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Questions On Installing My 'DelTang' R.C. Gear ?
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 Posted: Mon Jan 29th, 2018 09:33 am
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Nice Guy Eddie
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Hi Rick


Thanks for your message

As I said more than pleased to help you out


I knew these guys here would have all the answers you needed

They know more about radiowaves than Marconi !


But so much and so quick is just incredible

Freerails RC Forum is where its at


:f:


Eddie



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 Posted: Mon Jan 29th, 2018 02:23 pm
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Rick Dow
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@ Dan3192

Hi Dan,  

Concerning Order of Installation   So, if I have this right, working forward from the battery, next in line would be this Battery Management Board, then next an On/Off switch and finally the Del Tang Receiver itself - meaning I run power from the battery, through the battery management board, then to the On/Off switch and finally to the receiver itself - then on to the motor in the loco.

Concerning Battery Wiring to the Battery Management Board   If I'm reading the diagram correctly, it seems to indicate that the the two outside (power and ground) wires from the 2 cell Lipo will be soldered accordingly to the B+ and B- pads. Then the middle wire will be soldered to the pad marked BM (I'm assuming BM stands for battery management.)

Concerning the continuation of power wires from the Battery Management Board to the On/Off Switch. I would solder a black and red wire to the pads marked P+ and P- on the Management Board and then run it to the appropriate tabs on the On/Off switch.

(In my particular case, if I use a Del tang RX62 Receiver with a built in Reed Switch, I would skip the installation of the On/Off switch - correct?)

Thanks

Rick

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 Posted: Mon Jan 29th, 2018 04:15 pm
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Bob R
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Rick,
Look at the picture at Post #3 on the thread before yours "Updating My 7/8n2".
I have a reed switch to turn on/off the receiver.  Power wires from battery protection board to RX61 through reed switch.  My charge plug is direct to the battery protection board without being switched.  I don't use a DPDT switch to toggle between the receiver and charge jack.
I found 10 battery protection circuits for $20 with free shipping on Ebay.



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 Posted: Mon Jan 29th, 2018 08:36 pm
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dan3192
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Hi Rick,

Re Order of Installation, you are correct. The board is between the batteries and switch. During normal operation power flow is as follows:

Batteries: 2-Panasonic NCR18650B cylindrical Li-ion cells (3.7V, 3,400mAh ea.). I use these in narrow body engines. For wide body units, I optionally use Keeppower 26650 Li-ion cells (3.7V, 4,200 or 5,200mAh). I use Keystone battery holders.
Battery Management Board: 2S w/balance, 6A max. Available on eBay from several suppliers. The ones I currently use are 17 x 40 x 3.5 (mm).
Switch: Mini slide switch, DPDT or SPDT. Available from Radio Shack, eBay, many other sources. Mine are from Miniatronics, Model 38-100-05. You can also use a toggle switch or non-shorting charging jack. The switch ("Off/Charging" position) directs charging power to the board and batteries. In the opposite position ("On" or "Power" position), the switch directs power from the batteries and board to the receiver. 
Voltage Regulator: Pololu #2116 step-up 9V (U3V12F9) voltage regulator. I use these wherever I can to maintain a 9V input to the receiver as battery voltage drops during use. I realize there is an efficiency loss of 5-15% or so, but operationally speaking, the good far outweighs the bad. I have enough power for several operating sessions, so this is not a factor. 6V, 12V, and step-down types also available. 
Receiver: DelTang Rx61x. You know about these, so 'nuff said except I use the 61 series because of the extra pads for accessories.

Note: Just noticed the time...sorry, have an appointment shortly...to be continued!
Dan

Last edited on Mon Jan 29th, 2018 08:38 pm by dan3192

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 Posted: Mon Jan 29th, 2018 08:54 pm
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Toeffelholm
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Rick Dow wrote: I am using a HITEC Mini X1   

This is knowledge I not only didn't have, but probably also an example of what is NOT available yet on YouTube etc. but I assume will be.

Is this special Balancing Chord something you have made up yourself or is it commercially available?  

The charging wires leading from the charger to the battery are typically thicker gauge, than are the two outside wires of the Balancing Chord. Is this a factor?   Can I simply splice into the two outside wires on the balancing chord, add pin connectors and just plug them into the charging ports on the charger?

Hope I made sense there.

Rick

Rick,
Roughly explained, the 2-wire cord has thicker wires, because it is intended to transport the current to the motor and the current while charging. This current can be rather high in "standard" RC applications, like cars, boats etc. Also you can charge most lipos rather fast, applying a high charging current. For this reason, the main plug of a Lipo has such thick wires. 
So, if you charge a lipo with low current of about up to 1A or so, theres no problem using the thinner wires of the balancer plug. There a special small balance chargers that are not able to "fast charge" but for this they can feed the lipo via the balance plug alone.
The biggest lipo I have, has 1200mAh I think, and my charger charges with "1C" that means 1200mA. Works without problems. (In case of a 850mAh lipo 1C means a charging current of 850mA  and so on)
If you want to use your charger you have to solder 2 additional wires to the outer wires of a balancer cord to connect to the charging socket of your charger. To buy or to make a balancer cord with the fitting plugs can be a little bit tricky. You would have to do some research for this.
But, it's a good advice to use these protection boards. And the protection board shown by Dan is already able to balance your lipo. So in that case, on the one hand, you simply don't need your chargers balancer socket, and on the other hand this additional electronic of the protection board will probably disturb the charging process if the balancing feature of your charger is used as well.

Juergen






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 Posted: Tue Jan 30th, 2018 01:25 am
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dan3192
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Rick,

OK, regarding before and after Battery Management Board Wiring, you are again correct, but suggest you think of BM as being for the Battery Middle wire. 

As to the Reed switch and eliminating the double-throw switch as you described, this might be OK. I'm assuming you would use a charging jack wired in parallel with the board's "P" connections. Keep in mind the power requirements of your engine with respect to the size of the contacts on an assumed 1/8" or smaller charging jack. For my arrangement, a double-throw switch is needed to prevent unwanted power through the voltage regulator and receiver while charging.   

And Juergen's point is well taken. The battery management board discussed here requires two wires delivering 8.4-9V. That's the beauty of these boards...just two wires to balance charge 2, 3, or more LiPo or Li-ion batteries in series. BTW, if one has the room, and you have four batteries from the same batch, you can use a 2S2P arrangement with these boards to increase capacity and run time. 

A final point (not aimed at you, Rick) in posting all this is my strong desire to find a reliable way of balance charging batteries without wiring, or dealing with dirty track, or having to remove them from my engines. The only two wires needed approach fits well with induction charging methods. I'm at this now for over a year and it is very much a challenge, but doable. A company, similar to Texas Instruments, has loaned me parts and test equipment and the results have been very promising. I hope to post comments on this by late Spring. 

Thanks for reading my posts. After six years of BPRC, I still believe this is the future for model railroading. 

Dan         

Last edited on Tue Jan 30th, 2018 01:26 am by dan3192

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 Posted: Tue Jan 30th, 2018 07:33 am
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dan3192
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Rick,

This shows the setup we have been talking about. This is a 3S battery arrangement. For a 2S arrangement, just figure a wire replacing the center battery, and a BM will replace the B1 and B2 on the board.





And here is a link to an interactive web page with wiring diagrams that cover a wide variety of battery configurations, including balance wiring. I posted this on another topic a while back. This should be very helpful to you.

http://scriptasylum.com/rc_speed/lipo.html

Dan





 

Last edited on Tue Jan 30th, 2018 07:37 am by dan3192

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 Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2018 03:11 am
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Rick Dow
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Thanks Dan,

     This subject of wiring and moving to Battery Power and Radio Control has been a difficult one for me to grasp - to even get to the point where I'm at now - which has a long way to go before I feel somewhat comfortable. 

     I've a background in modelling not electronics. I'm not alone. The guys on here have been really helpful to me with their knowledge and their ability to answer my specific questions and lay their hands on various urls on the web that provide additional details. 

     Battery power is also a topic that never fails to bring a reaction from the few other model railroaders that I know and also the person who runs the hobby shop I frequent. They are mostly negative to the idea and it's tough for me to figure why. 

     Many don't really understand the technology but are negative anyway. 

     Battery power and radio control is one of those few changes that comes along that doesn't really hurt anyone currently involved in modelling or planning to be. It may not be good news for a few manufacturers but in my view, they could embrace this technology as an alternative and move forward selling both systems.


    I want to thank you for all the great help and hope to hear more. Any and all info here is a big help to all those that are new to this subject,  even if it's only useful as background material.

Rick

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 Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2018 10:45 am
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davecttr
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Rick Dow wrote: Thanks Dan,

     This subject of wiring and moving to Battery Power and Radio Control has been a difficult one for me to grasp - to even get to the point where I'm at now - which has a long way to go before I feel somewhat comfortable. 

     I've a background in modelling not electronics. I'm not alone. The guys on here have been really helpful to me with their knowledge and their ability to answer my specific questions and lay their hands on various urls on the web that provide additional details. 

     Battery power is also a topic that never fails to bring a reaction from the few other model railroaders that I know and also the person who runs the hobby shop I frequent. They are mostly negative to the idea and it's tough for me to figure why. 

     Many don't really understand the technology but are negative anyway. 


     Battery power and radio control is one of those few changes that comes along that doesn't really hurt anyone currently involved in modelling or planning to be. It may not be good news for a few manufacturers but in my view, they could embrace this technology as an alternative and move forward selling both systems.


    I want to thank you for all the great help and hope to hear more. Any and all info here is a big help to all those that are new to this subject,  even if it's only useful as background material.

Rick
I have met different reactions ranging from disbelief to outright rejection. As far as users are concerned there is a lot of ignorance out there, many believe lipo batteries are dangerous (you can use different chemistries) or the batteries won't last long enough etc etc. Then there is fear, fear that their existing large investment in say DCC will be rendered obsolete even when it still works perfectly but they will feel the need to change, maybe for them the shiny new technology is important.. One guy said he would not even consider BPRC because you could not convert a small 0-4-0 loco, so I converted one and he did not reply. someone else wanted to enter their railway room, hit one switch and have all 100+ locos ready to go instantly. Recharging batteries is far to time consuming so they spend hours cleaning the track and chasing down mysterious electrical faults.
The manufacturers are not happy because of their investment in existing hardware.
One guy stated that BPRC will never become main stream for various reasons including that battery technology will not improve enough. There are issues with say 'N' scale.
My prediction is that direct radio control from the 'throttle' to the loco will become standard and power will be your choice between track or battery plus auto switching between the two. there will be battery recharge options too ranging from removing them like I do to charging on the track or via induction etc.



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 Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2018 02:10 pm
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Tony Walsham
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Nice to see the smaller scales catching up with what has been the norm in the larger scales for many years.:thumb:

Over the years many surveys have been done comparing methods of powering and controlling Large Scale locos.
Whilst regular track powered DC is the clear leader what is interesting is, DCC has never caught up with BPRC.



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