Freerails Home 

Freerails IS ACCEPTING new Members ... To join Freerails ... See how to Register as a Member in the 'Joining Freerails' Forum

 Moderated by: W C Greene  
AuthorPost
Steve P
Registered
 

Joined: Fri Apr 20th, 2018
Location:  
Posts: 64
Status: 
Offline
Hi,

This is a continuation of the project first shown in:

http://www.freerails.com/view_topic.php?id=8137&forum_id=61&page=1

It is more or less complete with the exception of the selection and installation
of a battery. 
A Pico 18V/5.3A power supply is filling in for now.

I am just going to add jpg attachments and see how that turns out.

Steve


Attachment: IMG_0222.JPG (Downloaded 205 times)

Steve P
Registered
 

Joined: Fri Apr 20th, 2018
Location:  
Posts: 64
Status: 
Offline

First image shows the front of the TIU (track interface unit).
It had to be mounted at the 45 degree angle to get it to fit inside the boxcar, and its tight.

Second image is of the battery connection panel on the control car.
The TIU and WIU are both switched.
The circuit board above the switches converts the 18V from the battery to 5V to power the WIU.

The third image shows the engine connection panel.
Power/control (DCS) connect to the engine from here, and can be switched on/off.

The fourth image shows the back side of the WIU board, and connecting cables between the TIU and WIU.

The fifth image shows the other end of the WIU.
The WPS button and antenna coax are visible, and can be accessed from the sliding boxcar door on that side.
Note that there is a RESET button in the middle top of the board.
It had a 1" tall "button" that I had to cut off to about 1/4" to keep it from interfering with the backside of the TIU board.

The sixth image is of the front of the battery boxcar and rear of the control boxcar.
Note the use of Anderson PowerPole connectors.

The seventh image is the front end of the control boxcar, ie. the engine attachment point.


Steve


Attachment: IMG_0234.JPG (Downloaded 201 times)

Steve P
Registered
 

Joined: Fri Apr 20th, 2018
Location:  
Posts: 64
Status: 
Offline
Image #2

Attachment: IMG_0236.JPG (Downloaded 196 times)

Steve P
Registered
 

Joined: Fri Apr 20th, 2018
Location:  
Posts: 64
Status: 
Offline
Image #3:

Attachment: IMG_0237.JPG (Downloaded 194 times)

Steve P
Registered
 

Joined: Fri Apr 20th, 2018
Location:  
Posts: 64
Status: 
Offline
Image #4:

Attachment: IMG_0238.JPG (Downloaded 192 times)

Steve P
Registered
 

Joined: Fri Apr 20th, 2018
Location:  
Posts: 64
Status: 
Offline
Image #5:


Attachment: IMG_0239.JPG (Downloaded 190 times)

Steve P
Registered
 

Joined: Fri Apr 20th, 2018
Location:  
Posts: 64
Status: 
Offline
Image #6:

Attachment: IMG_0225.JPG (Downloaded 188 times)

Steve P
Registered
 

Joined: Fri Apr 20th, 2018
Location:  
Posts: 64
Status: 
Offline
Image #7:

Attachment: IMG_0230.JPG (Downloaded 186 times)

Steve P
Registered
 

Joined: Fri Apr 20th, 2018
Location:  
Posts: 64
Status: 
Offline
 
Hi,

I have started a new thread, for track planning:

http://www.freerails.com/view_topic.php?id=8181&forum_id=52

???

I cannot find what looks to be an appropriate forum for battery system design in the current list. 
Where should I start this thread?

Steve P


Si.
Moderator


Joined: Thu Feb 23rd, 2012
Location: London
Posts: 4656
Status: 
Offline
" I cannot find what looks to be an appropriate forum for battery system design
in the current list. 
Where should I start this thread? "


Hi Steve  :wave:



Everything battery related tends to be in the R.C. Forum.

So that would be the best place to talk about batteries.


There are a lot of experienced battery users there ...  :brill:

... both small-scale & large-scale, as you want.



You're gonna need a few batteries with that beast ... I mean 'Boy'.  ;)



Looks like you've been busy on the track planning as well.  :thumb:



:)



Si.



Steve P
Registered
 

Joined: Fri Apr 20th, 2018
Location:  
Posts: 64
Status: 
Offline
 
Si,

Which is the thread I'm on here, so...

After researching on the web all day I think I'm going for:

https://www.maxamps.com/hyperion-eos0720inet3-ac-dc-balance-charger

https://www.maxamps.com/lipo-4850-6s-22-2v-battery-pack

Raymond suggests 22V as opposed to 18v
He measures stall/slip current at 3 amps, so I figure I'll be using more like 2 most of the time.
This figures to about 2 hours runtime.
If I'm happy with the initial battery experience I'll buy a 2nd and keep it charging while using the other.

Any holes in the above theories?

Steve P


Si.
Moderator


Joined: Thu Feb 23rd, 2012
Location: London
Posts: 4656
Status: 
Offline
Hi Steve  :wave:



Yes ... Continuing your Topic here, is good.  :thumb:

The loco, R.C. gear & batteries, all in 1 Topic makes sense. 



As for the type & size of battery-pack suitable for your loco, & chargers etc. ...

... Tony Walsham is probably one of the most experienced here, regarding Large Scale requirements.



Tony ... H E L P !  ???


If Tony doesn't know about it, when it comes to Large Scale train batteries etc. ...  :brill:

... it probably isn't worth knowing.  :)



:cool:



Si.


Tony Walsham
Registered


Joined: Tue Apr 8th, 2014
Location: Casino NSW, Australia
Posts: 247
Status: 
Offline
Hehe.
Flattery will get you everywhere Si.

I would caution against Li-Po cells if they are to be permanently mounted in the trail car.
Li-Po cells are rarely fitted with protection pcb's and therefore must be removed for external balance charging.
Personally, I would be sticking with Cylindrical Li-Ion packs.
A 6s1p pack would be a minimum with a suitable protection pcb fitted in the pack. 
They can be left in situ for charging.

Cell capacity is commonly 2,600 mah. Higher capacity cells are generally more expensive.
Beware of unknown brands. Quite often false claims have been made.

To increase run time they can be doubled up depending on space available. That would make a pack 6s2p.
All Li-Ion packs need a smart charger that can handle 6 cells.
They are not so common as 4 cell chargers and as a result cost a bit more.


Steve P
Registered
 

Joined: Fri Apr 20th, 2018
Location:  
Posts: 64
Status: 
Offline
 
Hi,

I plan to make them quickly removable so that I can be charging one while using the other.
I will keep both in a metal ammo can when not in use.
I will look into adding protection pcbs.

I don't want to double up because of the weight. 
The one I reference above is 1.5 lbs. which will cost me almost a boxcar in pull weight.
Needing to make them quickly changeable,
will be more incentive towards the goal of making them easily store-able in the metal can when not in use.

These go for a premium price but actually come with a "lifetime" warranty, where warranty is 100% first year, 50%  after that. 
I know the perils of cheap Chinese batteries!


dan3192
Registered
 

Joined: Thu Oct 14th, 2010
Location: Connecticut USA
Posts: 215
Status: 
Offline
I've been running HO scale BPRC engines for the last 5 years. A fellow modeler has asked me to power up a G scale engine for his backyard railroad. Early on I decided to use Li-ion cylindrical cells and have to decide which of two cell types to use. 

For moderate use I can use Panasonic's 18650 x 3400mAh cells in a 6S1P arrangement which will provide about 75Wh of power with a max. recommended current draw of about 3.4A. Peak current draw is 6.8A. The six-pack measures approx. 6 x 4 x 7 cm. Cost is around US$39 with battery holders.

For heavier usage in terms of hours or load or grades, I can use Keeppower's 26650 x 5200mAh cells in the same arrangement which will provide about 115Wh. These cells have a max. constant current rating of 15A and a peak current rating of 30A. This six-pack measures around 8 x 6 x 7 cm. Cost is approx. US$65 with battery holders.

I've found that higher constant or peak current ratings in a battery have the advantage of starting and running better under load due to less voltage sag. The trade off is higher current capacity batteries usually have less total mAh capacity due to different chemistry. 

For example, there is also available a Keeppower 26650 battery with a 4200mAh capacity, but with a constant and peak current rating of 30A and 50A respectively.
Depending on how my friend wants to run, we should be able to decide which way to go. 

In any case, since I have been using both of these batteries for some time , I can highly recommend them in terms of stated ratings and quality of manufacture.

Hope this helps.

Dan    

Last edited on Tue Jul 10th, 2018 01:29 am by dan3192

Steve P
Registered
 

Joined: Fri Apr 20th, 2018
Location:  
Posts: 64
Status: 
Offline
 
Hi,

So you convinced me to try the Li-ion option.

Ordered 6 of the Keep Power 5000mA cells, holders and charger.
Couldn't find a "protection pcb board", suggestions for a model/source?

Also found that all the 4/6 bay chargers on Amazon only handle two 26650 at a time...
Suggestions for true 6 bay 26650 charger?

Steve P


dan3192
Registered
 

Joined: Thu Oct 14th, 2010
Location: Connecticut USA
Posts: 215
Status: 
Offline
 
6S battery protection board:

6S Battery Protection Board

For a "true" 6 bay charger, I'm using a Solo 80 6S charger.
Don't know if they are still available, around US$90 with adjustable (slow, of course) charging rates for Lipo, Li-ion, NiMH.
After installation, you'll need the "traditional" 7-wire connection from your engine to the charger.  

Dan


Last edited on Wed Jul 11th, 2018 01:09 am by

Steve P
Registered
 

Joined: Fri Apr 20th, 2018
Location:  
Posts: 64
Status: 
Offline
 
Hi,

This is where I get confused...

Are these bcm boards used for building battery packs that can be balance charged as a set?

I originally thought they were for protecting the batteries during discharge/use,
perhaps for safety (ie to prevent them from overheating).

I currently plan to install them individually in battery holders inside the boxcar. 
For charging I would remove and place individually into bays of a Li-ion battery charger(s).

I discovered that the charger I ordered, although "6 bay", can only handle 2 26650s at a time. 
Ordered from Amazon Prime, so it will go back without cost to me :2t:

So bottom line, how to properly charge 6 individual 26650s at a time, with a quality charger that will extend their life,
and,
how to properly install/use in a boxcar without creating a safety/fire hazard running thru my forest.

Steve P


dan3192
Registered
 

Joined: Thu Oct 14th, 2010
Location: Connecticut USA
Posts: 215
Status: 
Offline
Hi,

I've created some confusion here by being too brief. Let's back up a little. There are some options.

With those six batteries, you can make a battery pack like they use for race cars and aircraft; 2 high current wires for running your engine and 7 low current wires for balancing the cells. You would likely need to remove the pack and recharge it with a balance charger, like my Solo 80 or similar.

As you mentioned, you can charge the batteries individually and check each one periodically to be sure they are performing as expected. In this case you won't be balance charging, just monitoring battery performance every 4th or 5th time you recharge. But you'll probably want a couple more battery chargers for convenience.

Another way is to use the previously mentioned BMS protection board. Unfortunately, this board does not seem to balance charge, so periodic checking of the individual batteries is needed (for my 2S setup I have a battery checker that plugs into the balance leads that tells me overall voltage and individual cell voltage; it's good for up to 8 cells). But again, with this protection board, via its 2 main leads, you will want a SPDT or DPDT switch to select battery power for operation or external power for charging. The board specs. tell you the voltage required for charging. I think it's 25.5V, so you will need a source for this voltage for this particular BMS protection board.

I think the best approach for you at this time is getting 2 more chargers and removing the batteries for charging. I don't have any idea how they perform, so don't know how much I can trust these boards with my equipment.

Remember to slow charge for longer battery life and to store unused Li-ions at around 3.5V in a cool environment.

Dan

Steve P
Registered
 

Joined: Fri Apr 20th, 2018
Location:  
Posts: 64
Status: 
Offline
Dan,

Thats more or less what I thought.

Store at 3.5v,  what is the minimum voltage before causing harm?
Will my engine slow down noticeably before harm's point?
Or do I need to add a voltage measuring tap and/or meter to the boxcar?

Steve P
 

dan3192
Registered
 

Joined: Thu Oct 14th, 2010
Location: Connecticut USA
Posts: 215
Status: 
Offline
Steve,

The "normal" minimum is around 3V, but I've seen protection boards touting 2.5V, a bit too low for me. My DelTang receivers shut off at 3V for a 1S arrangement, 6V for a 2S arrangement, etc.

Voltage drop-off with Lithium type batteries is a little worse than with NiMH types, which is why I prefer using a voltage regulator to maintain a constant voltage. IMO, since batteries have more capacity today than just a few years ago, I think performance is more important than the 10% or so loss in efficiency because of the regulator.

A 2S arrangement I'm using with Pamasonic 18650 x 3400mAh batteries (and 12V step-up voltage regulator) has 3 wires out to the side of the trailing (passenger) car. I use this connection to both slowly balance charge the batteries and occasionaly check cell condition. It is NOT recommended to fast charge batteries using the balance wire connection. eBay has several battery checkers that will do the job, around US$3-4.

Dan

Last edited on Thu Jul 12th, 2018 04:29 am by dan3192

dan3192
Registered
 

Joined: Thu Oct 14th, 2010
Location: Connecticut USA
Posts: 215
Status: 
Offline
 
Steve,

Here's the performance curve for the 26650 battery.
If you know how much power your engine uses, you can estimate run time.
The slower the drain on your battery, the less it will heat up, which promotes longer battery life.  

Dan





Steve P
Registered
 

Joined: Fri Apr 20th, 2018
Location:  
Posts: 64
Status: 
Offline
Dan,

Getting close...

I am using an MTH Track Interface Unit that is rated for 18v nominal, 24v max, 10 amps max  input.
6 x 4.2 = 25.2. TOO MUCH.

So I am thinking about getting one of these:
https://www.jacobsparts.com/items/DCMOD-C/

Setting the output to 22v,
setting the under voltage protection to 20.4v (6 * 3.4v),
and current limit to about 5 amps.
I will also fuse the output where it exits the boxcar.

Does this sound about right?

update:
battery & holders arrived, batteries about 3.6v each,
put together a 6S strip, total 21.8v

Runs my HO BigBoy quite nicely.  :glad:

Steve P



Last edited on Sun Jul 22nd, 2018 08:45 pm by Steve P

dan3192
Registered
 

Joined: Thu Oct 14th, 2010
Location: Connecticut USA
Posts: 215
Status: 
Offline
Sounds good to me. At least it gets you started and you can make modifications later.

You may want to keep in mind the 6S2P arrangement Tony mentioned earlier, in view of the steep grades you anticipate.

Give us an update when you can. I'm particularly interested in battery performance under load.

Dan

Steve P
Registered
 

Joined: Fri Apr 20th, 2018
Location:  
Posts: 64
Status: 
Offline
Hi.

The battery car is for real now:

The circuit board on the end is an up/down voltage regulator.  It keeps the voltage @ 22v regardless of the input.  It cuts the output when the batteries drain to 18.8 volts (3.13 per cell average).

The side board in front of a sliding door  is the voltage/capacity monitor, see next picture.

My G scale BigBoy has arrived at Ray's Electric Trains, he is doing the final tuneup.  Hopefully will have it by next week.  In the meantime I will be trying to get enough real track put down to actually run it a few feet.

Steve P

Attachment: bat1.JPG (Downloaded 73 times)

Last edited on Tue Jul 31st, 2018 01:56 am by Steve P

Steve P
Registered
 

Joined: Fri Apr 20th, 2018
Location:  
Posts: 64
Status: 
Offline
Hi again,

Someday I'll figure out how to attach more than one file...


Attachment: bat2.JPG (Downloaded 73 times)

Helmut
Registered


Joined: Sun Feb 17th, 2013
Location: Friedberg, Germany
Posts: 1076
Status: 
Offline
Easy,
first upload them into the gallery and then you can insert as many pictures as you wish.

Steve P
Registered
 

Joined: Fri Apr 20th, 2018
Location:  
Posts: 64
Status: 
Offline
Hi,

Got a couple images into my gallery, but when I try to use them I get:

"Sorry, your browser does not support that operation."

Steve P

Helmut
Registered


Joined: Sun Feb 17th, 2013
Location: Friedberg, Germany
Posts: 1076
Status: 
Offline
 
You have to start a reply or whatever, open your gallery in the menu, enlarge the thumbnail to original size, and copy the image address.
Then you select 'Insert Image' in the reply menu, and paste the address into the address field.
Off you go.

Steve P
Registered
 

Joined: Fri Apr 20th, 2018
Location:  
Posts: 64
Status: 
Offline
Hi,

This came from my gallery via the above instructions, thanx

Steve P

Last edited on Fri Aug 3rd, 2018 09:16 pm by Steve P

Steve P
Registered
 

Joined: Fri Apr 20th, 2018
Location:  
Posts: 64
Status: 
Offline
Hi,

The BigBoy is here and running on batteries on the outside track [toast]

2 pictures follow.

Steve P

Last edited on Wed Aug 8th, 2018 09:39 pm by Steve P

Steve P
Registered
 

Joined: Fri Apr 20th, 2018
Location:  
Posts: 64
Status: 
Offline







slateworks
Registered


Joined: Wed Oct 6th, 2010
Location: Twickenham, United Kingdom
Posts: 705
Status: 
Online
 
That's a pretty impressive train Steve.
Do we get to see a video?


Steve P
Registered
 

Joined: Fri Apr 20th, 2018
Location:  
Posts: 64
Status: 
Offline
 
Hi,

I'm trying to figure out how to do that. 
The only serviceable video camera I have is my iPad, but that is running my MTH app, so kinda a catch 22 problem.

Another issue is that as the track main line is unfinished it would be pretty easy to run the whole consist into a 5' canyon,
trying to switch back and forth between control and video would be risky.
:bang:
I'd like to give a shout-out to Ray's Electric Trains who sold me the BigBoy. 
He added better smoke and sound, as well as doing the engine/tender portion of the battery conversion. 
I hooked up my control and battery cars and it just worked (more or less).
There were a few minor issues but Ray worked them all out for me about as fast as I could email him a description of the problem.

Steve P


Helmut
Registered


Joined: Sun Feb 17th, 2013
Location: Friedberg, Germany
Posts: 1076
Status: 
Offline
 
Provided there's an MTH App for Android, too ( bet it will ), do like I did and get a cheap-as-dirt 5" Samsung clone from alibaba.
This one I used exclusively for WiFi control apps ( even wrote my own ).
Quit the stuff now, as a ride-on 9.5" ga. loco is definitely more fun.

Steve P
Registered
 

Joined: Fri Apr 20th, 2018
Location:  
Posts: 64
Status: 
Offline
Hi,

Here;s a video I just did:

http://evvette.net/trains/tunneltest.webm

Steve P

slateworks
Registered


Joined: Wed Oct 6th, 2010
Location: Twickenham, United Kingdom
Posts: 705
Status: 
Online
Thanks and a great camera position Steve. Against the background of real scenery it looks very neat - but I hope you managed to stop the train as well as the video before the end of the track! :w:

Steve P
Registered
 

Joined: Fri Apr 20th, 2018
Location:  
Posts: 64
Status: 
Offline
Slateworks,

I did feel like a one-armed paperhanger...

One of my winter projects is to develop signals/semaphores that I can see from the patio that accurately reflect the current setting of switches.  I want to play with circuits that auto switch when a train approaches, etc.

If anyone can suggest a source of 1/32 scale semaphore towers it would be appreciated.

Steve P

Steve P
Registered
 

Joined: Fri Apr 20th, 2018
Location:  
Posts: 64
Status: 
Offline
Hi,

I just finished installing an outdoor wifi access point for the setup.  Tested and working all around the house and depot area.  Walked up to the future site of the Ogden depot, 450', and was able to ping the engine as it sat on the test track inside the house.  This wifi is a mesh network design, so I should be able to setup up another unit at Ogden and reach all the way to Seattle, another 450'.  I feel a lot better about the wifi portion of the design now.

So on to the next step.  I have a pre-order for an MTH GS-4 placed.  I am thinking about how to get batteries, TIU and WIU into a Coastal Daylight passenger car.  Might try using the GS-4 in DCC mode and using a non-MTH wifi track controller.

Does anyone have experiences with DCC and MTH PS3 engines?

There would be several advantages: smaller sizes, and more importantly compatibility with JMRI.  I am planning on the complete setup using control blocks and interlocking plants.  I want to computerize this all.  JMRI would be a big step in that direction (I think).

Steve P


UltraBB 1.172 Copyright © 2007-2016 Data 1 Systems