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Is Tyre Coning Necessary In 'O' Gauge ??
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 Posted: Tue Dec 19th, 2017 05:15 am
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Salada
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Has anyone any opinions or knowledge of the value of wheel tyre coning in On30 (48:1 U.S. 'O' Gauge) ??. 

Does anyone know what the U.S. NMRA recommend regarding tyre profile ?

The following photos are of some wheels off a recently acquired wreck of Si's favourite Brand (Tri-orrible) that is currently going through the Salada Wagon Works shop as part of a recent crazy new scheme dreampt up by the Chavez Extension Directors.

The universal wheel/axle press :




The 'axle' diameter is rather weird - approx 0.0184 ", possibly because it is plastic ?.

This required a new mandrel turning to 0.0185 ". Tyre runout was variable but averaged about .0018 " but sometimes > .002 ". :








The tyre had almost zero coning, about .0005 - .001 ", probably due to wear rather than design.

So, should I cone the tyre or just true it up & reduce the flange thickness (way over even Mr Badmann's limits)  ??.   

Regards,    Michael


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 Posted: Tue Dec 19th, 2017 10:17 am
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Warren G
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tire coning is noticeable in 0 gauge with HO track, with a new Porter, [Bachmann]] ,no others to check on



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 Posted: Tue Dec 19th, 2017 01:28 pm
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Helmut
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@Michael,
of course there are MNRA standards. Wheel/scale standards
For the cone/flange, there's a recommended practice RP 25.
In the small scales ( everything that runs indoors ) coning is just for optical appearance.



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 Posted: Tue Dec 19th, 2017 08:20 pm
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Si.
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" In the small scales ( everything that runs indoors ) coning is just for optical appearance."

Not according to the N.M.R.A.s legendary spec. 'RP25' it isn't ! :old dude:



- - - - - - -



Hi Michael :mex:



Way back when, in 1876, when Si.s favourite brand 'Tri-orrible' were simply just G & J Lines ...

... routing rocking-horses outta M.D.F. ...

... and the scurge of squirted-styrene, was just a 'Salada Wagon Works' NIGHTMARE ! :w:



Little did the Bros. know that Albert freakin' Einstein was gonna come along a century later, with his quantum dial-gauge ! ;)





If you'd mentioned RP25, DCC, 4G, WIFI, M25, LIPO etc. etc. ...

... they'd probably be tryin' to hoik out the b.din' sawdust from their lug'oles mate ! :dope:



Maybe you should go for the Bill Schopp 'Wonky'(TM) Patent elliptical drive !  :-



" Oh! I remember reading a 50s/60s, Model Railroader where he scratchbuilt a B&O 0-4-0T C-16 Docksider in the 1/43 flavor of O scale ...
...
and to give that rocking rolling ... because of very short wheelbase effect,
he drilled one driver with axle hole something like 1/64 or 1/32 off center."



BTW Sal. ... What the hell is that crappy cheapo plastic shaft & gear you've got there ? :shocked:

All my top quality vintage 'Tri-orrible' has Real-Metal(TM) drive components ! :P



:doh:



Si.



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 Posted: Tue Dec 19th, 2017 09:19 pm
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Helmut
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@Si
Go and read paragraph 5 of RP25 out loud. Then, if you understand just a bit of dynamics, give a reason why that small centering force can compensate the drag of a e.g. Standard H0 coupler 



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 Posted: Tue Dec 19th, 2017 10:45 pm
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Si.
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" Go and read paragraph 5 of RP25 out loud.
Then, if you understand just a bit of dynamics,
give a reason why that small centering force can compensate the drag of a e.g. Standard H0 coupler "


Oh well looks like the N.M.R.A. don't know their monkey-railroading from mechanics. :dope:

I've mailed them with your corrected spec. Helmut. ;)



- - - - - - -



Other than that ...

... it seems to ME that the RP25 coning in small-scales is actually VERY important indeed !

I haven't ever noticed any "drag" from a properly installed HO Kadee.






:brill:



Si.



There is of course somewhat of a "dynamic" difference ...

... between a speeding express train of 40' boxcars ...

... and a clunkin' funkin' On30 Porter with a few 4-wheelers ! :slow:



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http://www.slotforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=59295&st=0&a
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 Posted: Wed Dec 20th, 2017 03:24 am
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Salada
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My thanks to Warren, Si & especially Helmut for the NMRA & RP-25 links. I had no idea the darling NMRA put so much info into the public domain. None of the Brit 'Societies' publish anything so detailed - you have to pay your £$Yen to join first.

I see what Si meant, it seems the NMRA think coning is either unimportant OR useful, depending on which page you read.

I was rather puzzled by the NMRA "Wheel CODE" column (what code ?) until I noticed that the "wheel code" is simply the wheel thickness in Imperial. (good 'ole Yankee boys, still sticking to proper 0.001 " dimensions rather than this EuroNapoleon junk).

But, I don't understand why wheel (or tyre) width is so related to all the other spec figures. ????.

I took the NMRA at their word but upped the cone taper from 3 to 5 deg, close to prototype practice (depending on which country, some national systems vary a bit + - ).

I've more or less followed the RP-25 110 spec except I've upped flange depth to .0325 from .030 (for a reason). I greatly increased the root radius between tyre & flange to .025 " due to tooling difficulties ( my initial setting was .003 " but it didn't 'feel' right).
I've also reduced the flange thickness from .030 " to .0215 " ('cos it looks like a proper flange now). Hopefully that won't be a problem in splitting switch toes ?!.

All I have to do now is reduce the Tri-orrible wheels to a reasonable width (RP-25 again I suppose ?).

Photos to follow, forgot to upload before typing.

Regards,     Michael
 

 

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 Posted: Wed Dec 20th, 2017 04:11 am
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Salada
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Si,

To answer you more fully I only THINK this junk that Fleabay sent me for a few pennies is Tri-orrible, it was invoiced as "Triang-Hornby" X-3170 (if that means 'owt ?). The motor & truck frame has no name anywhere.

The armature magnet is an enormous old horseshoe type, couldn't attract swarf from more than about 0.001 " distance. But turn the Volts up to about 16 on a 2A supply and the commutator bursts into a shower of sparks as the thing shoots off the end of the workbench. So there is life of sorts in there somewhere, but not necessarily as we know it Jim. I'm hoping a DCC motor chip & a good overhaul will improve it.

Currently (?!) it is a total fail through the Chavez track switches, hence it's early listing for an 'Intermediate Heavy' in the S.W.W. wheel shop.

There are also 2 much stronger magnets, 1 next to each axle. Probably too far from the commuwhatsit to contribute to any of Mr Faraday's torque ?. Some sort of magnetic track adhesion maybe ? - but surely only effective with steel track ?. Dunno.

Yep, the axle is squirted styrosh*te of some sort, but it does have a lovely helical cut worm gear moulded into it. If I wasn't a lazy sod I'd bore out the placky gear & stick it onto a proper Real-Metal (TM) shaft. Maybe I will if it plays up.

I've "invested" in it purely as a test bed for 'Project X', the Chavez Director's crazy new traction/gauge/business idea (still secret until the poor old Sal.Wag.Works staff try to turn their craziness into some viable form of traction power). Too much said already !.

The puzzled postman (more used to delivering my tax demands) has also delivered a few other "investments" in the last few days. All mostly semi-functioning junk but from a sow's ear may emerge a ......?

Regards,     Michael

 

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 Posted: Wed Dec 20th, 2017 07:30 am
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jtrain
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The NMRA, despite of all its drawbacks, has done a great service to the hobby by helping to standardize HO and N scale trains so that everything runs, more or less, the same.

Tell me Michael, are you able to get Kadee wheels in the UK?  It would be much easier in the long run to replace the wheels rather than re-profile them to RP25 standards.

--James



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 Posted: Wed Dec 20th, 2017 03:45 pm
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Helmut
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The problem is that Michael needs 0n3 Code110 ( or thereabouts ) wheelsets. H0/00 Code 110 can be obtained from here



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