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Alan Sewell
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I have just joined Freerails after some prompting from member Reg Hearn.
So thought I would give a heads up on who I am what do I model.

So I am Alan Sewell, married with three grown and flown children and live in Hertford UK about 20 miles north of London.
I have been semi-retired for the past five years but still do some work as an accountant/ consultant to a transport museum.
My modelling, and railfan, experience goes back to the mid-1960’s when I visited the slate quarries in North Wales, and then other industrial railroads in the UK and Europe and got hooked on this type of operation.

This using UK equipment was never satisfactory, but then I discovered North American prototypes and especially logging/short line railroads and HO scale equipment.
I have now been building my home logging empire, Andrews Lumber Co in various forms for over thirty years.
This is now an HO-scale freelance standard-gauge logging and forest products railroad, based on the operations, equipment etc. used by the Simpson Timber Co and the Weyerhaeuser Co in western Washington.

I have assumed that the company operates a large sawmill and pulp mill on the north bank of the Columbia River, a few miles downstream from Longview WA.
A logging railroad runs from this into the coastal mountains, in area in which the Long-Bell and Crown Zellerbach companies ran railroad logging operations until the 1950's.
The mill's finished products are shipped out on the company's own shortline, interchanging with the BN/NP, MILW & UP mainline from Seattle to Portland at Longview Junction.

In the real world, Andrews Lumber Corporation exists in a 14 x 12 conversion to our loft.
Trackwork is largely complete and most scenery complete in the mill area.
I can operate in what I hope is a prototypical manner using Lenz DCC.
This is presently in a late 50’s early 60’s timeframe using mainly first generation diesels, but with some steam hanging on in log spur/work train roles.

The main headquarters camp and the shortline/Class I railroad junction are still in the plywood pacific stage as I had to them  tear down to do some re-working but I hope to get back to scenery during the next year.
I also intend to run more modern operations (say 1970-now) as well and have alternative Andrews Forest Products units to work this.

I guess this is not the usual “rolling rust bucket" narrow gauge logging layout, but I am interested (my wife might say obsessed) with building and operating in a prototypical manner and collecting information is important.
I have been to the Pacific Northwest on four occasions in 1989/1999 and 2007/2015 visiting Simpson at Shelton, Weyerhaeuser at Longview and Klamath Falls and the Western Forest Products Englewood railroad on Vancouver Island as well as a number of smaller operations.

These visits have helped me understand how logging railroads operated, as well as giving the perspective which you get from seeing the real thing.
A big bonus was spending some time with John Henderson and following this with almost weekly e-mails.
His death left a big hole in the knowledge of logging and I lost a friend as well.

I know Reg has posted some recent photos of my modelling and I will hope to share progress or not with the group.
Hope this is of interest and I will be able to contribute in the future.

Best wishes
Alan


Si.
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Hi Alan :wave:



Good to see you Posting here on Freerails. :)

I borrowed this  C :cool: :cool: L   photo, which Reg Posted, of Alans railroad. :thumb:





Trains, logging, dozers, junkque ... What more could one want ? ! :bg:

Perhaps Alan can explain  .  .  . L:



:moose:



Si.


Alan Sewell
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The photo is a general view of part of the HO-scale mill yard at "Jennis" WA.

Mill switcher Alco S-2 #111 and caboose are at the railroad dispatcher’s office,
and Hartford & Cowlitz FM H10-44 D-2 sits on the engine house lead.

The two tracks next to the Alco are the empty yard (Creek Yard).

In the background is the dry lumber shed with the lumber mill off to the left.

Fuel oil/diesel and water tanks are on the edge of Jennis Creek.

Part of the woods diesel is lurking behind the oil tank.

Hope that makes sense.

Alan


W C Greene
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Howdy Alan and welcome to Freerails. On another post, we were talking about the apparent lack of modern standard gauge logging layouts...and you have built a nice one. Please send more photos, we love photos!

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What Woodie said.....more photos please.

ohh, and welcome to the forum.

Peter


Ken C
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Alan

Welcome to the group.

Nice looking layout and concept.
Looking forward to more photos of the layout.

Interesting point about the WFP Englewood operation, is that they also served a mine / mill operation along their line.
Just a added twist to a logging operation.

Ken C
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Lee B
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Alan Sewell wrote:
This is now an HO-scale freelance standard-gauge logging and forest products railroad, based on the operations, equipment etc. used by the Simpson Timber Co and the Weyerhaeuser Co in western Washington.


Alan,
Welcome to the forum!

Sadly, Simpson abandoned their railroad operations out of Shelton not long ago and Weyerhaeuser did the same out of Longview.
I live in this general area, and it's sad to watch the last two logging railroads in the US stop running.





There's a group looking to run trains out of Shelton on Simpson's tracks.
They have some passenger cars stored at Chehalis (on the former Milwaukee Road tracks),
waiting for a time when the Puget Sound and Pacific RR can get them out there.
They have at least one of the SW switchers donated to their effort by the company that owns Simpson.
The roundhouse in Shelton is still there, but probably not for much longer.

http://www.ifiberonenewsradio.com/news/local_news/historic-railroad-museum-project-on-track/article_1fe8a7a4-58f7-11e6-b34b-076f0f9bcbe2.html

And of course, I model a RR on the opposite side of the country!


Alan Sewell
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Yes I know both those operations and was saddened when Simpson closed.
I think there must have been some desire by the Simpson family shareholders to get out.

Weyerhaeueser also seems to have cut back,
although when I visited the mill in 2015 it was still an interesting rail operation but not the woods ops I saw in 1999.

Now I understand WFP at Englewood have closed the railroad so my modelling will be of history for even a "modern" logger.

Best wishes
Alan


Herb Kephart
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Welcome Allen.

Glad to see that you thought enough of us to join up!

And Reg, Thanks for encouraging Allen!

As everyone else has mentioned, we love pictures, even if they are of unfinished projects.

The one thing that we stress is to have fun.

Hope to hear a lot more from you.

Herb


Michael M
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Alan,

Welcome aboard!

There's nothing like visiting the sites that you want to model.
Photos and maps don't always cut it.
Often you need to experience the 'feel' of the area you're trying to re-create.

The California Western between Willits and Fort Bragg is a standard gauge railroad that use to be a logging line.
Now it's there for the tourist trade.
They still have some neat equipment to see including The Skunk.

I hand made a few trees for a past On30 layout using fern for the branches.
It wasn't hard to do, but it was time consuming especially the 18" and 24" tall trees.

Like other have requested please keep the photos coming!


Alan Sewell
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When I joined I posted a few thoughts on my modelling. As that seemed to be of interest I decided to open a new topic where I could share progress or otherwise on my HO scale freelance Andrews forest company rail roads. In case you Ask Andrew is my son, Jennis is from one daughter Jenny and Caroline Meadows Camp for my other daughter
 
Back in 1979 I discovered US modelling and LOGGING railroads. Now here was my sort railroad, with all the right atmosphere interesting equipment and operations. What was more models were available which were appropriate for these railroads, everything didn't need scratch building or kit bashing, and the models ran better than anything I was used to. I had seen the light!
 
By 2011 I had  finally decided on a geographic location for the layout. Having wandered around the state of Washington the layout is now fixed on the north bank of the Columbia a little downstream from Longview. I was drawn to setting my railroad in this area for a number of reasons. Weyerhaeuser and Long Bell built large sawmills and pulp/paper plants here. The Longview Portland and Northern provided switching not only for Long Bell but other industries and there was a connection to the UP/NP/GN & MILW on what is now the “I-5” corridor from Seattle to Portland. I could if I wanted have power from a number of roads working the interchange traffic. My favorite operation for a number of reasons is  Simpson Lumber out of Shelton but I wanted a company owned shortline like the Columbia and Cowlitz and as I said a connection to the Seattle Portland corridor.  The track plan of  the mill area is however based loosely on the yards used by the Simpson Timber Company at Shelton, but VERY much compressed. I have a plan of these yards as they were in the 1950's and in the early 1980's and even compressed this would require a space 30'x 20'! The company “captive shortline” the Hartford & Cowlitz runs from the mythical town of Jennis upstream to Longview. From Jennis the Andrews company logging railroad heads north into the hills arriving at headquarters camp ( Caroline Meadows /Camp 16 ). Again track is down but no scenery as yet
 
Jennis has a sawmill and a pulp mill so traffic is inbound logs/woodchips and chemicals and outbound lumber, plywood and pulp or fibre board. I will post a sketch plan of this later.
I like the diesel locos used on logging railroads and I did not want to model the complications of an actual logging "side" or "landing". Therefore the decision to model the post war period, a decision helped by the photographs and other material I had collected dating from the 1950’s to  now.  The lumber company motive power included both rod and geared logging lokeys  but most I have in reserve or stored awaiting scrapping. I now use  EMD/Alco switchers with one or two steam relegated to an un-modelled branch above camp 16 or occasional work train.  Rolling stock is predominately 40 foot connected log cars (aka skeleton cars ) run in sets of 5-6. In addition there are tank cars, moving cars  ballast hoppers, a number of cabooses and crew and supply cars along with the ubiquitous speeders. The shortline uses a FM 10-44 switcher and has its own caboose. 40- and 50- foot cars are used in interchange service with local roads predominating
 
Operations comprise switching empty and loaded cars around the mill. Three runs per day to the Longview Junction by the shortline loco, which also makes up the outbound train and switches loads from the pulp mill. Two or three locos can be used between the dump and the woods including switching at the Headquarters. Dumping logs at the mill is handled either by the mill switcher or the woods locos dependant on traffic requirements. As I said earlier around 1960 is the time frame of current operations. I am planning for other time frames and have developed a “company history” of its rail operations to inform this, based on events from Simpson/Weyerhaeuser and to a lesser extent Rayonier. If anyone is interested I can post  a copy
 
I was requested to post some more photos  so here are some recent ones. I apologise for the lack of backdrop  but I need to get some photos I took around Longview in 2015 printed and I do take time to do things. It’s more fun sometimes playing with the trains!!!!
 
Alan

 






#1002 switching loaded cars after arrival from the woods with mill switcher #111 waiting for next move.








Lee B
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Great work.

Makes me miss the logging railroads in the area, as I live among all the lines you used for inspiration for your layout...


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Great contribution, Alan.

Welcome to Freerails.


Si.
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Hi Alan :wave:



GREAT to see you got a Thread for your operation ! :)

Nice ^^ photos !!



I could EASILY get into mooodern HO logging ( don't tempt me though ! ) L:

Even have some HO diesels & log-cars. :shocked:



Looks like you got a good space to build in Alan & have been busy ! :thumb:

Keep the pix. & stories coming.



C :cool: :cool: L   subject.



:moose::moose::moose::moose::moose:



Si.


Alan Sewell
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Thanks for the favourable comments so far.
As I said I am posting additional photo.





This shows the mill switcher moving the cut up to the unloader.
This is a Clyde Loggers special I had commissioned.
I am building (or attempting to) a model of the steam unloader used at Shelton.
However the crane or one like it was I think used at Shelton.

I will probably post the track plan next

Best wishes
Alan


Alan Sewell
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As I said I am attaching a sketch plan of the Mill at "Jennis".





This covers an area of around 13x11 feet.

I may add a spur into a plywood mill near the dry shed and also lengthen the chemical spur for the pulp mill sometime during 2018.
But only when I have done more of the scenery

Alan


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Alan

Just as a note of interest, re your chemical track. The type of pulp mill would determine what chemical's would be delivered.

A Sulphite mill would use Liquid Sulpher, Limestone & Chlorine.

A Sulphate mill would use Potash, Limestone & Chlorine.

I spent 3 years working in a Pulp Mill on the North Coast of British Columbia, but that was a long while back (1967-1969)

Ken
GWN

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Alan Sewell wrote: ... and I do take time to do things.
It’s more fun sometimes playing with the trains!!!!


My understanding is that's what they are there for although they sometimes can be a bit of a distraction. :)


Lee B
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You could always model a through track as the Shelton facility was serviced by what was the Northern Pacific, now the Puget Sound & Pacific. Through trains go by there every now and then with 'special' trains holding rocket motors, fuel rods and re-entry vehicles (in other words, nuclear weapons) from the nuclear submarine base at Bangor, WA, north of Shelton. I think there are more actively deployed nuclear weapons just north of there than any other place in the US. It made for an interesting contrast with what normally went on there on the railroad. There were also passenger trains that came in and out of there in the past:




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Lee:
Quite a bit of other traffic goes through Shelton on the PS&P.  In addition to the lumber that goes out of the mill on the Shelton water front, there is the garbage train.
There also used to be rail service to some of the industries north of town, in the Johns Prairie area, served off the marshaling yard east of Johns Prairie.  I don't know if any of those industries are currently using rail service. 
The garbage train is a unit train of containers that transport trash from a transfer site near Belfair to Arlington, Oregon.  Containers full of trash come to Belfair by truck from all over the West Sound area.  
There are also other industries between Shelton and Bangor served by the railroad, including the Bremerton Naval Shipyard, which receives a lot of different kinds of materials and supplies by rail.  
If memory serves, there is a propane dealer in the Silverdale area that receives gas by rail.  I know there is one near Kamilche that does, but that is west of Shelton.  
The PS&P has a history of encouraging businesses that require rail service to locate along their routes.  
The railroad also seems to use some sidings in Shelton to park locomotives.  I frequently see more power parked in Shelton than I do in Elma, the nominal headquarters for the PS&P.  There are almost always four axle units parked in Shelton.  I rarely see four axle units in Elma.  Almost all the power I see west of Shelton is six axle.  
The combination of the Simpson line and the PS&P would make a great layout.  I contemplated it, but I don't really have the space.
Reg

Alan Sewell
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Happy New Year to all – although that seems a LONG while ago.

Apologies for not posting, but have been up and down to Edinburgh Scotland ( a 700 mile round trip from home ),
helping my daughter move and keeping the grandchildren out of the way- a full time job.
However thanks for the recent comments.

My reply on the chemical spur is that the pulp mill was built in the late 1940’s as a market pulp kraft mill.
So chemicals are caustic soda, chorine and sulphuric acid plus some cleaning chemical.
I have only two car spots and use some generic tank cars, but as I said I hope to increase this later in 2018.

I take the point about the run through Shelton to Bremerton as additional traffic,
but I tried to model the track layout at Shelton and could not make it fit.

There are a few Simpson/Shelton features.
The woods track crossing the street to enter the mill.
The engine house and dispatchers office over the creek and near the street.
The dump tracks running through the mill site.
But that is all I could fit.
The short line has more from Longview than Shelton.

In spite of the Christmas/New Year events I have done some work on roughing in the woods camp, as you can see it is not just plywood.
But I am operating it for a while before doing too much scenery.
That should start next month.

Best wishes
Alan





Alan Sewell
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Another view of the plywood version of Camp 16.





Reg H
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Alan:

Great stuff.
Space limitations can always be a bit frustrating.  


Si.
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Hi Alan :wave:


Good idea, running a few ^^ ops. before finalizing Camp-16. L:


Looks pretty good ^^ though.

I'm sure you've got it sorted. :thumb:


Gotta say again ... :old dude:

... HO modern(ish) logging is a great theme to follow.



I like the squat looking water-tower, with the 'logging' style footings.

Your string of camp-cars looks pretty nice as well. :)



Keep it coming Alan.

All the best, from the other side of the concrete-jungle. ;)



:moose:



Si.


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The layout looks fine to me, lots of details to enjoy.

Regards Peter M

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By the way Alan I still exhibit a small layout called Two Sister’s Farm which is 1/32 scale narrow gauge. It is very loosely based on a narrow gauge farm estate railway found on the Lincolnshire Fens in the late 1950’s. At one time there were over fifty small railways on many farms, mostly powered by horse but a couple of the larger operations used small diesels and one even steam.
The model is more what might have been rather than what actually existed. It is a little different to most narrow models by virtue of the various powered vehicles used on the farm. All a bit of fun and not to be taken seriously.
A thread about the layout can be found on this site by searching for Two Sister’s Farm in the narrow gauge section.

Regards Peter M

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Alan, a few films you may enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aSSYBgmNW0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF92TgDuvIw

Kind regards


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Those bring lots of memories for me.  

Two of the Simpson locomotives that were sold are parked in Centralia.
I was unable to get numbers as I was driving by and following someone else.


Alan Sewell
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Thanks Peter for the links to the Simpson videos.
Like Reg they bring back lots of memories.

I find the Simpson Reborn one especially poignant, as the railroad did not last too many years after that.
There is a very good DVD "Our Last Log Hauler" from Golden Rail which covers a happier time.

As a reminder attached is one of my photos taken in 1999 of Simpson's 1200 coming out of Franks transfer with a load of toothpicks.





Reg for your information I think the lokeys at Centralia are 1201 and 1202 per a video I saw on youtube.

For anyone else following this thread I hope to get to the scenery at Camp 16 in the next month or so.

Alan


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Alan:

I have not done a good job of tracking the locomotive numbers and their circumstances.  John Taubeneck probably knows the details.

The museum is plugging along.  They got possession of the turntable and were able to move it out to Mill 5.  They hope to build a pit for it.

I see their big hurdle as being money.   I think they started with the idea that the City of Shelton would throw in some money.   Given the city finances, the current commissioners, and the high risk nature of the venture, that is not going to happen.  

A few months back they had about $1,000 of track supplies stolen.  They had to hit Facebook with a plea for money in order to replace the stolen goods.  If $1,000 is a big hit, they are in a major up hill battle. 

If they are going to get the trackwork back into condition, establish some kind of terminal facilities, and acquire suitable rolling stock they need a couple of big roller donors.  Someone who can contribute millions.   

I think it is a noble venture.  But it is very high risk and I don't have much hope.

Reg

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Reg H wrote:
The combination of the Simpson line and the PS&P would make a great layout.  I contemplated it, but I don't really have the space.
You and me, both, Reg! If I wasn't modeling the ET&WNC during WW2, I might be modeling the PS&P with the Milwaukee Road never having bene abandoned and instead bought out by another carrier, running across it at Rochester like back in the day!


Reg H wrote:
The museum is plugging along.  They got possession of the turntable and were able to move it out to Mill 5.  They hope to build a pit for it.

I see their big hurdle as being money.   I think they started with the idea that the City of Shelton would throw in some money.   Given the city finances, the current commissioners, and the high risk nature of the venture, that is not going to happen. 

I wasn't familiar with how it was going right now. I've talked with Joel Hawthorne several times, who documented the final days at Simpson but it's been a little wile. He's one of the founding members of the museum (and one of the most soft-spoken train buffs I've ever met). They have one of the Simpson locomotives, too, as well as three passenger cars of various vintage, currently being stored right at the site of the old Milwaukee depot in Chehalis. I have no idea where they came from, but they're there right now.
I wish them all the luck in the world, as I sadly think they're going to need it.
I still kick myself that I never went out to chase this, nor the Waerhauser line out of Longview...


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Lee:

Did you know the NP depot in Hoquiam still stands?  It looks nice too.

I gotta get over there and get a photo.

Reg


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Reg H wrote:
Did you know the NP depot in Hoquiam still stands?  It looks nice too.

Yes, I was over there about a month ago (was looking for the steam locomotive being restored nearby but their building was closed):

http://www.graysharbortalk.com/2015/02/15/historic-polson-logging-locomotive-return-harbor/

The old depot houses the licensing office in town now.
If the Shelton operation ever gets to running trains, I wonder if anyone's thought to make a grab for that shay on display downtown to get it running?


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Lee:

You must be referring to the little prairie type that the Polson Museum is working on.  

It would be nice to see "Tollie" under steam and pulling folks around.  That would be a super major project.  Pete Replinger personally cut large holes in the bottom of the boiler. 

I have not talked to Joel Hawthorne.  I am kind of avoiding being too vocal about my interest.  I have way too much on my plate to get involved in this project and I could very easily get sucked in. 

I am also up to my neck in Shelton politics at the moment, which are very ugly.   Though I support what the museum is trying to do, I am, quite vocally, opposed to the City contributing any monetary support.  The museum is just one of the political footballs being kicked around town. So I am probably persona non grata among the active museum supporters. 

My friend, John Henderson, had an intense interest in the Simpson operation.  Indeed, some of my first railfan excursions with John, in the 1970's, involved trips to Shelton.  Had I known then that someday I would live in Shelton, I could have turned, while standing near the intersection of 12th and Railroad, and looked at the house in which I would eventually live.  But at that time I was living in the Ballard area of Seattle (as was John) and working at Seattle Pacific University.

I was executor for John's will.  Right now my memory is failing me.  John's photos and research (extensive) went to either Oso Publishing or John Taubeneck.  I will email John T. and see if all that went to him.  But I think he is in touch with Pete Replinger, so anything he (John T.) has would be known to the museum.  

Reg

Alan Sewell
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I can offer the attached, taken on Railroad Avenue, in I think 1989.





Alan

Hertford UK


Lee B
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Reg H wrote: It would be nice to see "Tollie" under steam and pulling folks around.  That would be a super major project.  Pete Replinger personally cut large holes in the bottom of the boiler. 

I have not talked to Joel Hawthorne.  I am kind of avoiding being too vocal about my interest.  I have way too much on my plate to get involved in this project and I could very easily get sucked in. 

I am also up to my neck in Shelton politics at the moment, which are very ugly.   Though I support what the museum is trying to do, I am, quite vocally, opposed to the City contributing any monetary support.  The museum is just one of the political footballs being kicked around town. So I am probably persona non grata among the active museum supporters.

I applaud you sticking to your convictions when it's something that'd be 'cool' to you. Most people, as you know, always want budget cuts for things they DON'T find interesting or get benefits from, but you dare not cut anything from what they want!
Joel's a good guy, the most laid-back train fan I've ever met. Some folks swear they've never actually heard him say anything.

It was surprising to go through their website and see how much progress they've had. I wasn't aware they had almost all the remaining rolling stock (other than the log cars) from the Simpson operation after the other locomotives were sold to WWR (or whatever it's called now) down at Chehalis. Also, it was a shock to know they have about 10 miles of useable track. I just hope they're able to get those passenger cars (a baggage car, and observation car and some manner of heavily-modified diner car) from Chehalis onto the tracks at Shelton. I know the roundhouse in Shelton is coming down, so I guess a large shed/depot will be next on the agenda.


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Alan, a few more  Simpson Timber films to enjoy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMr9nYOfLEA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZblPOztFtSI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWhIpR3bswk&t=1043s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IRJ06xudko&t=546s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dke-NTNkDGo&t=196s


Kind regards Peter M


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Thanks Peter.

There are quiet a few recent ( i.e from 2010) videos of Simpson on YouTube, but not much before then which is a pity.
Guess those who took them don't want to post on YouTube.
Can't blame them as I have some video from 1989 on DVD ( RegH has a copy) but decided not to go on YouTube.
I know there were some films made in the 1950's/60's but have not seen these anywhere.

Anyway it is good, if a little sad, to see what was at Shelton just a few years ago.





For interest, attached is a photo I took in August 1989 of the woods train heading out to the dump in Oakland Bay.

Best wishes
Alan


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Hi Alan  :wave:


Hope it's going well in the Herts. of logging country, North of London.  ;)

I liked your photos ^^ above ...

... & was looking through my logging photos, when I found this one I thought you might be interested in.





Camp cars under construction ... No idea where or when.  L:



:)



Si.


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Hi Si.

Thanks for the e-mail.

Not much happening with modelling.
But I have had a custom up-grade to a Walthers SW1200 with new paint job and sound which I am very happy with.

However both my shortline FM 10-44 have strangely failed.
So am having to get them looked at and the shortline is having to “hire” a SW9 from the lumber company.
Think this also happened in reality on the Weyerhaeuser Columbia and Cowlitz in the late 1960’s.

I plan to get some scenery done in the next few weeks 
 
The photo is interesting as you do not often see camp cars being constructed.
I cannot be sure where it is but I think it might be Rayonier.
The completed car looks like some in photos I have seen of the operation,
and also the cars I saw at the Camp Six Museum in Tacoma and now moved Mineral.
Also the shop building looks like some at Railroad Camp photos.
Would think the the photo dates from the 1920's

Look forward to hearing from you

Best wishes
Alan


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That last photo reminds me of the very nice laser-cut kit that Daniel Caso produced under his FACLAV banner,
which is regrettably no longer and which I am fortunate to have an example of sitting outside Updah's loco workshop.











I could even begin to think bits of Updah are prototypical Si! :bg:


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Alan:

Funny you should mention the Columbia and Cowlitz.
The very first railfan trip I took with John Henderson, which was the day I met him,
was a trip to that railroad which culminated in a cab ride in a leased Milwaukee SW (1200, I think).  

That was quite a trip.
The engineer didn't seem to take much care with the locomotive.
He would yank the throttle to notch 8, the locomotive would bellow and holler until the circuit breaker tripped.
At which point the engineer would slam the throttle closed, wait for the circuit breaker to reset, then yank it back to full throttle. 

Anyway, that trip was my introduction to John Henderson, the Big Muddy, and a life long (well, his anyway) friendship.  

Reg


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Hi Reg

Good to hear from you.

Although I never saw the Columbia & Cowlitz (CLC) operating on my trips with John Henderson,
I got a trip around the Longview mill with the CLC superintendent back in 1989,
and I did railfan the woods line a couple of times with John.
Yes riding the "big muddy" ( John's van to those not in the know ) was quite an experience.
The CLC is another inspiration for my model railroad

I did join the Peninsular Railway Museum - seems like they have fired up some equipment etc.
Any news from your perspective on them.

Best wishes
Alan


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Hi again Reg

Was wondering if you had any photos from that day with John H.

I have seen photos of mixed Weyerhaeuser/CLC consists on the Columbia and Cowlitz but no leased power.
Always thought WTC would have enough motors to help out their short line.
There is a JohnH photo in the Vail/McDonald book showing a leased MILW unit on the Chehalis Western,
so perhaps the CLC lease was part of a package.
Anyway interesting story and food for thought on my model.

Progress on the Henderson Bay branch looks good.

Best wishes
Alan  


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Alan:

Now that I think about it...

We chased the Columbia & Cowlitz that day, but rode the Chehalis Western.  We also visited a scrap yard stocked with Milwaukee Little Joe's.  It was a busy day.

I will see if I can scare up some prints.  My photos are in a bit of disarray.   I've lots of great negatives that have never been printed.  Someday I would like a good photo scanner and work on those.  

Lots of good "Big Muddy" stories.  The best trip was a two-week trip to Alaska with John and "The Friar".  


Reg

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Hi Reg
 
That would make sense and then the photo in the Vail book must be on your trip.

Reminds me that in the "Logging to the Saltchuck" book there is a photo of Simpson's ballast spreader by John.
I was standing beside him when he took that- probably a bit open-mouthed at the sight of that contraption at work.

Hope you can get some of your photos sorted.

Best wishes
Alan


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A photo of the plow on that trip in 1989.





Think John was off in the brush to my left looking for a good shot.

Alan


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Alan:

I think I still have the slide show I put together for Johns memorial.  But I don't have a means of digitizing that stuff yet.

I suppose I should work on that.

Reg

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Hi Alan  :wave:



As well as some great modelling pix. ...













... & some great & unique historical pix. ... plus stories & tales from the tall timber as well ...









... including the mysterious enigmatic  " Big Muddy "  whatever on Earth that is/was ?  L:

It's lookin' good.  :thumb:

I wonder if the 'Andrews Company Shops' are riveting together an HO version ??  ???



;)



I took the liberty of doing a spot of 'digital welding' myself ...

... and 'welded on' your original 'Joining Freerails' Forum Thread, to this one ...

... since it contained mucho info & pix. from the tall timber in it's own right.



It all comes in 'date order', so it follows on quite nicely & no one will 'see the join' ...

... just like a big pine, superglued back together again !  :shocked:



I think you could be right, about moving your Thread from the HO Forum, to the Logging Forum ...

... as it looks like you have/will be Posting quite a bit of 'historical' material, as well as 'modelling'.

It may well mean that 'non-scale-specific' folk, interested in your prototypes, might stumble across it more easily and/or often.  :)



I remember what I thought was a really  C :cool: :cool: L  piece in the N.G.& S.L.G. back in the late '80s pre Internet days ...

... about mooodern Simpson & others, Diesel Forest Railroading in the Pacific Northwest.

I was tempted myself, had it not been for my then interest in 1:24n3  "rolling rust bucket narrow gauge logging".  ;)



Oh well ...

... never say die !  :P

My 'Tri-ang' road-switchers & lovely swingin' '60s log-cars, complete with the five 1/2" x 6" chunks of 'realistic' doweling, need a home !


You never know ? ... That '60s vintage dowelling, could well have come from the woods outside of Shelton !  :old dude:

:java:  Now there's a thought !!



:moose: :moose: :moose: :moose: :moose:



Si.


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Si:

I suppose I should poke my nose into the logging thread, as well.

My sources for Simpson are kind of shaky.   Shelton is a small town.  The politics of which have gotten just as ugly as they are on the national stage.  It is no longer sufficient to disagree with those in the opposition, you have to hate them.

I am not generally involved in politics, but have some skin in the game.  I tend to fire up the smoking word processor and generate my fair share of letters to the editor.  

Many of the movers and shakers in the museum are also involved in local politics.

Unfortunately, my political views are generally in opposition to the political views of most of the folks involved in the effort to establish the logging museum.  

At Forest Festival on Saturday, the museum had a booth.  Naturally, I dropped by to chat.  It was made quite clear that those folks want nothing to do with me.  

Reg



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I think politics have to be kept where they belong: in the trash can!
Jose.

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pipopak wrote: I think politics have to be kept where they belong: in the trash can!
Jose.


Yep!   

Reg

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Si

Thanks for the nice comments and for making this thread more complete.

I am open to changing this from HO Forum to logging if you think this would work better.
Don't know how to do it however.

Best regards from  Hertford  - home of the world first paper mill apparently.

Alan


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" I am open to changing this from HO Forum to logging if you think this would work better "


Hi Alan  :wave:



OK then ! ... DONE !!

You are now an 'official' Freerails mooodern lumberjack !  ;)



A great many new Members join Freerails, after spotting Threads which match their own interests.

I just figured that all those other mooodern logging nutz out there ...

... are more likely to discover your Thread here in 'Logging' rather than in 'HO'.



You never know ...
... there could be a FLOOD of obsessive mooodern loggers sign-up, to wax everything 'Diesel & Timber' !  :old dude:

Not as obsessive as you of course Alan ... At least according to your Mrs. !  ;)



:moose:



Si.


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Hi.

I am curious about the yellow car behind the yellow SW unit.

Can you post a pic of it from the top?

Thanks.

Jose.


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Hi

The yellow car is based on a Simpson prototype used up to the early 1980's at least.
It was one of several steam loco tenders, rebuilt I think in the Shelton shops,
as track sprinkler and fire car, to reduce fire hazard from brake shoes sparks etc.
It also served as protection between the lokey and the train in case of a shifted load going through the cab!!
The top is really flat but held a box of firefighting tools, hose reel and various cables etc.

Rather that have a another photo of my model, attached are some of the real thing from my collection.

Alan

This is the prototype by Shelton shops.





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The fire car on the Simpson railroad was matched with a caboose and lokey.
This is the set up.





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And here is a John Henderson photo from the cab looking across the top of one of these cars.
Shows the equipment/junk carried.





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Reg et al

Re: Peninsula rail museum in Shelton.
 

Seems really unfortunate that we are in this "if you are not with me, then you are completely against me" version of politics.
There should always be some form of understanding about why anyone takes a view point especially as there is usually more ways of looking at a subject.

Having had some experience of local pressure groups and having been part of the museum "industry",
I know both how passionate, and how blinkered, some can become and therefore not find the time to have a reasoned discussion.

Obviously the rail museum would like support in Shelton.
However I can see that stretched city budgets will make funding this pretty far down the priorities,
especially if the tourist demand is as yet unproved and Shelton/Mason County probably need a firm business plan they could buy into.

With my museum management hat on,
I know that many enthusiast groups forget about the "business" end, in their desire to preserve their favorite bit of the past. 
However I do wish them well in preserving whatever they can of the Simpson rail operations.

Alan 
 

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Recycling at it's finest!.
Thanks. Jose.

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Hi Jose

I am not a great believer in the commonly held belief that loggers built most equipment in their own shops.
However there are some good examples of re-purposing equipment to better suit the operations needs.
Simpson's water car is a one example, as is the ballast plow which was built on a PC&F moving car.

I try not to have too many examples of home built stock.
But I have built the water cars and a couple of tank car conversions.
 
Regards
Alan


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There has been some discussion about John Henderson,
a long time and very detailed rail fan, particularly of logging/mining/industrial railroads.

He has credits in many places and was one of the primary driving forces behind the magazine Tall Timber Short Lines.

Unfortunately, the last issue of the magazine carried John's obituary.
I don't think that was a coincidence.  

Some questions were raised, by Si, particularly about the fabled "Big Muddy".

Here a a few photos that may shed some light on the subject.











The last image is of John overlooking the Simpson mill in Shelton, Washington.
It was taken very shortly before he passed.

Reg


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Found a couple of photos on 'Google Images' of the Simpson Timber Co. tender conversions.






:moose:



Si.


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:moose:



Si.


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Great photo ^^ Alan !  :)






:moose:



Si.


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Hi Si.

Thanks for the photos.

The two shots of the water cars I must think be at Shelton probably as the Peninsula Railway museum tried to get its act together.

The photo of the train with Alco #600 I would guess is taken at the Roots of Motive Power Museum in California,
after Chris Baldo acquired some items of Simpson's equipment.
Alco #600 was used by Simpson as the mill switcher and then was spare lokey for several years.
I saw it as that in 1999.
Attached is a photo from my collection of it working at Shelton.

The water car is in a earlier Simpson livery.
Again from my collection is a photo of this coupled to its pair SW900 #900, one of the few SW900 fitted with dynamic brakes.

Simpson also had another Alco #20 which they got when they brought out Shafer in the early 1950's.
I added a photo of this at Shelton with the Rayonier pulp mill in the background.

Almost out of shot in the photo you posted is one of the 1920's PC&F ballast cars as restored.
These were long lived and the photo I took in 1999 shows it at work spreading ballast  near Shelton.

Thanks again for posting the material.

Alan





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SW900 plus water car in yellow.





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Alco #20 working at Shelton.





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Photo I took in 1999 of 70 year old ballast cars at work.
 
Alan





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Alan,

Those look like interesting ballast cars.

Any more photos of them?


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Hi Michael

Yes they were interesting cars and still being used for track work in 1999 and probably much later.
They were originally PC&F cars built in the 1920's.
I think PC&F advertised them in the logging magazines of the time.
I seem to remember John Henderson thought the Shelton shops may have rebuilt some,
and certainly the braking system looks more modern than 1925.

I have some more photos and a few are attached.
#1 was working with the  ballast plow in 1989.

Regards
Alan





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Ballast car 6 was in the training dumping ballast in 1999 on the outskirts of Shelton.





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And #7 was with one of Simpsons's loco cranes by the shops in 1989.

Hope you find these interesting.

Alan





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Thanks for the info.

The cars look like they might be 36' or 40'.  Almost like a flatcar frame with a hopper on top.

Did find a little more info:

https://rootsofmotivepower.com/rail-car/rail-ballast-car-simpson-timber-company-6/


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Hi Micheal

I did not measure these cars but I think they are probably 36'.

I know there have been a few articles on them.
One I could find quickly today was in "TimberTimes" issue 18 of January 1998.
This has more photos of a Weyerhaeuser example found near Klamath Falls.
The drawing in TimberTimes shows similar cars to be 36 feet.

I also just looked up my copy of the "Logging Modelers Handbook",
and there is a Pacific Lumber Co version with an overall length of just under 36 foot.

Hope that is useful.

Alan


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Hi again.

I looked through a few more sources on the PC&F ballast cars,
and now I think they were 34 feet over the frames and maybe 36 feet over the couplings.

I also found a few more photos.

This is from the Ivan Ergish collection that John Henderson held and is one of a number he copied for me after our trip in 1999.
This is at Headquarters Idaho on the Clearwater operations of Potlatch.
Note the hopper sides have been replaced with wood planks.

Alan





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This is another PFI Clearwater car looking similar to the Simpson examples.

Alan




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This is a John Henderson photo from Weyerhaeuser Longview operations.
It seems to be a steel version of the earlier PC&F car.
Whether by them or a rebuild in the Longview shops which were/are capable of such work, I don't know.
However John thought they were supplied by PC&F ( PACCAR)

Alan





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Thanks for the photos.

Those footboards along the sides add an interesting touch.


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Hi Michael.

Don't know for sure what the footboards are for, but in some other photos there appears to be a handrail along the top of the car.
I think therefore they are to allow a crewman to go from car to car,
to open and close the hopper doors, without getting on and off the car while they were moving and dumping ballast.

When I was at Shelton a crew member was doing this and it seemed pretty dangerous.
The ground at Shelton was fairly level so I can see in a typical woods situation it being even more scary.
 
While as I have suggested Simpson used a ballast plow, Potlatch seemed to use just a baulk of timber attached to one of the cars.
You can see this in the attached photo.

Alan





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:moose:



Si.


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When you descend into Shelton (the road hugs the side of a hill, sharply downhill to town, you pass a sectioned log about that size, right where his photo was made.
I wonder if it's the exact one in that photo?
It might be a replacement after all these years, sitting outside in that climate?

Ironically, I missed having my WW2 Jeep in the annual Shelton logger's festival parade (going past that sign along the way) this year because I'd just gotten back from the UK the day before!


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Hi Lee

I think the tree section as you come down into Shelton is the original in the photo.
I have a recent (2015) from Arcadia on Mason County logging showing this roofed over in 1978 and stating the longevity of the Douglas fir.
Also I remember in 1989 Berwyn Thomas saying it was the same log when we visited Shelton.

Hope you enjoyed your trip to the UK.
Where did you go?

Tried to start some scenery over the last few days BUT its too darn hot in my loft.
May have to wait for the heat wave to finish, but can however still run trains!!!

Alan


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Alan Sewell wrote:  
Hope you enjoyed your trip to the UK.
Where did you go?


London, Southampton (to take a cruise into the Med and back) and some trains between those points and then to Paris via the Eurostar.
Spent a few days in a nice (but tiny) hotel along Cromwell drive, and we rode the underground several times.
In May there was that heat wave, we practically melted there and in Paris, as it was very sunny and hot there (which we didn't expect).
We also went to Gibraltar, which is very much UK (though they drive on the right side of the road there).








As for Shelton, if you ever need photos of anything, just let me know as I go there every now and then.


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No real progress on my layout due to a number of reasons but hope to get to doing some work on scenery and structures over the next few months.

However I am taking some stock to the NMRA British Region Convention in late October as part of my clubs layout, 
and as this is a 1980’s onwards time frame I could not use my normal lokeys and cars. 
However it is an opportunity to run some of the modern-stock I have acquired and I have been running rolling stock around my "prototypically" rough industrial trackwork. 
If if can deal with that I am sure it should be OK on the day. 

I have realised some of the log cars have arch-bar trucks, outlawed on common carriers by the 1940's, so I am changing these out and also a couple of wheel sets. 
Hopefully all will be working in the next couple of weeks.

For some idea the attached photos show some of these operations.  
The yellow U25B is ex Weyerhaeuser’s Oregon California and Eastern (one of these was the first US diesel I climbed on in 1989) 
which will have some Andrews Forest Products decals added. 
My history says in 1990 AFP acquires OCE from WTCo at Klamath Falls OR. 
In 1995 Andrews completes logging at Bly and MK U25B #7605 is transferred to the Woods RR at Jennis.

Hope you enjoy
Alan


Attachment: IMG_0652.JPG (Downloaded 53 times)

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Another photo of train switching near the dry sort area
Alan 

Attachment: IMG_0657.JPG (Downloaded 52 times)

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Empty train heads back to the woods
Alan 

Attachment: IMG_0658.JPG (Downloaded 51 times)

Alan Sewell
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#7605 stops to exchange words with the crew of the mill switcher #315 an EMD SW1500
Alan 

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Reg H
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Lee B wrote:  
When you descend into Shelton (the road hugs the side of a hill, sharply downhill to town, you pass a sectioned log about that size, right where his photo was made.
I wonder if it's the exact one in that photo?
It might be a replacement after all these years, sitting outside in that climate?

Ironically, I missed having my WW2 Jeep in the annual Shelton logger's festival parade (going past that sign along the way) this year because I'd just gotten back from the UK the day before!




The city is currently refurbishing this attraction.
Reg

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The new Sierra Pacific mill was officially dedicated in past week or so.  There is lots of lumber going out on the PS&P.

The museum is still pretty much a few fans playing with trains in the weeds out at the old dry sort.  

I sure would like to see it become a going concern, but they desperately need a sugar daddy.

Reg

Alan Sewell
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Hi Reg
Good to see the city is doing some work on its heritage but even more so that the SP mill is up and shipping by rail. Just a shame they don't need a switcher and to use the old STC main out to Knights.
I have foolishly joined the museum and yes it does seem like fans "playing trains" - not dissimilar to a few museums here!!. Like you I hope they get some external funding or I guess they will stay playing until thew money runs out. 
It is worth noting Pete R has just written a book on the Schafer Bros and this includes the connection with Simpson. It is a good book  which I would recommend. There are some photos of what to see now which includes the shops at Brady that John H and I saw in 1999
Hope you are progressing with  your layout - I hope to do a bit more on mine before the NMRA British Convention 
Best wishes
Alan 

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I drive by the Brady shops on my way to and from work every day.Alan:

Vaughn Chopper Pumps has built two large buildings to the east of the old shops, so it is apparent their business is doing well.

As I think I have mentioned, I am pretty much persona non grata with most of the folks involved with the museum as a result of my support of the previous mayor of Shelton.  

My letters to the editor have been credited as being at least instrumental, and perhaps decisive, in preventing a takeover of the city council by a particular faction.  Most of the folks involved in the museum identify with that faction and politics in the US in general, and Washington State in particular, are divisive in the extreme. 

Sad.

Reg

Jack M
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  Does anybody know if Pete Replinger's book on the Schafer Bros. Logging operation is available yet and where can I purchase it? I never followed this operation as there wasn't that much published about in the 60's and 70's as I floored to read just how big of an operation that it was. It had 18 steam locomotives, 325 various types of logging cars, 3 sawmills and a shingle mill and employed around 3,000 personnel.
  I grew up 25 miles South of Centralia and only followed Wyerehaeuser's Longview and Vail operations, Rayioner, Inc. and the Chehalis Western. The Chehalis Western was my favorite operation and I have visited their Pe Ell balloon loop location many times. I even got to ride it in the late 60's when they only had the two FM H12-44's and the Alco C415. We had the choice of riding either one of the FM units or the C415. We chose the C415 as it would be easier to take photos and videos from the train. It was an exciting but long trip from Pe Ell to the log dump at South Bay near Olympia. We pulled a train of 65 loaded skeleton log cars that day. When we got back we got a video of the log loader unloading car loads of logs from log trucks and transferring them to skeleton cars for the trip to the South Bay dump the next day.  The operation is pretty much still there when I last visited Pe Ell about 5 years ago or so except that all the track has been removed. Weyerhaeuser still used the truck shops and offices at Pe Ell and were hauling logs by trucks. Even the log loader was still there rusting away surrounded by weeds.  I would appreciate any information about the new Schafer Bros. logging book and where I can purchase one.  Attached is a photo of the Schafer Bros. shops I believe that were at Brady, WA.
   Jack M.

Attachment: Schafer Bros Shops at Satsop.jpg (Downloaded 81 times)

Alan Sewell
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Hi Jack
Yes the book is published 
It is called " The Schafer Brothers - Pioneer Loggers of the Satsop Valley" The publisher is cited as PJR Productions but I guess this might be Pete Replinger himself. The ISBN is 978-0-9899447-2-4. It runs to over 250 pages and has a DVD of the Schafer operations in 1925 enclosed. I highly recommend it even thogh I have not read it all
However I found it difficult to get hold of  and eventual got a copy from the Peninisular Railway Museum in Shelton  - emailed  joel@peninsularrailway.org who might know more
I guess the reason there was not much information in the 1960s-70's was that Schafer had been sold to Simpson by then - in 1955- and most of the equipment was scrapped and the track lifted. Their diesel #20 went to Simpson and I saw it stored at John's Prairie in 1989. I think it was scrapped later which was unfortunate. 
Envious that you managed to ride the Chehalis Western. I only saw a few log cars in 1989 and the loader at Pe Ell in 1999. I have some photos from John Henderson and others plus the book on the operation so realise what I missed.
I guess this is the down side of modelling railroads 6,000 miles from home
Regards
Alan 

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I forget the year, but John and I, and Alan Winston, rode what I believe was the C&W.  It was the occasion that I met John.  There was always some disagreement as to the year we met.  I was certain it was 1975, John contended it couldn't be earlier than 1976. I wasn't much into industrial railroads up to that time, so didn't pay much attention on that trip.

The railroad was operating an SW1200 leased from the Milwaukee and the engineer was doing a pretty good job of abusing it.  

It was a good and hilarious trip and John and I were instant fast friends.  Of course, the mode of transportation was the Big Muddy.

Reg



Jack M
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  Alan, thanks for the info on Pete Replinger's new book on the Schafer Bros. Logging Co, I just sent the museum an email to see how I could order it and what was the price.   Don't feel bad that you missed a lot when you visited the Chehalis Western as I did too the many times that I drove to PeEll, WA to see the operation at the balloon loop. I stepped the the width of the balloon loop and if I didn't make an error I figured that the loop had a 196' radius. Just about every time that I went there I mostly took photos of the locos and a few odd pieces of rolling stock but always forgot to take any photos of the motorized load loader that sat on a spur track off the balloon loop, the few shacks that sat on the property which I later found out later that were old bunk cars. I did manage to take some photos of the car puller that positioned the skeleton cars in front of the large log loader transferring a whole load of logs from a log truck to a skeleton car and also took a few photos of the simple fueling station to fuel the locos that sat across from the small long warehouse that was used as a sanding station and also for miscellaneous storage. The day that we rode the train I had to take a gallon coffee can and scoop a few buckets of sand from the sand bin in the end of the small warehouse building and dump them into the Alco C415 that we would be riding that day hauling a string of 65 loaded skeleton cars to the South Bay dump at Olympia.   Attached is a photo of the shop building and the small warehouse in front at the PeEll on the balloon loop. I think that this photo was taken before 1968 before they acquired the Alco C415 as this loco would be usually parked on the track to the left in the photo and the FM #492 would be parked on the right in the photo while the FM #493 was usually found parked in the stall inside the shop building behind on the left end as they only used the #493 for standby then.   Both the shop building and the small warehouse that contained the sand bin was still standing when I was last there about 5 years ago or so and all of the track had been pulled up. Weyerhaeuser still uses the shop building to service their fleet of log trucks and also use the office building upstairs.   They are still hauling alot of logs by truck that pass behind the shop building in the photo. When I was there I saw alot of empty log trucks passing by to the left in the photo going somewhere to reload them. I was thinking of following them to see where they were going but the road was just a dirt road covered with large rocks so I didn't think that the sports car that I had at the time would make it.   The large log loader built by Link Belt which has been long abandoned was sitting rusting away surrounded by tall weeds. The trucks under this log loader appear to be standard railroad trucks but the one truck on the rear of it came from a scrapped Lidgerwood Skidder.   I had plans of building the PeEll reload but even in N Scale it would take up too much room. The ballon loop would take up an area of 3' x 5' and the yard, loader and service tracks would take up an area of another 18" x 8' and I would have to condense the South Bay dump down to 4' in length and the track from the PeEll section to the South Bay dump would have to be shortened to only 8'. I ended up choosing On30 and am building a small logging operation. I found that a short train of say 3 to 5 short 20' cars would take up less room than a long string of 40' skeleton cars in N Scale. 
    
 Jack M.      

Attachment: C.W. at PeEll.jpg (Downloaded 62 times)

Alan Sewell
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Reg
That is an interesting story. In the Vail book there is a photo credited to John of a MILW SW1200 being trashed. Does not help with the dates as it states it was from the mid-70’s!!. I have another photo (attached) which may also be by John and shows the lokey. Again there is no date on the mount
Jack
Thanks for your post. Very nice piece of history.  I visited Pe Ell in September 1999 and all the track was lifted. However I was fascinated by the transfer machine and took several photos. I will look these out and scan them. I also took some photos of the shops and the shacks which John recognised as being from the woods. I have been tempted to build the transfer but not on a balloon loop – I model HO and in a small British house it would be too too much. Would like to see some of your other photos
Hope you get a reply on the Schafer book
Best regards
Alan

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Alan:

That appears to be occasion.  The engineer (driver to you, I suppose) was yanking the throttle out to notch 8 at every start.  If the circuit breakers tripped, he slammed it shut, waited for the breakers to reset, than yanked it back out to the stops.

That little locomotive was doing a lot of bellowing and hollering.

Besides being the trip on which John and I met, it was epic in other ways.  Lots of good stories were swapped, and the C&W was only part of the trip.

We also visited the Milwaukee "Little Joes" on the scrap line.  I will see if I can dig up some of those photos and email them to you (or post them on the traction thread).   I shot those photos in 35mm Ektachrome.  I don't have a means of scanning slides (yet) but I think I have prints lurking in my files.
Reg

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There is so much good stuff to model.  It really is hard for me to stay focused on what I am doing.

I am on a bit of trip.  I visited a friend and business associate just outside Colfax, WA.  If you have  never been to Colfax, you are in good company, lots of folks have never been to Colfax.

Anyway, he and his family have a 200 acre farm, through which runs the abandoned and vacated right-of-way for the Spokane Inland Empire Railroad.  

There is a book just out about that railroad, and it was a very fascinating electrified operation.  It was eventually taken over the the Great Northern (box motors flagged for the GN...very cool), converted to diesel, and then abandoned. 

I need to be independently wealthy so I can build three or four model railroads.

Reg

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Hi Reg 
I try to keep focused - being retired helps as funding is tight but I know what you mean
Pleased the photo I posted seems to be of the event around meeting with John. Sure looks as if the SW was being worked hard. I wonder if the CW engineer drove their FM units or the later GP's the same way
Hope the weekend has gone well
Best regards
Alan 

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Alan:

I am having a good time.  I was at a professional conference most of last week.   I was halfway to my cousins, so decided to visit him in Montana.  

Reg

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Alan


Yes, I got a reply from Joel at the museum and got my Schafer Logging Book ordered.
Received another email from him yesterday saying that it would be shipped today (Monday) and it should arrive here Thursday. 
I checked EBay last night and they have 8 copies for sale again.


I did get to take a peak at the book today as Lyle Spears (noted HO logging modeler and author of many logging articles in past issues of Model Railroader and other publications) visited me today and brought along his copy that he received as a complimentary copy for a drawing that he submitted for the book. 
After looking at it I am looking forward for my copy as it is a good bargain for $45. 


Last time I got a good bargain on a book was back in the '60's when I was pressured to buy John Labbe's first book called Railroads In The Woods. 
John was working part time in a hobby shop in Portland, OR at the time and when I went to pay him for my purchases he made a pitch for his book that sold for $10 back then. 
I hesitated as I was use to paying no more than $7.50 back then but since I didn't want to offend John I purchased the book. 
When I got home and started reading it I came to the conclusion that it was the best purchase that I could have made. 
I scratch built many logging rolling stock models from the photos in the book. 
Many years later I purchased another copy and put away my first copy since John Labbe had signed it for me.


John seemed to know everything about the logging industry. 
If I had a question about anything logging related I would call him at home. 
He had a large cabinet about 3' x 5' or so that contained thousands of slides of logging photos that he had taken. 
He didn't have any of them marked but he could always tell you where it was taken.


Alan if you want to see pictures of Lyle Spear's logging modules that he built back around 1960 and that still exist in his basement you can find an article that was published in the December 1959 Model Railroader I believe. 
If you can't locate a copy I can send you pictures that I took of this 24" x 75" logging camp module that I took a few years ago when I visited him. 
Just let me know what your email address is and I will send you the photos. 
Lyle also built a module showing his scratch built camp cars and another one of a logging camp that featured his scratch built modules and a loader. 
I have photos of these too. 


Alan, since you are interested in the Chehalis Western log transfer but don't have the room for a balloon loop you could build what I was going to do at one time using a slot car track that was operated by a moving spring in the road instead of the later slots in the tracks for a guide on the race cars to hold the cars on the track. 
My plans were to build the loader and have a flat loop about 18" to 24" wide and about 48" long moving log trucks positioned on the track every few feet and then using the log transfer to move the logs from the log trucks to skeleton cars. 
It ended up being one of the many projects that I designed but never got around to building.


If you want to see many more photos taken on the Chehalis Western there is a Chehalis Western Group on Yahoo Groups website but you might not be able to join as I don't know if it is moderated any longer as the last post on the group was four years ago.
All the photos and posts are still there and I checked the website the other night to download one of the photos that I posted there years ago.


Attached is that photo of a C.W. half caboose #711 which was rarely seen at the Pe Ell reload and I just happened to spot it on one visit when it was parked on a spur track in front of the Transfer loader. 
The photo isn't that good as I used an old 110 cheap camera that I used for backup photos for the 35mm camera I also carried with me. 
Most of my photos using the 35mm camera were usually out of focus as I really didn't know how to use that camera so I used the cheap 110 camera too as all you had to do is point and shoot. 
Many years later I saw the #711 caboose sitting on the RIP track at Weyerhaeuser's Vail operation along with the Chehalis Western's #493 FM H12-44 which was there too as they were stripping it for parts to keep the #492 operating. 
Since I knew that I probably would never see this caboose again I took some photos of it plus I climbed all over it taking dimensions of everything and jotting my notes down in a notebook. 
I never made a drawing of it but somewhere around I still have my notes with all the dimensions of everything.


Attached is the photo of caboose #711 at the Pe Ell reload. 
Also once I spotted the two water cars that were made out of the tenders of the two 2-8-2's that were used on the C.W. when they operated steam on the original Camp McDonald facilities before they opened the Pe Ell reload. 
These two water cars usually were never seen at Pe Ell either. 
I guess that the caboose and the two water cars were more than likely would usually be found on the Vail line.



Jack M






Alan Sewell
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Hi Jack
 Sorry I have not got back to your interesting post

 I have not got the Lyle Spears 1959 article but a 1966 article which covers his Camp Nooksack modules. I still think they are some of the best renditions in model forms of logging railroads. I guess he was modelling what he knew rather than second or third hand.

 I also have the John Labbe Railroads in the Woods- again one of the seminal works on logging by rail and I was able to get John and Pete Replinger sign my copy of Logging to the Saltchuck”  ( the Simpson Railroad history) Hope you now have the book on Schafer – it is a good read

 I liked your ideas on the Pe-Ell loader but I doubt I have the space to do that – unless I get my wife to allow an extension to the layout space!! Or maybe a freemo module

 I am fascinated by those cabooses – it seems the Washington loggers really liked the half flat car versions as Simpson, Rayonier ( Sieku ), Schafer and others had their own versions on the CW caboose. Wonder if they copied one another. I have also seen photos of the tender conversions and the PC&F tank cars one of which bizarrely numbered 000

 I have done little more on my layout but have been weathering etc. the more modern lokeys and log cars to take to the British NMRA Convention. I have also just acquired Rapido Trains SW1200RS and done a repaint as an ex-lease repatched unit. This is a real state of the art switcher.

 Hopefully I can get back to modelling in November

 Alan

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Alan:

Interesting note on the cabooses (cabeese?).  

Speaking of John Labbe, I have an HO logging engine facility that John Henderson entrusted to me to do some repair work.  I never got around to the repair work and possession fell to me when John Henderson passed away.

According to John Henderson the facility was built by John Labbe.  There is no documentation to that effect, but the two Johns were good friends and there is no reason to doubt John Henderson's word.  

I have no room for it on my layout and would like to find a better home for it.  It is not easily "shippable" so it would have to be someone within striking distance of Shelton, WA.

Anyway, it is available to anyone who could provide a good home.

Reg 

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Alan


Since you liked the article by Lyle Spears on the HO scale Nooksack module, attached is a colored photo of it that I took when I went over to photograph his modules. 

Yes, you are right when you said that he modeled what he knew. 
Back in the late 50's and 60's he would go and visit various logging lines scattered in Oregon and Washington. 
He would take photos of logging related subjects from locomotives, rolling stock, equipment to structures and also take field measurements too. 

When he got home he would sit down and create HO scale drawings of it all. 
Many years ago he sold a set of almost 80 blue line drawings of part of his collection of the stuff that he photographed and took measurements. 
This book of drawings was labelled Logs A' Rolling or something like this. 
I think he charged around $40 or so for the pack of drawings. 


A few years ago he brought over the photos that he used to created to make drawings for his plan book. 
I helped him to scan the photos and put them all on a CD that he wanted to provide for his friends.  

I also found a photo online of the Chehalis Western #711 caboose before it was rebuilt as a half caboose. 
Apparently it got rear ended and so when they rebuilt it they decided to make it a half caboose. 
When the railroad was shut down the last I heard was that the caboose was being used to house a hot tub but I forget now where it ended up at.  

Alan, if you want some info on Lyle's first HO module which was a 18" x 75" diorama let me know what your email address is and I will send you copies of it.


Jack M


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  Sorry, I forgot to attached the photo of Lyle Spears' Nooksack Camp that was in the article in an old Model Railroader. This photo is in color while the one provided was in black & white.

  Jack M.

Attachment: Nooksack Camp.jpg (Downloaded 71 times)

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Hi Jack

Thanks for the photos and information. 

The camp looked good in black and white but much better in color. 
I guess it was based on Rayonier's Camp 14 as the camp car placement looks similar. 
I think this as got ingrained into mind as the layout of my Headquarters camp uses camp cars in a similar way, but then again such a layout was fairly common.
 
Several years ago I managed to get a copy of "Logs a Rollin" - think it is an original as it is #036 of 1974. 
It has some great inspirational drawings. 
The only problem is like the "Logging Modelers Planbook" it has too many projects I would like to do and not enough time!!! 

Wish he had made that CD of photos  available, I would have brought a copy.


Best regards

Alan 



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Attached is a photo of the Chehalis Western log loader taken from a drone photo from a video on the Mt. Rainier Scenic Railroad which is a tourist operation running from Elbe to 
Mineral, WA. 
This tourist line features a good selection of operating logging locomotives that came from several now long gone logging operations from the Pacific Northwest to Canada.
They also have a fair amount of logging equipment also including Rayonier camp cars, donkeys, rolling stock as well as miscellaneous logging equipment.  


Below are links of YouTube videos showing a partial selection of their logging locomotives in operation and also is a drone video flying over their museum at Mineral, WA showing the camp cars as well as other goodies. 
I believe that all of the skeleton log cars in the videos came from the Chehalis Western.


Here are the links to the videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N42fOK35MKI  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67WtNiNIGwQ&t=169s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rf8cf3rYetM&t=4s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLbcDoh77qY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_OmVvJePVg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWqpLhnhAq8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnbiEGh0A08&t=201s


Enjoy!


Jack M.





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Hi Jack
Thanks for the links - will look at them later. Expect they will bring back memories 
Back in 1989 on my first visit to the USA I rode the train. In fact they let me ride the footplate to Mineral with two of my children. They rang the bell and blue the whistle for grade crossings- the sun shone and it was a great experience.
I rode the train again in 2015 when I came over to the NMRA National in Portland. The ride was enjoyable and it was great  being able to walk around the museum and see the equipment. Different than the now closed Camp 6 at Tacoma but the equipment was more accessible. I took the attached there of the Clyde Loggers Special that you have the the drone shot of. Back when I could afford those things I had an HO version made up from drawings in I think "Timberbeast" magazine. It is the unloader at my model mill. I think Simpson used a similar unit. I will post a photo of this next
Regards
Alan  

Attachment: pdx clyde.JPG (Downloaded 39 times)

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This is the HO un-loader
Alan 

Attachment: ALC11 004a.jpg (Downloaded 54 times)

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Attached is a photo of the Chehalis Western FM H12-44 #493 on the RIP track at Weyerhaeuser's Vail, WA camp along with the C.W. half caboose #811 and another caboose which looks like it could be Weyerhaeuser's half caboose #800. 

I found another side shot of the WTC half caboose #800 which I will upload later.

The #493 is sitting on timbers and was being stripped of parts to keep the #492 in service.


Jack M.


Attachment: C.W. #493 at Vail RIP Track.jpg (Downloaded 103 times)

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Attached is a photo of the Chehalis Western South Bay Dump located near Olympia, WA with the #492 with a cut of skeleton log cars. 

The log unloader is similiar to the Link Belt unit at the C.W.'s Pe Ell, WA balloon loop.  
To the left there was once another track in which the steam unloader operated back and forth unloading the skeleton log cars. 
Somewhere I have a photo of it and will share it when I run across it. 
I don't remember the year when they replaced the steam unloader with the modern Link Belt unloader. 
I haven't been back there in years but I imagine that this is all gone now.  

The day I rode the C.W. from Pe Ell to the South Bay dump we were hauling 65 loaded skeleton cars. 
I noticed a lot of logs on the ground that had fallen off during the trip to the dump. 
The C.W. used their log loader along with a skeleton car and usually the half caboose towed by one of the FM H12-44's to run along the route picking up loose logs sitting on the ground. 
I don't know how many times that they made this special run as I only saw this short train maybe only two times over the period of five years or so. 

I only spotted the half caboose once at Pe Ell so they parked it somewhere else maybe on the small reload located below the freeway at Chehalis or perhaps at Vale.  

If I had a large area for a layout I would love to model this railroad in HO but since I don't I dabble in N scale and am starting a small shelf logging operation in On30 using small locos and 20' cars.

Jack M.


Attachment: C.W. #492 at South Bay Dump.jpg (Downloaded 101 times)

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Hi Jack

Great atmospheric photos and story. 
Makes me envious of your experiences riding log trains. 
Only managed that once from Shelton to Cooks wye on Simpson in 1989.

Attached are a couple of views of the older South Bay dumper which I had from John Henderson. 
The first shows it doing what it was built for. 
I am wondering if the heavy timbers in the right foreground were for the later Link Belt crane.

Regards
Alan 


Attachment: south bay.jpg (Downloaded 95 times)

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This is another from the other end and shows the unloading mechanism
Alan

Attachment: SouthBaydumper.jpg (Downloaded 93 times)

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    Thanks for posting the two photos of the South Bay steam unloader as I can't find my photos of it. I think that my photos are the same as you posted.  I tried to post a photo of something else last night but I kept getting errors so after a few tries I gave up. Hopefully this post will go through.

  Jack M.

Alan Sewell
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Hi Jack 
I think this was the diesel rebuild of the steam unloader. 
Weyerhaeuser did a similar job on their unloader at Longview. Attached is a photo I got from the company newspaper for November 1954. This seems about the same time as they rebuilt the South Bay unloader. Perhaps a project for that year along with the  new diesels at Longview.
Would love to make a model of this or the unloader at Shelton which was similar
Alan 

Attachment: lvwdumper.jpg (Downloaded 59 times)

Jack M
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Alan:
  Somewhere on, I believe, YouTube is a video showing one of these steam unloaders unloading a string of log cars at a log dump. I don't remember if it was Weyerhaeuser or somewhere else.   I will look to see if I downloaded the video and share the link.
   Jack M.

Jack M
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  Here are two links to operating steam jammers used to unload logs at the dump. The first video in an operating one on an O scale logging operation. I grabbed a photo from the video and studied it and I don't think that it will be that hard to scratch build. It is either this or perhaps build a simple Jill Poke to unload logs at an On30 dump.  The scenic video was taken back around 1929 or so on the Schafer Bros. Logging Co. This steam jammer in operation appears just over the 10 minute mark in the video. The video has no sound as this was taken back in the old days.
  Here are the two links:

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIXdswuJ5Ac&t=84s
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C95EFowJUXg&t=6s

  Enjoy!

  Jack M.

     

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Alan:

The unloader with the BTS kit uses the old parbuckle method.  I think some operations here in the PNW used that method, but earlier shows tended to use a jill poke, later moving to a grapple.  

I haven't figured out what I will do about all that.   But getting into all the research and planning (not to mention construction) of a scratchbuilt solution is not in keeping with the goals of this layout.

In fact, the mill itself is pushing the envelope pretty hard.  In theory, I should be using the Walthers, or similar sawmill.  

But I have always liked that Slaty Fork mill.

Reg

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Hi Reg
A lot of what  I have seen and what John told me was about "tight line" unloading using a gin pole or A-frame with the cables passing under the load and attached to the brow log. That looks pretty much what the BTS kit represents. I was not thinking you would need to change anything except the siding on the un-loader to make it look less like a Barnhart. But I guess nobody else but me would worry about that sort of detail.
I am looking forward to seeing how the mill progresses
Have a good weekend
Alan 

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  Although the BTS sawmill is a nice model it is rather expensive as you will have to also purchase the interior kit. Have you ever looked at the two HO sawmill kits that Sidetrack Laser Kits offer? You could get by without an interior with these two kits as they are enclosed. I have the O scale kit that they offer and if I use it I will just add The log deck and maybe the carriage in the end. The only thing that I don't like about their sawmill kits is that the jackslip doesn't go down into the pond. I asked him about this at a local convention as I thought maybe that he left part of the jackslip off to fit onto his display. He said that they used a chain to lift the logs onto the jackslip and I said no, that was wrong. So one would have to scratch the missing jackslip that was omitted which isn't that hard to accomplish. Sidetrack Laser kits are at SidetrackLaserKits.com.  If you don't have room for a complete sawmill why not scratch build the front of a sawmill to fit into a corner? Attached is a photo of it that someone is planning to use.

  Jack M.

Attachment: Corner Sawmill.jpg (Downloaded 102 times)

Jack M
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  Attached is a photo of the O scale sawmill kit that I purchased made by Sidetrack Laser Kits out of Newburg, OR. It measures 10" x 34" and sells for $398.95. The kit is also available in HO and measures 7 1/2" x 18" and sells for $189.95. I chose this kit as I won't have to spend a fortune to detail the interior. I can get by just using the log deck, the carriage and the head saw.    Sidetrack Laser Kits also makes a neat HO sawmill kit that would be placed on a dock. It is enclosed also.    The only drawback to their kits is that they cut off the end of the jackslip that carries the logs from the pond to the mill. I thought that they did it so that their dioramas would take up less room but when I asked them about this at a convention they said that they hoisted the logs up using a chain. I guess that they are not savvy when it comes to logging practices. It is not a problem though as the end of the jackslip can be modeled easily.

Jack M  

Attachment: Sidetrack Laser Sawmill.jpg (Downloaded 72 times)

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Hi Jack
That is a nice model and I looked up Sidetrack Laser on the web. They have some interesting HO kits and I might get some. It is a pity they did not get the jackslip correct especially as it is a good detail but then I guess there are not many working log-ponds around now. In any case I imagine it would not be too difficult to modify this
My only problem with the kit is its cost and too an extent the size which is a little small. My HO-scale mill is made of scribed ( with a pencil ) balsa wood over a card frame and with Grandt Line windows. This was built in the early 1980's and has survived at least one move. I added part of the green chain and a heavy timber dock around seven years ago - the mill is still not complete!! The dimensions are jack-slip 8 inches/ Mill and green-chain 28 inches/ Timber dock 8 inches. Around 4 feet for the mill plant plus additional dry lumber loading shed.
The attached shows the mill as it largely is now. The Green chain is the peaked roof building with the chip conveyor to the ( assumed ) pulp mil. The timber dock extends from the green-chain to near the crane boom and can be seen above the chip cars. These are being UNLOADED for the pulp mill. This is based on the pneumatic system used at least at the Camas mill of CZ. The steam loco is one of my "expensive brass scenery" items being used as a backup boiler. The A-frame is for the truck dump. The train dump is fed by the  tracks behind the pulp mill chemical cars.
Alan 

Attachment: 016.jpg (Downloaded 61 times)

Alan Sewell
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This is a view from the tracks - not normally see of the mill yard. I need to straighten up the water tower  I realise. Shows the timber dock and the green chain 
Alan 

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  Attached is a picture of two Weyerhaeuser speeders at Headquarters Camp on their Longview Operations.  Every logging operation needs a few of these.

  Jack M

Attachment: Weyerhaeuser Speeders.jpg (Downloaded 39 times)

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Hi Jack
Yes I agree very logging operation needs several speeders of varying sizes. The Longview ones are good examples.
Pre my DCC conversion I built the two speeders attached. These can  operated with my Lenz DCC. 
The first is based on the Gibson #117 used by Simpson
Alan 

Attachment: spa1.JPG (Downloaded 29 times)

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This is one of the prototype photos by John Henderson

Attachment: speeder.jpg (Downloaded 28 times)

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The other speeder based on a Rayonier prototype
Alan 

Attachment: spa2.JPG (Downloaded 27 times)

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This is another John H photo of the Rayonier speeder

Attachment: spdr4.jpg (Downloaded 25 times)

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I need to build several more but want them to be DCC with sound so I need to work that out 
One approach to this might be to emulate the speeder and trailer such as I saw at Engelwood  in 2006. Time will tell on this
Alan 

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This is the photo

Attachment: spengwd906 217.jpg (Downloaded 79 times)

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Alan,

I built a loco similar to the Gibson.






It's battery powered/remote controlled.



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  Attached is a photo of the Cowlitz, Chehalis & Cascade Rwy.'s White railcar in 1933. The CC&C operated out of Chehalis, WA and closed down in 1955 due to a lack of timber.  

  I wasn't aware of this piece of equipment until I stumbled upon this photo while looking for something else.

  Jack M.

Attachment: CC&C White Railcar 1932.jpg (Downloaded 56 times)

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Alan, et.al.

I got started on the mill project.  This is an amazing kit. The parts count is mind boggling.  The instructions say there are over 1,600 parts.  

The quality of the parts is excellent, and the instructions are complete and well written.  I have an issue with some sequencing, but I will be talking to Bill at B.T.S. about that. 

Last night I built the project board and stained the foundation pieces.  I always use project boards.  Typically, I pull one from my stock, but this kit is to large to fit on any that I have laying around.  So it gets a fresh one. 





When I ordered the kit I thought the price was kind of steep, but I didn't want to get involved in the research and planning necessary to scratch build.  

My opinion has changed.  Given the level of research, the parts count, and the quality of the product, the price is a bargain.  You could easily spend as much in materials to scratch build, let alone the research time and costs.  

But it is going to be a long and involved project.  

Reg

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Here is the method I used to glue up the foundation piles.



Now I have to be sure that the alarm is set in the house.  Model Railroaders everywhere now know I have a stash of Floquil paint. 

I am using the alignment lines on the cutting mat to make sure each set of piles is straight.  

If I was scratch building this I would make the piles from individual pieces of dowel.  But I am not and I won't.  Round is a tough shape when everything is cut out using lasers.

A couple of lessons, already.  First, using my traditional india ink/alcohol stain to represent weathered creosote must be done with a bit more care on these laser cut parts.  These parts warped a bit.  This, by the way, is the staining method recommended by B.T.S.  I may use dark grey paint in the future. 
Lesson #2 is that the laser leaves a bit of a swirl burn pattern on the back side of the part.  That needs to be sanded off. 

Lesson #3 is that parts that will be more visible need to have the laser burn sanded off the edges.  That is going to be a time consuming pain the sit-downer.  I will sand down the edges of the outside piles and stain them.  The inside piles will be fine. 

Reg


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Here are the "piles" all glued up and ready for the next step.

This project is going to take a long time.



Reg


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