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pipopak
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Just in case somebody wants to see what is under the San Francisco cable system turntables:
http://33.media.tumblr.com/f0d31e2eb6f9f7f7d3d75230d54ff42a/tumblr_n8azeqdKQx1s7e5k5o1_1280.jpg
Jose.


Attachment: tumblr_n8azeqdKQx1s7e5k5o1_1280.jpg (Downloaded 12 times)

mabloodhound
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What I want to know is how they turn that 180º with a cable running right down the middle of it?
We even watched it in operation from the sidewalk and never figured it out.

W C Greene
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I assume that the TT's are "unpowered", requiring riders to help push the car off and onto "powered" track. There may be a slight grade which could help. I do know that when I last was in SF, I visited the car barn. It's TT was "unpowered" but the crews used a tiny Fairmont or maybe Fordson rail tractor to pull the cars out on the table and then give them a slight push off. The cars ran down a grade into the street and then caught the cable. A most interesting operation indeed.

Woodie

pipopak
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I found this pdf with mechanical drawings of the turntables :
http://heavymovablestructures.org/assets/technical_papers/00930.pdf
There says that the cables do not go thru the turntable. BUT in the pic I posted before they seem to do so. Anybody else confused?. Jose.

Last edited on Mon Jul 14th, 2014 01:42 am by pipopak

oztrainz
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mabloodhound wrote:
What I want to know is how they turn that 180º with a cable running right down the middle of it?
We even watched it in operation from the sidewalk and never figured it out.


Hi Dave and all,
The answer is because the rope doesn't go under the turntable - it gets turned around and fed back under the other track before it gets to the turntable.

What I think you are looking at in the photo is some type of a support under the table that holds up some of the gripper gear while the tram is being turned rather than the haulage rope.

I got a series of photos of Tram 19 being turned at Market Street last year when I was over there that I think might explain things

First up Tram 19 parked in front of a string of trams at the Market Street terminus. See the yellow line in front of the tram and the words "LET GO" in white behind the yellow line. This is where the tram drops the rope. The other trams parked behind 19 have the haulage rope passing through them but it is not being gripped and the parking brakes are set on these cars.


Photo 2 - Tram 19 has dropped the rope and rolled away under gravity/momentum from just before dropping the rope towards the turntable at Market Street. Some Dumb 'destrians are crossing in front of #21, the next tram to move up to the LET GO marker


Photo 3 - Tram 19 being mandhandled onto the turntable before turning


Photo 4 - Tram 19 being turned. Put you back into it!!!


Photo 5 - Tram 19, turned and being pushed off the turntable

It is still clear of the rope here and being pushed by the crew behind it.

Photo 6 - Tram 19, clear of the table and still being pushed towards the rope pick-up point - see the yelloow line of the tracks?


Photo 7 - Tram i9 parked at the rope pick-up point the "clipie" is about to lift the cable
The gripman is setting up the grip gear to catch the cable.

Phot 8 - Up she comes...


Photo 9 - Tram 19 then is hauled forward by the rope to the loading, is loaded with passengers and is about to set off on another trip to Powell Street

In this photo the LET GO stripe on the arrival track can be seen at the left and the rope lifter has been dropped back into it below-street slot behind the tram.

Later in the day I found the Winding House Museum. In there was this explanatory diagram of the grip - note the amount of it in grey (under the pavement). This is attached to the tram and goes into the slot on the turntable deck


Any more questions? I do have some other photos of the grip gear on display at the Winding House.

Last edited on Mon Jul 14th, 2014 02:35 am by oztrainz

W C Greene
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Well, there you go...fine explanation.

Woodie

mabloodhound
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pipopak wrote:  BUT in the pic I posted before they seem to do so. Anybody else confused?. Jose.

A good explanation but as Jose said, in his photo it sure was confusing with that cable running smack dab in the center.

I do remember them turning the car by hand.   And the visit to the cable operation center was good too.

pipopak
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The more I look to my original post the more complicated it gets. because:
1) there is a cross brace in the center between the rails to clear the cable.
2) the rails seem to be just temporary. I don't see a way to connect them to the turning mechanism under them (compare to my second posting).
3) there seems to be a pulley to direct the cable down at the far end of the turntable.
So, is it possible that the turntable itself has been removed for repairs and this is a temporary setup?. Jose.

oztrainz
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pipopak wrote:
The more I look to my original post the more complicated it gets. because:
1) there is a cross brace in the center between the rails to clear the cable.
2) the rails seem to be just temporary. I don't see a way to connect them to the turning mechanism under them (compare to my second posting).
3) there seems to be a pulley to direct the cable down at the far end of the turntable.
So, is it possible that the turntable itself has been removed for repairs and this is a temporary setup?. Jose.


Hi Pipopak & all,
Very likely - the rail across the pit appears to be a heavier section than the surrounding rails and it appears to be supported on the concrete rim. It also does not have a clear path to rotate. See the beam and its support at the left of the photo. This is starting to look more like a major rebuild/change rather than routine maintenance of the turntable.

It would be nice to to see another photo taken at 90 degrees to this one to see if the rails in this photo are actually being supported by the turntable rollers.

Any one got a guess where/when this photo was taken? Maybe somewhere near a car barn because of the density of the tracks? Did San Francisco have more than one car barn? The current car barn/winding house is on the side of a hill and the geography is a lot different to what is shown in this photo. Were any lines decommissioned/cut back in the 1930/1940's? There is a a railway crossbuck further down the street. I can remember seeing electric tram tracks but no railway tracks when I was there.

You are right Pipopak - just more questions and not many answers from me.

Last edited on Mon Jul 14th, 2014 09:52 pm by oztrainz

pipopak
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From the Library of Congress site:

http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/ca1237.photos.016248p/

Title: 15. TURNTABLE RECONSTRUCTION - BAY & TAYLOR: Photocopy of January 1941 photograph taken during reconstruction of the Bay and Taylor turntable. View to the south. The 'spider' that carries the actual turntable is in place in the pit. - San Francisco Cable Railway, Washington & Mason Streets, San Francisco, San Francisco County, CA

Jose.

oztrainz
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Hi Jose an all,
A quick search on the Library of Congress site turned up 4 more photos - 2 of them during the rebuild.
The caption for #14 gives the game away - TURNTABLE PIT: Photocopy of December 1940 photograph of the turntable pit at Bay and Taylor Streets. View is to the north. Market Street Railway was in the process of moving the turntable from its original location, where the car is being turned in the background, to its present site. - San Francisco Cable Railway, Washington & Mason Streets, San Francisco, San Francisco County, ...
4 x 5 in.
http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/hhh.ca1237.photos.016247p/
They are installing the new turntable further up the old return line. The right hand track leading to the new pit is a new arrival track. So yes that is the haulage rope between the rails across the new pit. The haulage rope could probably have still been in service when this photo was taken.

#16 TURNTABLE RECONSTRUCTION - BAY & TAYLOR: Photocopy of January 1941 photograph taken during reconstruction of the Bay and Taylor turntable. View to northwest taken two days after CA-12-22. Reconstruction work is nearly complete in this view. - San Francisco Cable Railway, Washington & Mason Streets, San Francisco
http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/hhh.ca1237.photos.016249p/ The haulage rope would have to have been rerouted when this photo was taken. The new "Let Go" point would be behind the photographer.


and finally, here it is in later days, the right-hand track that ran past the new turntable pit and old turntable has gone.
#19 the turntable
http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/hhh.ca1237.photos.016252p/

and #20 with a tram
http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/ca1237.photos.016253p/


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