. You can also use just a 5100(5k1) Ohms 1% in place of the 2k2 and leave the 3k9 out.
All this is true only when the pot is 5000 (5k) Ohms! If in doubt, check with a multimeter.


That's what I thought. Just wanted to check to be sure I was right. Thank you. I did check the pots and they are 5K ohm. Also states they are 5k on the back side.

Bernd

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Bernd wrote: 
Phil is using a 10amp versus my 30amp. Could that be the difference.  Or is it the frequency of the ESC? Also need to question whether Phil hooked a motor to his ESC. Lacking a bit of info there. I'm sure Si will fill the space with useless chatter before we get some semblance of an answer, if we get one at all.

Either way I'm done with that junk equipment.

Bernd


Guys,

I have not put my equipment in a loco yet.
I have only tested it with a 24 volt Pitman gear head motor.
It may not have great control modulation. 

But like you say Bernd a good experiment.

1110171804 by Homewood Wheelman, on Flickr

Helmut
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Hi all,
here's a quick and dirty solution for doubling the control swing and having a positive zero position where one can throw the direction switch. In the FlySky, there will be an elegant way to that with less components, the sketch here shows how to do it in the not-so-sophisticated TX's where there is no channel inversion provided.

The colour of the center conductor may differ, but red and black are IMHO standard.

Last edited on Sun Dec 3rd, 2017 09:52 pm by Helmut

Helmut
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The FlySky TX has  adjustments for trim and slide-switches to invert the channel signal, i. e. throttle pulled in 'norm' is 100% FW, in 'rev' its 100% REV. They sit under a cover and yes, it looks different from mine. But they are labeled. We use that possibility to wire the direction switch with less circuitry.
In 'norm' position, an imput of the control processor is pulled to ground, whereas in 'rev' it is left open. So one just has to solder two wires to the 'ST' switch and run them to the new direction switch in the housing. The 'ST' switch is left in 'rev' position, so that the input is controlled by the direction switch now.
What it does is that in 'FW' you run up from 1.5 to ~2msec, and from 1.5 to ~1msec in 'REV', all with the 'ST' input seeing 2.5 to 5V.
First, one has to provide a direction switch. I chose a slide-switch, because it can be mounted the easy way when one has two halves of a case.

Admittedly not the best photo I've made,but the principle can be seen.




Once that is in place and the two halves fit together, on just needs to run two wires from the 'ST' switch to the contacts that are closed in the 'FW' ( right hand side for me ) position.


Now you can look for some decent blackened cylinder-head screws to fasten your direction switch once the halves are joined.


Last edited on Tue Dec 5th, 2017 11:59 am by Helmut

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Now if you have put back the 'ST' pot, and the battery case, you can start with the first trials. Even with that car ESC, you should be able to experience a finer control range as before. Oh, lest I forget - the ESC has to be put in Ch#2 now IIRC.

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Ok, I'll give that a try next time I get enthused about doing some electronics work. Thanks for the SBS. Very helpful.
Bernd

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Remember I've set aside that 'TH' pot?. It will be discarded and there will be pushbuttons to control some 4 functions instead. First I'll show the schematics, the real thing will follow.

This arrangement will render 5 different voltages: neutral - 2.5V, f1 - 5V, f2 - 3.4V, f3 - 1.6V, f4 - 0.4V.
Here it shows what the built-in conversion made of it for my TX:

The neutral pulse of 1.5msec is not shown.
The idea is to use these different pulselengths to trigger functions. One can go for up to 10 such functions in one channel and have them reliably detected. Of course that's microcontroller business. What you can get is devices that take the longest (full) and shortest (minimum) channel pulses to switch one or more outputs, but then you have to repeatedly move your paddle and not lose count for the different functions you want. I made a 4-channel discriminator with an ATTiny13 and a ULN2803, that is rather small and satisfied my needs so far.

Last edited on Wed Dec 6th, 2017 12:33 pm by Helmut

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Wow Helmut you really dug into this. Thanks for posting all the work you've done. Going to have to get the RC back out of the box and give it a try.



Bernd

Last edited on Wed Dec 6th, 2017 02:31 pm by Bernd

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Some more food for thought ...

The schematics of the 4-function module.

And a photo of the prototype ( Didn't bother to make a PCB yet ).



The ULN2803 is a tiny SMD sitting directly on the copper pads underneath.
I used two imputs / outputs in parallel as they fit on the 0.1" spacing then.


Attachment: 5180_081434_470000000.jpg (Downloaded 6 times)

George Ruthven
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Helmut,
will you also pse show the conversion of the remote into one's own box as per your example. (and what happens to the batteries?).
George

Last edited on Sun Dec 10th, 2017 09:48 am by George Ruthven

Helmut
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I've shown the schematics for the pushbuttons,

here is sample of how they are mounted onto the TX's housing:



You need a 14mm hole (or 9/16") to make it snug-fit.

Now I think it is clear why I showed two 2-pin connectors going into a 4-pin,

because there are 2 PB's on each side.


George Ruthven
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Thks Helmut:Salute:

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@George
Mind you, this is just the hardware - you need software to program the switching module.  I'll pack that all into a .zip-file and load it up ( one of these days;)).
In a nutshell, the switch module must be able to adapt itself to the TX's pulselengths, and be told whether to toggle a function output or keep it momentary.
The flat-box adaptation is much more complicated ( not so if FlySky have done away with 9.6..12V supply voltage requirement in the meantime ) and only doable for the advanced electronics buff.

Anybody read of Si's implementation of the FlySky in his loco?

Bernd
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Helmut wrote:
Anybody read of Si's implementation of the FlySky in his loco?









Did he ever finish it. I did see thread about it and that's what got me to buy a Fly-Sky.



 

Also I haven't seen him on in several days. What he do, take his toys and go home? 




 

Bernd



Last edited on Mon Dec 11th, 2017 09:03 pm by Bernd

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Maybe he's busy to make up for lost time in RC conversion....

Helmut
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For those interested in that four-channel switch, here's the hex-code for an ATTiny13:
When the jumper is set, the unit is in learning mode and will determine the neutral pulse length once it is switched on and the TX and RX are working. The LED will come on as soon that is done. Then one depresses the F1..F4 buttons shortly, followed by a 1sec acknowledge of the LED, or longer till the LED starts to blink. So that function is either a momentary output or a permanent (toggling) one. Once the four functions are determined, pull the jumper and the unit is ready to operate.

Lest I forget -Happy New Year to everybody!
Now have to go to the yard and and steam up my loco, the boys want to go for a ride with fireworks and replica guns and what not...

Attachment: RC_Kanalschalter.zip (Downloaded 4 times)

Last edited on Sun Dec 31st, 2017 01:37 pm by Helmut

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Si. wrote:



Hi Bernd :wave:



I am actually messing about with those parts at the moment.

Including removing the 'FlySky' receivers plastic casing.



They need to fit in a Porter tender, under construction at present.





But before trimming any wires, or changing any connectors ...

... I decided that a 'spaghetti bench test' would be wise.



The 2 pairs of red & black wires emerging from the E.S.C. for the battery & motor are ...

... cable-plug is for the battery ...

... cable-socket is for the motor.



The 3-way white/red/black wires emerging from the E.S.C ...

... should be connected to the 'FlySky' receivers Channel-2, observing correct polarity.



The single pair of red/red wires emerging from the E.S.C. ...

... terminates in a cable mounted general on/off switch.



I actually don't know what the switch on the P.C.B. is for.

But it MAY be an on/off switch for a 'brake' function.

Which if true, will have little effect for trains on either setting.



When the stuff is wired on the bench, I'll flip it and see !



:!:



Si.



The battery & motor connectors will both be discarded, as they are quite large.

I might use the on/off switch perhaps.

The 3-way white/red/black cable-socket, may get cut off & wires soldered directly to the receiver.



At £3.84p inc. P&P for the 'Flysky' receiver ...

... & only £2.54p inc. P&P for the E.S.C. ...

... experimentation is a low-cost risk !







Okay.  ESC plugged into channel 2.  Battery to plug; motor to socket.  As soon as I plug in the battery the loco takes off.

What did I do wrong?

Michael M
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Joined: Thu Jan 26th, 2017
Location: San Bernardino, California USA
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Darn.  Had the plug and socket backwards.  Oops. :doh:

Swapped things around and now it works fine.

Actually a very simple installation.  And for about $25-30 for everything needed not a bad price (cheaper than most DCC decoders).


Helmut
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Joined: Sun Feb 17th, 2013
Location: Friedberg, Germany
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To be fair you don't have any extras, like directional lights. But still - you don't need a CU and track wiring if you go BPRC!


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