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Rick Dow
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My last two DelTang conversions have been failures.


Tonight's failure is as follows:

I finished up the conversion and plugged in the 2 cell Li-Po Battery.
The LED on the DelTang RX61-2 receiver immediately began blinking. 

Since I had the Transmitter nearby,
I grabbed it and waited until the receiver began blinking rapidly.

When it did, I depressed the BIND push button on the transmitter (DT Tx21).
After a few moments I pressed the power button on the transmitter.
The LED on the receiver stopped flashing and stayed on steadily. 
 
All Good ... or so I thought.


When I opened the throttle, nothing happened.
There appears to be no connection between the transmitter and the locomotive.
I have checked all the wiring connections. 

So, I turned off the transmitter. 

Then I picked up my DelTang pencil shaped magnet,
to turn off what passes for a reed switch on the Rx61-2,
and it would not turn off like in my other installations. 

I had to unplug the battery from the receiver, to get the thing turned off.


For what its worth, this installation was on an Alco diesel by Atlas,
that I was hooking up for the grandchildren.
I definitely had removed all of the track pick-up wiring.

Any idea what I'm doing wrong?    


Thanks

Rick


Rick Dow
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Last month, I attempted unsuccessfully to convert a Mantua 2-6-6-2 logger.


I will say that this locomotive was a bear to take apart and put back together.
I know for a fact that I disconnected all the track pick-up wiring and brass axle sliders.

Then I re-wired the two motor leads and fed the wiring back into the tender,
after which I did the usual conversion to a Rx61-2 receiver. 

After binding the transmitter I assumed I was in business.
But when I opened up the throttle there was no reaction. 


I have three other locomotives that work splendidly with exactly the same installation process,
so these past two failures are a mystery that needs solving.


Rick


W C Greene
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Howdy Rick

I'm not sure about the problem,
but Mantua locos with the stock open frame motors (and other brands also)
have one of the brushes "wired" to the metal frame.

You might try isolating the motor(s) from the frames,
and see if that fixes the issue.
Keep us informed.

Woodie


Rick Dow
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Aha, okay Woodie.

I will try my best to check. 
Not great at this stuff. 

I'm assuming that in order to isolate the motor,
I will make sure there are no soldered wires or strips of brass,
leaving the motor and connecting to the frame somehow.

Rick


fallen
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Hi Rick,

A couple of suggestions to check.


Binding is usually quite straightforward,
the only time I have had problems has been when there is a strong WiFi signal in the area,
which seems sometimes to confuse the Rx.

This has happened in an exhibition hall, when the fix was to go outside to bind the loco,
and next to my desktop PC, when the solution was to turn the PC off.


On the magnetic switch, my Rx has one but it only turns the Rx on,
you have to hold down the Bind button on the Tx for a few seconds to turn it off.

Of course, if the Tx and Rx have failed to bind this will not work.

You really need a normal switch as well to turn the loco off before storing it,
as the Rx draws a small current even when the on board switch is off.


Frank


davecttr
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I also had binding problems when near my computer and my WIFI hub,
plus surprisingly my desk lamp.

Paradoxically it is sometimes better to increase the distance,
between the Tx and Rx when binding.

The Lemon 6 channel DSM2 Rx's I am using in my coupler project,
have instructions actually recommend an increased distance,
as being too close can confuse the Rx.


Rick Dow
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Thanks so much guys.


I suppose the question I would immediately ask is this ....

In this recent unsuccessful installation,
when I turned on the transmitter after holding the bind button down for a few seconds,
the rapidly blinking LED on the Receiver, immediately changed to steady light.

In the past, when my receiver's LED reacted in that manner,
it was an indicator that binding had been successful. 


Am I perhaps incorrect assuming,
that the change from rapid blinking, to a steady light,
is an indicator of successful Binding?


Thanks

Rick


fallen
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Rick,

Usually when binding, the sequence is from slow blinking to rapid blinking,

then when you switch on the Tx a short period of slow blinking on both Rx and Tx,

then steady on both.

Frank


davecttr
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fallen wrote:
Usually when binding, the sequence is from slow blinking to rapid blinking,

then when you switch on the Tx a short period of slow blinking on both Rx and Tx,

then steady on both.


That's what happens when I bind a Rx.

Am I right in thinking that the Rx is actually transmitting during the bind process?


davecttr
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Thinks - check with 'paperclick' to confirm that your RX's have the Selecta feature disabled.




Rick Dow
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Dave,

Thank you very much for replying.


The "transmitters" I buy purposely, do not have the Selecta dial feature.  


You mentioned that my "receiver" required the "Selecta" feature be disabled.  
You mention that I should check with "paperclick" to ensure this.

Are you ready?  :)         
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about!  :)

Please educate me.


Thanks

Rick


davecttr
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OK, your Rx61-2 should have SELECTA disabled if you are using it with a Tx21,
but it might be worth checking that your Rx are configured this way.


Go to

http://www.deltang.co.uk/paperclip-v611.htm

for instructions on how to check or make changes if needed.


You connect the P1 and P3 pads together with wire,
then switch the Rx on and disconnect the wire.

The LED will come on solid,
and flicker once a second, if SELECTA is disabled.


It might not be the problem, but worth checking.


W C Greene
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Again, a "grounded" open frame motor may just be your problem here.
There are solutions to this if you want to know.

Woodie



fallen
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davecttr wrote
Am I right in thinking that the Rx is actually transmitting during the bind process?


Dave,

The "Transmitter" and "Receiver" are really out of date terms.
 
They talk to each other, so both are transmitting and receiving,
certainly during binding and I think also when connecting each time they are turned on.

David T was developing data feedback between Tx and Rx,
so the Tx could display the battery charge level in the Rx, for example.

Frank


fallen
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Rick,

The Rx only responds if the Selecta is set to its position on the Tx.

But if you do not connect the Selecta input on the transmitter when you build it,
then the output to the Rx will basically be random noise,
and so the Rx, if it has Selecta enabled, will not respond, as it never gets the correct signal.

So you may have to disable the Selecta function on the Rx as Dave described.

Frank


Andy R
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Rick

Things to check, assuming tx and rx are bound:
- tx on rx on, rx LED lit solid, no flashing.
- tx off, rx LED should go off and come back on again when tx on.

If either of the above checks fail, then something is wrong with the tx/rx communication.
If the rx LED is flashing, what is the pattern?

Tx21 does not have anything connected to the Selecta channel,
so even if the rx had Selecta enabled, it will still work OK with the Tx21.

A motor connected to the M outputs should start when you move the throttle control away from stop.
If you move the throttle control slowly through the entire range, and the motor does not move,
does the rx LED flash at all while you are moving the throttle?

The reason for moving the throttle control through the entire range,
is that rx could be configured for centre-off throttle,
if you are expecting it to be low-off and (in rare cases),
the throttle action could be reversed.

I always keep a cheap test motor handy,
to eliminate the loco motor and/or wiring as a source of any problem.

Andy


Rick Dow
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Hi All,

Fantastic advice.

A big thank you to everyone.

This is all information I did not know.

I have some experimentation to do

I'll get to it and give you my report afterward.

Plus fingers crossed.

Thanks once again!

Rick

Claus60
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Hi.

If you are fiddling more often with DelTang RX it is a very good idea to buy a Prog4.
With this the change of settings in DT RX is very easy compared to other options
(paperclip, programming with TX).

A Prog4 is not that expensive (around 20€ or 25$).
And with a Prog4 you can use a Software to set all options from a simple GUI.

See:

http://freerails.com/view_topic.php?id=8502&forum_id=45


As a hint to your current issues, I would reset the RX to factory settings.

If it really is a RX 61-2, then Selecta is disabled.
The variant with Selecta enabled would be RX 61-22.

You can easily change the variants with a single programming step, if needed.

By the way, a "grounded" motor is no issue,
as long as you don't have your rails connected,
and the lights (LED or so) are not connected to the "ground" or to the RX.

But it surely is better if the motor is isolated on both poles.
So do this, if possible.

But if the "original" loco already was prepared for DCC,
then the motor is not grounded for sure.
DCC don't like a grounded motor at all.


Rod Hutchinson
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Claus60, 

Presently I program my Deltang R/X using a stick transmitter.

I have had trouble locating a suitable genuine chipset cable,
to run between CoolTerm and Prog4 running on a Win10 O/S. 

I have searching for genuine Prolific cables,
but the ones I have been able to obtain do not have genuine chipsets.

Can you recommend a source and type of RS232 cable,
that would work on a Windows 10 O/S, linking Coolterm and Prog4?


davecttr
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Have a look here Rod.
 

It fixed my problem,

and I keep the installer in case a Windows 10 update breaks it again.


http://www.ifamilysoftware.com/news37.html


Rod Hutchinson
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This is the table showing O/S compatibility.

I can't locate genuine prolific cables.





davecttr
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My cable is not a prolific version and I bought it on Amazon,
so it is probably a Chinese clone.

The installer on the site I mentioned, has fixed the problem,
by installing the Prolific driver version 3.8.1.3, which works with clone cables,
and stops Windows 10 from loading the later Prolific driver on startup.

I don't know what the chip version is,
because the USB serial port emulator is a sealed unit.


Claus60
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Hello.

You can always use cheap PL2303 cables,
as the only thing that is not working are the later drivers.

There all PL 2303 chips are blocked, because the original supplier of those chips has discontinued them,
and all Pl2303 chips available today are copies, most likely "not licensed" copies.

I personally have one cable with a Pl 2303 chipset (1€ incl p&p),
and one with a FTDI 232 chip (7€ incl p&p).

The much more expensive FTDI232 works "out of the box",
and the cheap "China- cable" needs to install extra drivers.

But after installing those drivers I prefer the PL2303 cable as it is more solid
(Chip is housed inside the USB- plug)
and is working flawlessly, ever since I had the "not blocked" drivers installed.

The FTDI also is working without issues, so it's a nice "backup" for me.


Here you can see both cables I have working:





On the left there is the FTDI chip.
It needs a micro-USB cable on the one side, and a set of DuPont plugs on the other side.

On the right there is the PL 2303 chip.
The chip is mounted inside the USB plug,
and on the other side of the cable there are the matching DuPont plugs connected to my Prog4.


I searched the web to see, if I can make the PL 2303 working.
I finally found this page:

PL2303 Windows 8.1 install

Where a detailed instruction can be found how to install proper drivers for your PL 2303.
The needed drivers are there to download too.


The description is for Windows 8.1,
but those drivers also are working with Windows 7 or Windows 10.

I have tested it on Windows 7 on my old laptop,
and on Windows 10 on my new desktop PC.


So your table above, only is valid with Windows own drivers,
not if you install matching drivers yourself.


Claus60
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Another thing I forget to mention...

Nearly about 100% of all "genuine" PL 2303 cables are equipped with a PL 2303 H chip.



Rod Hutchinson
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Claus60 wrote:
Another thing I forget to mention...

Nearly about 100% of all "genuine" PL 2303 cables are equipped with a PL 2303 H chip. 


Hi Claus,

I ordered what I believed was a PL2303TA chip. 
The test software confirmed but it too failed on Windows 10.

I have developed a technique for programming output PADs with a stick transmitter,
so I shall stay with that for now.


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Hi Rod,

Have you tried it with the "old" drivers?
Maybe your chip is a "fake" PL2303TA that also is blocked by the new drivers.
It also is possible that your cable simply is broken somehow.

Nevertheless you can look for a FTDI chip, as suggested on the DelTang website.
FTDI cables are more expensive than the PL 2303 ones, but they still are cheap enough.
FTDI always should work even on Windows 10.


Just a starting point for your search:

https://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=FTDI&_sacat=0


Once you have used a working Prog4 together with my software,
you never will use the stick transmitter again, I promise.
At least not for programming DelTang RX... ;)


Edit:

Have you plugged your cable into an USB-hub, or directly into an USB port on your computer?
I only got the Prog4 to work when the cable was plugged directly to the PC.
With an USB-hub it never did work.

And you better use an USB 2.0 port not USB 3.x

 

Rod Hutchinson
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Claus,

Done most of those things. 


Would you mind evaluating this device that was offered to me?

https://core-electronics.com.au/usb-to-ttl-converter-cp210.html


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Hi.

This is no FTDI and no PL2303xxx chip.  It's a Silicon Labs chip.
I don't know this one, but on DT website, a CH340 is recommended alongside the FTDI chip.

Generally the Silicon Labs chips are known for being not very tolerant regarding the frequency (baudrate).
If your PC is on one side of the tolerance range and the chip on the other,
then it is possible that the combination did not work as it should.

 
After a look at the online shop you've linked here I would try this cable:

https://core-electronics.com.au/usb-to-ttl-serial-uart-rs232-adaptor-pl2303hx.html


As it is one of the "blocked" chips you need to install the "old" drivers
(from the link I've posted above) to get it work.
But this should not be a big issue.

This cable looks very close (if not identical) to the cable I'm using with success here.
It has matching plugs on the "other" side and the electronics hidden inside the USB plug.
No further fiddling necessary.

If you don't want to "risk" anything then you best find yourself a "real" FTDI cable,
also they are looking very expensive in this shop.


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Hi Claus,

The whole experience has been frustrating.

Thank you for taking the time and trouble to review the cable.

I may try an FTDI cable as you suggest.


davecttr
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I thought I would try a FTDI cable so I bought this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Adafruit-Serial-TTL-232-Cable-ADA70/dp/B00SK8LK1W/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_1?keywords=adafruit+usb+serial+converter&qid=1572610821&s=computers&sr=8-1-fkmr2


Plugged it in, and WIN10 prompted to download drivers, which it did.

I now have a functioning USB serial converter, but no USB serial port.

Device manager reports there are no compatible drivers.


Claus60
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Hi.

You will find the COM port in "Connections (COM & LPT)" or the like.
My Windows is in German so the English terms may be slightly different.
"Anschlüsse" translated to English means "Connections".





Above is how my device manager is looking:
COM7 is the "fake" PL 2303 cable (after installing the unblocked old drivers) connected to my Prog4,
and COM4 is the controller board of my CNC Mill / Laser Cutter.
So I set DT-Programmer to use COM7, and all is working perfect.

By the way, "Kirk" is the network name of my computer.
All systems in my home network are named after StarTrek characters.

If your cable did not show of here,
then the drivers are not correct, or not properly installed, or the cable is broken.
Or you have not plugged in the cable into a USB port directly on your PC.
USB hubs are not good for any type of USB-Serial converter, no matter which one.

I first would try a different USB port
(best an USB 2.0 one as USB 3.xxx may be not stable enough for an emulated COM port).
If this didn't fix the issue,
go ahead download and install new drivers from FTDI site as mentioned on the Amazon page.
If all this still did not work, most likely the cable is broken, and you should send it back.


Edit:

Another thing, for me the fix from the site you posted a link did not work with my PL 2303 cable.
I found and tried it without success, at least for me.
Only the manual installation and selection of the old drivers does work for me,
as described on the site I've linked to.


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I tried downloading the drivers and ended up with WIN10 losing my logon PIN.

Then my tablet hung on booting, so it has taken over 3 hours to recover the computer.

I won't be loading any more drivers anytime soon!



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Claus60 wrote: Hi.

You will find the COM port in "Connections (COM & LPT)" or the like.
My Windows is in German so the English terms may be slightly different.
"Anschlüsse" translated to English means "Connections".






You may find the device manager as above has the cable identified with a COM port,
but has a little yellow warning sign against it.

This indicates the driver installation is faulty. 
There is a fix on the FTDI website, I think this is the correct link:

https://www.ftdichip.com/Support/Documents/InstallGuides/AN_396%20FTDI%20Drivers%20Installation%20Guide%20for%20Windows%2010.pdf

See section 3.3. 

The equivalent of the above device driver window,
is on page 9 if there is no fault, page 11 with the fault identified.

I had a similar problem with a USB chip driver,
and fixed it OK using a similar procedure.

Frank


davecttr
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My problem might have been caused by not realising that FTDI chips don't work with USB 3 ports,

and my computer has only those.



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Hi.

It would be difficult to find a cable that is working with USB 3.x at all, I fear.

USB 3.0 is good for high speed data transfer but the low speed things
(like virtual COM ports or 2.4 GHz wireless mouse/keyboards and similar)
are often no longer working with USB 3.
So any useful PC should still have some USB 2.0 ports on board imho.

If you don't get your cable working on USB 3 it could be worth to try an USB 2.0 hub,
also hubs in general are difficult for virtual com ports too.
Plug an USB 2.0 hub into an USB 3.0 Port and connect the cable to it.
If you don't have one, borrow one from friends/neighbors for a short test.
What can you loose (excerpt for a few minutes of time)?
If it is working with an USB 2.0 hub they are very cheap (starting around 1€)


I think if I were you I would look for an cheap and old laptop (with Windows 7)
that I would place inside my model railroad room.
Such laptops you most often can buy for around 50€ (or GBP). 

Normally the battery is not good on those but you still can use them with AC power.
This laptop is not only for programming DT receivers,
but for many things around model railroading.
From reading forum posts and programming decoders and receivers,
up to controlling some CNC tools or even the whole layout,
such a laptop can be very useful in many areas. 


Edit:
I've added a link in this post but it is too long for the forum software.
In preview all is looking fine but once you send the reply the link gets meshed up completely.
So I needed to remove the link.
But you will find a lot of used laptops on ebay.co.uk or similar sites.


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Thanks for the advice Claus,

I do have an old laptop in a cupboard somewhere and I will check that out.



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" I've added a link in this post but it is too long for the forum software.
In preview all is looking fine but once you send the reply the link gets meshed up completely "



Huge ridiculously long links are displayed and titled as the poster wishes using the forum software

Members should always use the forum software link button as it makes links presentable


There is a simple function button in the Main Reply Window to deal with links and label them

It is the World Globe With Chain Link in front of it top row third from right


Using it allows your link to be pasted into the first popup box

After clicking on OK the second popup box allows you to appropriately name your link as you wish

After that clicking OK again takes you back to the Main Reply Window

The link now suitably named by you will have appeared where your cursor was when you clicked on the link icon


:f:


Eddie


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Hi.

I used this button (World Globe With Chain Link) and in preview all looks fine.
But after sending the post the link was meshed up and no longer clickable.
 

Here is another try with the same link:

:td: [url=https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_dcat=177&_fsrp=1&RAM%2520Size=2%2520GB|3%2520GB|4%2520GB&_udhi=50&_sacat=0&_nkw=Laptop&_from=R40&rt=nc&Operating%2520System=Windows%25207&LH_ItemCondition=2500|3000]used laptop[/url] :td:


So if it now is working, I'll apologies.



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



Hi Claus

The above link has been wrongly entered and is not valid in some way or other

Perhaps the brackets enclosing it and certainly url text should not be part of a valid link

Used Laptops  :dt:

Above a different and valid link has been entered using the World Globe With Chain Link button

:f:

Eddie


Last edited on Sat Nov 2nd, 2019 02:45 pm by

Rick Dow
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So it turns out that I used a DelTang 61-2 receiver in the latest no-go locomotive conversion failure,
and I believe that I should have used a 62-2, if I wanted to utilize the magnetic pencil off-on switch.
Am I correct in that assumption ?

Secondly,
still no explanation for the fact that although I believe that I managed to bind successfully,
I had no success with regard to power.

But I aim to switch receivers and install the 62-2 receiver to see what happens.

Rick


davecttr
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Ah!

I should have realized because I have some Rx-62',
no longer use the reed switch.

Rx-62's have 5 pad connections across the short edge:
2 for the motor,
one negative,
and 2 for the positive, one positive for normal battery connection and one for the reed switch.

Try your Rx-61 without the reed switch and see if it works,
a multimeter across the motor terminals maybe.


Rick Dow
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I have to admit to not fully understanding what you've asked me to do, Dave. 
(I'm so bad at electronics)

My successful locomotives are running Rx-62 receivers which I can turn on and off,
by placing a magnet near the little square component in one corner of the receiver.

When I place the same magnet near the same square component in the Rx-61,
it does not turn the receiver on or off.

So what I'm used to doing is turning on the red power button on the transmitter first
(it becomes illuminated)
then I remove the top from the locomotive tender to expose the battery and receiver,
then I hold the magnet near the receiver's on/off switch for a few seconds,
and when the LED lights up with a solid light - I know I'm in business.     

Works very well with the Rx-62.   

Make sense?

But, I used a Rx-61 on the last locomotive.    


davecttr
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Now I am really confused.

My Rx-62's have a reed switch built in,
a long glass tube on the underside,
no square component.

Rx-61's don't have a reed switch,
according to the Deltang site.


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Hi Dave, 

I simply think Rick doesn't realise what component on the Rx62 activates the E-switch.


Rick,

It is surely not one of the square chips on the board.
An Rx62 - and only an Rx62- has 2 "R" pads,
and the Rx62 is switched on by shortly connecting these 2 R-pads. 

Basically, it does not matter at all what you use for connecting them. 

It can be done with a Reed-switch soldered to these R pads.
2 very thin metal tongues in a Glass tube with a very short distance,
that come together and close the contact when you hold a magnet near enough.
An Rx62 without a Reed-switch will do nothing when you bring a magnet near to it.

Instead of a Reed-switch you can also solder a push button to the R-pads,
to close the contact and switch the Rx62 on.
As can be seen in my Cat-Switch post.

And you do not have to solder the Reed-switch or the push button directly to the Rx62.
You can place them anywhere in the loco, where you have good access to it.
Just leading 2 wires to the R-pads.

And a magnetic field also works through the plastic of a loco body,
if the Reed-switch is near enough. 


Juergen


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Here is the description from the Micron site. 
I use the built-in e-switch all the time on these receivers, and it works well.     

Rx62 is a 5 channel (1 x ESC, 4 x P) DSM2/DSMX compatible micro receiver,
with a built-in reed e-switch. .A suitable magnet is available separately.

The reed switch, or other external switch,
connected across the switch pads on the receiver board,
can be used to switch the receiver on and off.


A brief activation, e.g. by swiping a magnet across the reed switch,
will turn the receiver on.

Switching off can be achieved using the reed switch or the transmitter bind button:
  • Activate switch for >2 seconds, receiver switches off 2 seconds after magnet is removed.
  • Or hold down the transmitter bind button (ch 5) for >5 seconds.
Hope this helps.

Thanks, 

Rick


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Rick, look on the bottom of your Rx-62, you will see the glass tube.

The Micron site description is the same as the Deltang site one.

If there is no reed switch there, the e-switch would not work.


fallen
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Rick,

This photo of the Rx62 is in the Micron website:

http://www.micronradiocontrol.co.uk/images/gen/dt/dt_rx62-2-n_500.jpg

The reed switch is the glass tube along the bottom of the board.

Frank


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Frank and Dave.   I SEE IT.  

I just didn't look there, just didn't see it or know what it was, Thanks. 
I see the reed switch now!   Thank you.  (I told you I was bad at this)

Does this mean I should be taping the reed switch side up from now on,
instead of that little square box in the corner on the opposite side? 

:) :) :) :) :)  Gad, this just adds to my legendary foul-ups.

Back to the issue of why my last couple locomotive didn't run. 
Still a mystery (although I admit it could also be a foul-up)
because I was still able to bind the Tx21 and the Rx61. 

Opened up the throttle but no reaction,
so there is a problem somewhere.

When I turned the Transmitter off,
the Rx61 Receiver turned off too. 
Does that make sense?

Getting ready to re-attempt to power the Mantua locomotive,
but this time with the Rx62 instead of the Rx61.  
Fingers crossed.

Thanks again.

Rick


Toeffelholm
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Rick,

You don't have to "tap" anything.  Magnetism works touchless.
You expose the reed switch to a magnetic field in order to close the contact.

How near you have to bring this magnetic field to the reed,
simply depends on the strength of the magnetic field,
and thus on the size and type of the magnet.

And this also works if there is a non magnetic material,
between the magnet and the reed.

E.g. with the smallest neodym magnet I have here, 3mm dia and 4mm length,
I can make the contact close in a distance of about 5mm.
Also with a 3mm plastic sheet in between.


With your Rx61 / Tx21 problem,
you should first check the things that has been told to you before.

- Check if the the Selecta feature is disabled.
Unless, the Rx can't be controlled with your Tx21.

- Check if the center off / low off settings of the Rx61 meets your way of throttle control.

Juergen


Last edited on Sat Nov 16th, 2019 05:15 pm by Toeffelholm

Rick Dow
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Juergen

I apologize for a lack of detail in my recent post.


I did not mean that I would be physically "tapping" on the reed switch.
But rather I was referring to the fact that when I convert to battery power,
I generally use sticky, double-sided TAPE to secure the Receiver against the roof of the tender. 

Then I bring the magnet near to the spot on the outside of the roof near the receiver and switch it on.


All to say that I will still need to stick the receiver with the same side facing "UP",
in order to look through the hole I have drilled in the roof of the tender,
and discover if the "Power LED" is "On" and "OFF." 
   
Hope I'm writing this in an understandable manner.


The DelTang receivers I use were ordered without Selecta,
because I didn't want that option included. 


At the end of your post you mentioned. 
"Check if the center off / low off settings of the Rx61 meets your way of throttle control."


I have no idea what you are referring to.
When you get a free moment, can you explain further in greater detail?


Thank You

Rick


fallen
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Hi Rick,

You asked about the "centre off" etc. Options.

The Deltang receivers can be programmed to respond in one of two ways.

"Centre off" means the speed and direction are both controlled by the big knob on the transmitter.
It has a centre position where it clicks a little bit and this is the off position,
turning it one way moves the loco one way, turning it the other way moves it the other way
(so no surprises there!)

"Low off" uses the knob to control the speed,
the full turn takes it from zero to full speed, and the switch controls the direction.
So you have better control of the speed with this option,
but lose the possibility of using the switch to control lights or other things on the loco.

Generally, receivers supplied with the Selecta option have centre off,
but you can ask for the low off option.
Non-Selecta receivers could be either.

It is fairly easy to change the receivers from one option to the other,
so I guess Juergen's point was that if this was not set as you usually had it or has been changed,
then the loco would respond "oddly" ie different from what you expected.
This would add to the confusion.

Another possibility that occurs to me,
is that there is an option where the receiver will not normally start to control the loco when switched on,
until the speed has been set to zero.

This is to prevent the loco setting off at speed when first switched on.
If this is enabled and the centre off/low off option is not what you think,
the loco would not start when you first turned the knob a little,
it might only start after say a full turn which would run through all the possible off positions.
Just a possible cause of the loco not starting.

Hope this helps

Frank


Toeffelholm
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Rick, 

If you have the motor control "low off",
the motor voltage is zero when the throttle potentiometer is turned completely left,
and it is max when it is turned completely right.
With changing direction with a separate toggle switch.

If the motor control is "center off", 
the motor voltage is zero when the throttle potentiometer is in the middle position,
and max in the end positions, completely left and completely right,
for forwards and backwards direction.

That you know I think, at least the method you are using.


The thing is, that the Rx's are programmed to wait for a throttle zero before they do anything.
That is to prevent, that a switched on loco shoots away when the throttle is accidentally on a high velocity position.

So in case the Rx is programmed to obey to "center off" and you are used to control your locos "low off",
your throttle is completely left but the Rx interprets this position as max. forwards or backwards,
and the loco doesn't move until you turned the throttle to middle position.

The same vice versa.
If the Rx is programmed to "low off" and you start with "center off",
the Rx interprets this as half opened throttle and waits until you turn the throttle completely left.


With this Selecta thing,
the fact that you ordered without Selecta may not necessarily mean that you got one.
You know, humans make mistakes, sometimes, not you and me for sure, but others.
So worth checking I think.

Juergen


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Juergen,

Excellent explanation.  Thank you very much.  


In my case, I have always ordered my Transmitters to be a "Low Off" model.  

So I am going to presume that the DelTang Receiver are sent from the factory,
already programmed to be either "Low Off" or "Centre OFF."

So if I go back to my two failed conversions,
and try running them again with my "Low Off" Transmitter....
the subsequent test I would perform,
is to move the Transmitter throttle dial to the halfway point and stop.
Then twist it a little further to see it the locomotive responds? 


Just re-read your post, Frank.
Thank you very much. 

I am not sure that I entirely understand your last paragraph. 
Could you explain that once again, please?
See below. 

Thanks,  Rick


" If this is enabled and the centre off/low off option is not what you think,
the loco would not start when you first turned the knob a little,
it might only start after say a full turn which would run through all the possible off positions.
Just a possible cause of the loco not starting.
"


fallen
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Hi Rick,

I think you have got the point actually, from your post, but just in case ...

First, the radio control system works by the transmitters sending the position of the controls to the receivers.
The receivers decide how to respond, and practically all the programming of options is in the receivers.
So the low off or centre off option is set in the receiver, and should be the same whatever transmitter you use it with.

Second, the receivers do not drive the loco until they have been "armed",
as the instructions call it, by the transmitter speed control being set to zero.
This is to stop the loco setting off at speed when first turned on.
However, the zero setting is actually determined by the programming in the receiver as described above,
not by the transmitter.

So, to "arm" a low off receiver, you have to set the speed knob to the extreme counter anticlockwise setting,
whereas to "arm" a centre zero receiver, you have to set the speed knob to the centre position.

If the setting in the receiver is not what you think it will not start to control the loco when turned on as you expect it to.
A centre off setting would need you to turn the knob to the centre position to start to control the loco.
Whereas if you thought it was a low off setting,
you would expect it to start once the knob is set to the extreme anti clockwise position.

Just as you say in your last post,
if it does not start from the extreme anti clockwise position,
set it to the mid point and see if it starts from there.

Hope this helps

Frank


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Frank,

Very well explained and thank you very much.
I understand that particular facet of the transmitter/receiver relationship,
a lot better than I did before we exchanged these posts.

I do have another question.
I believe I have wired the battery/receiver/motor correctly
(exactly the same as my other successful locomotives).
 
And here is a description of this evening's actions and the results:

1.  I push down the red button on the transmitter, it clicks and stays down and glows red.

2.  I pass the magnet near the reed switch and the receiver's power light comes on and remains solidly on (not flashing)

3.   I have my "Low Off" throttle tuned back to zero.

4.   Momentum is set at zero.

5.   I open the throttle and nothing happens (yet again).

6.   I turn the throttle all the way through the range from zero to full speed a couple of times... nothing.

7.    Then I set the throttle to half open (like it was a Centre Off) then I opened it up, but no response.

8.    Next, I turned the throttle off by pressing the red button again. It pops back up and the red light goes off. 
       At that point the solid power light in the receiver goes off as well, but then after a second or two, it begins blinking.  

9.   I place the magnet near the reed switch and the light goes off.
     
(these actions are identical to my other locomotives with exception that they all function properly)


Question:  
Does it matter to the motor in the locomotive if the red and black power wires are reversed?
I didn't think it did, except that the engine will run in reverse if the wires are reversed.


I will scrap this receiver tomorrow (don't worry, it won't go into the waste can) 
and try another one as an experiment in case the receiver is faulty.

Your thoughts?

Thanks

Rick


fallen
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Hi Rick,

Thanks for setting out very clearly what is happening with the receiver.

It all sounds as expected except the loco does not move!

The behaviour of the LED is as expected.

The receiver should have been "armed",
by your moving the throttle through the full range,
so it should have moved.

It sounds very much like the receiver is at fault.

On the wires, there should be four wires connected to the receiver.
Usually these are red, black, and two the same colour,
although what colour it is may vary.
I have seen orange, brown, yellow, it does not matter what colour they are.

The red and black are the power in to the receiver.
They should be connected red to battery positive, black to battery negative,
and it does matter which way round these are,
as the receiver will not work and will probably be damaged if they are reversed.

The two the same colour are the wires to the motor,
and if these are reversed the motor will run in the reverse direction,
but otherwise it should work OK.

Frank


davecttr
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The red power wire connects to the + positive connector,
and the black power wire to the - connector.

If you bought your Rx wired they should be correct.
If they are wired the wrong way round, the Rx is probably broken.

The motor wires should be both the same colour.

The sequence you list should work for a correctly wired Rx-62,
and is it a Rx62 you are testing?

If it is a Rx61 or Rx60 it does not have e-switch capability,
and should not have an attached reed switch.


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From my own experience I can say,
that I once accidentally connected a Li-Po battery the wrong way round to the Rx,
and the result was a short circuit and some nice little flames on the isolation of the wires. 

I could disconnect the battery quickly, so nothing seriously affected.
The Rx itself was rather unimpressed by this, and worked as before, also the battery.

Juergen


Rick Dow
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Alas, when I fatefully crossed the wires on a battery/ receiver combination,
I created an almost instant, very swollen Li-Po,
that managed to both ignite itself, and also blow the receiver.

Both were obviously toast and ended up on my lawn,
in the frying pan I keep handy in the train room. 
I guarantee this needs to happen only one time to a model railroader,
and he will definitely learn his lesson.

That Li-Po reminded me of the song about the guy,
who was trying to put out a fire using gasoline.


Today I tried a new Rx62 in my Mantua 2-6-6-2 logging locomotive,
but still to no avail.


Next I removed the body from an old DC locomotive,
and then plugged in an even older DC transformer to an electrical outlet. 
When I hooked up the two lead wires,
from the transformer to the motor of the DC locomotive..... off it went.

Next, I hooked up the same two leads from the transformer,
to the two terminals on the Mantua
(it's what they call a flat coreless motor I believe??)   

Regardless, unless there is some kind of difference in a flat motor and a round one....
there was no response. 
So I think I may have a dud motor.


This means that I have purchased three Mantua 2-6-6-2 locomotives,
from individual sellers on Ebay,
One was old and DC.
A second one was DCC.
And the third unit was a relatively new unit with DCC, sound,
and a unique coupling connection with the tender.    

So far, two of the three have motors that don't appear to operate.


So I'm thinking that both my receivers are fine,
and my conversions were probably fine.
I believe the motors are both bad.  

Any other thoughts?  ???  

Those flat coreless motors are exactly the same as any other motor,
when it comes to receiving DC power.... correct?


Thanks

Rick


Toeffelholm
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Really ?
You didn't check before if the motor is running at all ?

I assume that you at least stripped off all the DCC stuff from the locos,
and that you connected the transformer to nothing else than the bare motor connections ?

Juergen


fallen
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An obvious question,

but do you have a working motor, to connect to one of the receivers to test it?


Frank


W C Greene
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Howdy Rick,

From your post I read that you are thinking that the Mantua "can motors" are "coreless"...they are not.
The can and flat can motors are fine as they are, but the technology is about 15-20 years old.
You need to check if the motors actually operate.

The problem with evilbay and other internet sellers, is that the seller is pushing old stuff, broken stuff,
or just doesn't know what the hell they are selling.

If you want quality motors, toss the old open frame motor,
and be sure the can types are in working order.

I have experience with the Mantua locos and the 2-6-6-2 in particular.
They are very simple to work on but beware that the motors, open frame and cans,
have one brush that is grounded to the back frame,
and if you don't get rid of that problem, you will continue to have troubles.

These are just my observations,
I spent years repairing model trains as a job and do actually know a little something.

Good luck and keep at it.

Woodie


Rick Dow
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Hi

Jeurgen said:
  
" Really?    You didn't check before if the motor is running at all? '



Short Answer:         

Jeurgen!  
You forget who you are dealing with here. 
Of course I didn't check to see if the motor was running.


Feeble Excuse: 
 
They were in their original boxes and all nicely packed away.
I assumed they were wonderful.


Jeurgen said: 

" I assume you removed all the DCC stuff from the locomotives."


Yes, and it gives me great pleasure removing all that stuff.


Frank Asked: 

" Do you have a working motor to connect to the receivers to test them?
"

Yes, and I will do so this evening.


Woodie said:  
 
" There is a possibility that one brush might be grounded to the back frame."


Ok, I was wondering about something like that.
Woodie, can you describe how I would investigate to discover if it's grounded,
and if so, how I would solve that problem? 


Thanks everyone

Rick


bobquincy
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$3.49 will buy a Pololu 2810 electronic-switch, with reverse voltage protection. 

I use them in most of my models,
after toasting a receiver from a one second lapse of polarity attention. 

A diode costs less, but the electronic-switch has almost no voltage drop.

boB


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If the receiver is toast, it is probably only the output devices
(they may be bubbled from the heat) but the rest of the receiver is still ok. 

So how do we use it without outputs? 
It can still power LEDs and such, *and* the PWM signals may still work. 

By routing them to a motor control board (like Pololu 2135)
you may be able to salvage the receiver.

boB


W C Greene
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Rick, the old open frame Mantua motor IS GROUNDED to the frame,
and should be tossed anyway since it pulls too much power.

On those old motors, the grounded brush can be figured out,
by using a simple volt/ohm meter,
and checking for continuity between the motor's frame and each brush.

The "can" motors have isolated brushes so there SHOULD be no ground path.
If one is found in one of those, throw the thing out.

If I were looking for a good quality motor these days,
I would probably buy a Mashima or Cannon or something comparable.

It's a shame that Sagami motors are not available (maybe somebody has some),
they were the desired motor 20 years ago.

You might look on the net for Micro Loco Motion,
this fellow has nice coreless motors with or without gearheads.

Good luck...

Woodie


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Sadly, Mr. Micro Locomotion (Eldon Shirey) passed away. 
No one has yet continued his legacy.
 
So we don't have a good place to go for high quality motors, at a decent price,
and for someone who can make knowledgeable recommendations of what motor to use.  

:(

boB


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Hang out here a while:

Repower group

And you can get some good info on newer replacement motors.



Rick Dow
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Thanks Everyone for all the very helpful advice.


Up to this point, I have never replaced a motor in any HO locomotive,
but I would certainly like to be able to do so. 

I'm sure there are any number of model railroaders who do this kind of work regularly,
and that's what I believe I would need to do, to get these Mantua 2-6-6-2's running.  

I rewired two currently operating locomotives with my suspect receiver/transmitter pairs,
and they worked just fine.  That was good news. 

Very pleased to see that the problem I was having,
wasn't a function of either receiver or transmitter being flawed.


Thank you for suggesting the Repower Group, Hal.  Much appreciated.
I have signed up and will hopefully begin learning a few things.


As usual, Woodie - thanks for the great information and advice.


Rick


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Glad you are finally getting things sort out.

Frank

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Hi Rick,

You said
“For what its worth, this installation was on an Alco diesel by Atlas”

If that is an Atlas, that was actually made by Kato, 
motors are available on eBay that are almost a direct replacement for $3.

Very minor wiring modifications needed,
physically mounts right in.


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Problem (probably me!) with Deltang Rx61-22 and Tx22.

I have a problem in that the Rx61 seems permanently bound to the Tx!

I've followed the paperclip info on the Deltang site,
from cycling through the no-select/select/select with Tx-change cycle to no effect, using P1 and P3.
Then a 'hard reset' using P1 and P2.
No difference.

It all started when I tried to rebind to a different channel.
All it did was add that channel.
Then again and again, until I have only channel 5 not controlling the Rx.

The reason for changing was that I wanted to swop this Rx61 for an Rx63,
to see if I could have a buzzer.

This was suggested to me in response to an earlier post, 
but I found the speed take up too quick to overcome the inertia of the Mashima 1020 motor,
powered via a boost board.

So I wonder if the Rx is faulty ?
But I feel it might really be me.

Any ideas appreciated - thanks.


Peter Smith


fallen
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Hi Peter,

The Rx6 receivers have the ability to be transferred from one Tx to another,
by the Tx Selecta switch.

To do this, the Rx is bound successively to each Tx using different Selecta position on each Tx.
It sounds like you have successfully bound the Rx to each Selecta position of the same Tx.
Not what you wanted but possibly not a faulty Rx, just the system working as designed.

I have not tried this myself,
but I think the hard reset will reset programming changes to factory settings,
but possibly not the binding information the Rx stores.

If you have or can get access to a second Tx22,
then switching the Tx change option off by the paperclip change,
and then binding to the second Tx might do the trick.

Failing that,
if you bound the Rx to the other Tx in other Selecta positions,
then I think that these would be freed up on you original Tx, if that makes sense.

Frank


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Thanks Frank.

I'll give the 'hard reset' paperclip thing another go.

Sadly I only have access to a Tx20 which I got when I started out,
and copied your scheme for a Narrow Planet 009 Baguley-Drewry, over on another forum.

Since then I've acquired the Tx22 and moved up into 16mm battery locos,
with Rx63-22's as my preferred receiver.

I saw a reply from you to my 'wrong-place' post but can't see it now.
So thanks for that, saying that I can use the P1 pad on an Rx63,
with the bind button as a switch (hope I've got that right).

The buzzers I've got are <25mA so maybe they're a tad high?

Your advice and guidance is always appreciated.

Peter Smith

Edit: Actually it's not a Tx20 but a Tx21.

Last edited on Thu Dec 19th, 2019 03:53 pm by Peter Smith

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My experience is for normal use with Selecta and a Tx-22,
do NOT use the Selecta with Tx change option.

With Selecta option, just rebind your Rx to the Tx-22,
remembering to set the Selecta knob to the number you want.


I don't know if this is exactly how the Rx works,
but imagine it has 12 internal memory slots.

As new,it has the number 6 slot,
filled with the identifying unique 'name' of the Deltang 'test' Tx-22,
all other slots will be empty.

You can rebind to any Selecta number,
and it simply overwrites what is already there.

hHwever you cannot erase the contents of a memory slot,
that can only be done by a software reload.


The solution should be simple,
when the Selecta option is 2, Selecta WITHOUT Tx change,
the Rx simply uses the last Selecta number bound to,
and ignores the rest.


Phew, it is actually simple, but difficult to explain.


Andy R
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Joined: Thu Apr 4th, 2019
Location: Malton, United Kingdom
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Hi Peter

The paper-clip reset doesn't clear bind data,
only receiver programming.

If you made any changes to an output function,
hard-reset will return the behaviour to the as-shipped configuration.

As you are using a Tx20,
you need to have Selecta disabled.

One of the Tx20 function buttons
( which one depends on whose Tx20 you are using,
look at the information sheet that came with the Tx2 )
operates R/C channel 2, which is the same as used by Tx22 etc, for Selecta.

So, if you enable Selecta on the receiver,
you will find it getting deselected when you push the Tx20 button.

-- Andy


Toeffelholm
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Hi Peter,

I hope I got your problem right.


So you tried to rebind your Rx to the same Tx22, but only to another selecta-switch position?
And you did that several times with several switch positions and now the Rx obeys to all these switch positions?

The most senseful explanation for this behaviour is, that your Rx regards each of your switch positions as an own Tx,
so that it is to assume that your Rx is set to "Selecta + TxChange", but should be set to "Selecta" only.


I know, you wrote that you already tried to change the Selecta setting,
but perhaps you try once more.

And be aware that if you set it to "Selecta disabled",
your Rx will react independent from the Selecta-switch position and will work on all 12 positions.


Juergen


Peter Smith
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Joined: Tue Jul 18th, 2017
Location: England
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Thanks Juergen.

I appreciate all the guidance and advice given to me on here.

Clearly I'm getting ahead of myself so hopefully a rethink over Christmas will be useful.

It's definitely me and not the Deltang stuff!

Peter



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