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Tim H
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Hi,

The market for European* trains is somewhat odd, the British use only 1/43 and naturally favour their domestic railways whilst the other nations of Europe use 1/45 (to a lesser extent 1/43) for their domestic railways.

There are at least three German forums for modellers of 1/45 outline. but for those who do not feel comfortable outside of their language zone, there was nothing, until now......

There is a new open access forum specifically for those who model European outline, the 1to45 Forum

It is not affiliated to any society, no membership fees, no advertising and it is a really simple format.

So, if you like European outline*, step aboard because a warm welcome awaits you.

Tim and btw, thanks to Herb for his encouragement.:2t:

*Now the embarrassing bit, the British don't really see themselves as Europeans, so European outline is anything except British Railways.

 

 

Bob D
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Good luck Tim with your forum :apl:

I often wonder why we have all these different scales that are so close to one another. I'd like to see a group of engines or rolling stock side-by-side that represents all our different scales, just to see how much difference there is.

Bob D.

Wolfgang C
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Hi Tim,

it is interesting that somebody from outside Europe (the British Isles) is interested in our prototypes. Besides the German forums that you mentioned I came across some very good forums in French which made me regret that I was so lazy at school.

My main interest are prototypes from northern America but I wish you all the best with your new start and will follow
your forum.

Cheers,

Wolfgang

Tim H
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Hi Guys,

The forum really fills a niche market rather than general purpose, it provides somewhere for those who like German/Swiss/French outline in O gauge.

Btw I always wondered why Lenz produced in 1/45 rather than 1/43 and the explanation was rather simple. The correct gauge for 1/43 should be 32.99mm (the Scale Seven people use 33mm) whilst 32mm is almost spot-on for 1/45.

Pretty obvious when you think about it.

Tim

Robert Comerford
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O gauge as invented by the Germans was to 1:45.
It is not hard to see how such anomalies as 7mm came about. To cater for their main market at the time, the cashed up British middle and upper classes, an easy conversion was needed for a metricated work force and plans arriving in feet and inches. Hence the mm to the foot rule.
With metric measuring tools like hens teeth in the USA then 1/4" to the foot became a convenient measurement when they got into O gauge.
What surprised me was to discover recently that the French used 7mm as I had always taken all of continental Europe to use the original correct scale.
I can remember articles about some American modellers using 17/64" as the 1:45 conversion ratio to make their models more closely aligned to the track gauge. I can't think of a more awkward measurement to work with so I guess they made their own scale rules or perhaps converted everything to inches and divided by 45 on a slide rule.

regards
Bob Comerford

again,good luck.

Tom T
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Doesn't 17/64 work out to be 43.5 which is thought to be the basis of Half Oh (HO) (1/87)?

W C Greene
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I think that it was the late Bob (?) Hegge who built the Crooked Mountain Lines traction layout in 17/64 running on "O gauge" track. Mr. Hegge used to show up in the old RMC and MR with his line. Fantastic modeling. He used code 100 rail on this layout and it has influenced me toward small rail ever since.

43, 45, 48...whetever...it's all cool. I have been told that I should be modeling 33, 34, 35.956789 or whatever. Just have fun and run a train today...
Woodie

Robert Comerford
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Tom, HO is a British invention, even though they eventually went commercially with OO on HO gauge track.
Half O is 3.5mm/foot which is half O scale at 7mm/foot.

17/64 would be close to 1:45... the closest commercial scale correct for the gauge.

regards
Bob

Robert Comerford
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Hi Woodie, all my readings of Bob Hegge's magnificent Crooked Mountain Lines state it was 1/4" scale. He just used code 100 rail (as you state) with finer standard profile wheels on O Gauge track. One of my inspirations too!
regards
Bob

Helmut
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This whole business started when the BSME decided upon gauges in the late 1890's- there were # 0, 1, II, III, IV, VII, and X gauges.
0 was set to be 1 1/4"
Later on, when the concern about a scale/gauge ratio became important, the ratio for 0 gauge was 1:45, which seemed to be not  too popular amongst the imperial measurement's faction (although they set the standard in the beginning )
And Half-0 had made its appearance ( mind you, in 1935 they started with 1/8" to the foot in the US ), some voted for 7mm scale after H0 had been determined to be 3.5mm/foot, but the US boys, loving their inch fractions, preferred 1/4" instead of 17/64"
The same happened to #7 gauge - around the globe it is 7 1/4", only in US again, it is 7 1/2", too. The exact gauge of 7 1/16" for 1 1/2" scale didn't get hold, either. No wonder that gauge was called 'Blacksmith Gauge' at a time.

Helmut
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 I leafed through some very old issues of MR ( 50's ), where e.g. Eric LaNal told about H0's beginnings. It started to be 5/8" gauge, and soon it was found out that the then-available motors didn't fit into models built to 1:90 or 1:96(US practice). This led to some expansion by ~5%, only the Brits weren't satisfied due to their smallish loading gauge and inflated the outline further by ~15%. It was called 00 and fit nicely to 3/4" gauge. For years, until WWII, there was a confusion of naming the newfangled gauge. Märklin of Germany started in 1935 with what they called '00' - but that was 5/8" track gauge and ~1:75 scale. The other manufacturers added to the confusion, too.

Robert Comerford
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Hi Helmut, Alan Rice came along some years after HO and OO were being done by the Brits. The reason for the British going to OO due the motor size is a popular myth.
One of the workers who was there working for the company who started it all wrote many years later to a British magazine to correct the misconception. The reason was due to the oversized width of the wheels then thought necessary and because of the small loading gauge in the UK, the gauge had to be decreased to fit those wheels under the body.
regards
Bob

Helmut
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@b, thanks for the info. It just shows that so many years after the setting of scales and gauges, a lot of even contradictory narration is floating around. here's some further reading for those interested.

Tim H
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Henry Greenly was an advocate of under gauge track, the RH&DR suffers from the same malaise and Greenly was responsible, unfortunately he also had some influence with Frank Hornby. 

Getting back to the thread: The 1 to 45 Forum has developed rather well, it now features news and reviews of continental outline as well as member's projects. We don't cater for British nor American outline as these genres have forums a plenty but we do provide a venue for those interested in something a bit left field without having to discuss everything in German.

More importantly, we are not part of a society, no fees to pay and no connection with any manufacturers.

Tim Hale

Last edited on Sat Apr 16th, 2016 09:05 pm by Tim H

Herb Kephart
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Well said, Tim

Any scale or gauge is welcome here to discuss creating models. I try to only discourage folks who are collectors -- as you said, there are many other venues on the web that cater to them.

Herb

W C Greene
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Did you say "collectors" or was that possibly "correctors" as in "those rivets are too big!"...

Woodrow

Herb Kephart
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correctors

Hmm

Being guilty myself of this at times, I believe that it is a fungus that feeds on the corrector not doing enough modeling--and creating-- on their own.

Guilty as charged, yer Honor!

Ku Shen   (look it up)

W C Greene
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OK then, you are really HERBAL. I stand corrected, connected, collected, and all that other stuff.

The "O scale" scale issue is really interesting. There is 1:43, 1:45, 1:48, stand off scale, stand way off scale, and get out the slide rule to figger it all out. As the beat writer Ken Keasey put forth-"you're either on the bus or off the bus." Who is "right"? Just remember the good old Lionel scale-as long as it fits on 1.25" gauge track, it is right.

Or, as another beat generation icon, Mr. Natural, was asked..."Mr. Natural, what does it all mean?", he replied-"it don't mean S$%^ !"

Here come the angry townsfolk with pitchforks and torches, sieze ya later!!!
Woodrow

***We now return to the original intent of this thread. That is all***

Herb Kephart
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Pitchforks are one thing Woodie, but those damn feathers and tar are a problem.

Herb

Michael M
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Hey Woodie,

"Just remember the good old Lionel scale-as long as it fits on 1.25" gauge track, it is right."


Ya just gotta love Lionel.  There is scale, semi-scale, high-rail, low-rail, but not the middle rail.  Ya gotta be careful what you are buying from Lionel, Williams, or MTH to make sure it will fit with the trains you're running.  While I run mostly traditional Lionel equipment some other stuff finds its' way onto the layout  With Lionel there really isn't a scale especially when you look at the accessories (and you thought I just worked in 1/35 scale).

Lee B
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O scale is so odd. I have things all made for O scale but they clearly are made in different real scales. Some are 1/48, some 1/43, some 1/50, and some... well, I have no clue what it is.
The 3-railers didn't make it easy in that many of them revel in using anything that is close.
Then, there's the Brit O scale. That adds a new dimension.
THEN, there's the semi-scale 2-rail types, which use something I think is closer to S than anything else. I have figures made by the same company, all for O, and the actual scale is nowhere near one another.
I mean geez, say what you will about HO, but at least most of the stuff made for 1/87 is indeed 1/87!

Michael M
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Lee,

I feel your pain.  If O scale isn't challenging enough take a look at G scale.  Now,  is G scale 1:32, 1:29, 1:20.3, pr 1:24?  Or maybe something you haven't heard of.  Try ordering parts through the mail that are simply labeled as 'G' scale.

In 1:35 scale parts are borrowed from both O scale and G scale.  I've used some Tri-ang OO scale metal frame cars as a starting point for something homemade.  I've also used some HO and N scale tank cars as either fuel or water storage.

Lee B
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Michael M wrote: Lee,



I feel your pain.  If O scale isn't challenging enough take a look at G scale.  Now,  is G scale 1:32, 1:29, 1:20.3, pr 1:24?  Or maybe something you haven't heard of.  Try ordering parts through the mail that are simply labeled as 'G' scale.



Good point, Michael. That's one of the reasons I got out of G (that the and crushing cost of just about anything in that scale) as there didn't seem to be any consistency to be able to order anything without seeing it first.

Michael M
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Lee,

I'm really enjoying working in 1:35 scale.  Two-foot narrow gauge comes out to HO gauge so HO and On30 mechanisms can be used.  I made a critter using an HO Plymouth switcher, and a rail truck using a Bachmann HO Brill trolley.  And, they're radio controlled using the guts from inexpensive RC cars.  Granted you have to do a lot of scratch building, but at least my railroad won't look like anybody else's.  I'm also building the pike outside so I don't have to deal with any pesky walls constraining me.

Herb Kephart
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Ah Scratchbuilding!

To me, that's the way to go.

Herb


So who out there said "Get going then?"

oztrainz
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Hi all

Sometimes you can get lucky and some rubber-scaling will do the job



A 1/45 scale Magic Trains Stainz goes close to an "exact fit" to a smaller-sized  but bigger-scaled 1/43 scale Krauss when compared to the prototype photo

Richard A-J
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Bob D wrote: Good luck Tim with your forum :apl:

I often wonder why we have all these different scales that are so close to one another. I'd like to see a group of engines or rolling stock side-by-side that represents all our different scales, just to see how much difference there is.

Bob D.

I can't show you all three O scales but I can show you the difference between the two outer scales, 1:43 and 1:48 (see below).

For me this is too big a difference for the two to be mixed successfully (unless trying to create perspective), and being as I collect both British and American (and would like other countries aswell) it means I am having to make my American's at 1:43 scale. The photo shows my unfinished attempt at enlarging the end of a box car to 1:43 scale alongside the original at 1:48.

I reckon you could get away with mixing 1:45 scale with the other two, but not 1:43 and 1:48 scale.

I have recently discovered that the Americans used 1:45 scale many many years ago. It was called 17/64" scale or O(17) and it died out in the 1950s. Apparently there is still some stock around on the second hand market and I believe there are still some folk over there who model at that scale. Can't find much on the Net, some photos and a little discussion.

Rich

Attachment: 1.43 v 1.48 (800x549).jpg (Downloaded 91 times)

Last edited on Thu Sep 7th, 2017 11:05 pm by Richard A-J

Helmut
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Michael M wrote:   Now,  is G scale 1:32, 1:29, 1:20.3, pr 1:24? 
That's exactly why those that adhere to a certain fixed scale here in Germany make fun of that "Gummibahn-Eisenbahner" (Rubbertrain Modelers). But to be fair, that horrible 1:29 business started in the USA. Probably by some with British ancestors that in the 1920's adhered to Henry Greenly's modeling standards that amongst others led to 1:3 scale on 15" gauge.

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True '0' scale has to be 1:45 and nothing else, because 1.25" scale out to 56.25". Closer you can't get. 1:48 should run on 30mm gauge, and 1:43.5 on 33mm gauge track. The difference between 1:43.5 (British 0) and 1:45 (Continental 0) is 6.7% and can optically be tolerated in most cases. The 10% difference to 1:48 is as heavy as 1:87 vs. 1:76.
( There was American 00 on 19mm guage track way back in the fifties! Jock Oliphant comes to mind )

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Helmut quote:- "True '0' scale has to be 1:45 and nothing else …."


Can't argue with that. The trouble with 1:45 scale is that there is not much else at that scale (perhaps you know better). I started my modelling by collecting model vehicles.  I kept to 1:43 scale and managed to aquire quite a wide variety of transport at that scale from horses to horse drawn vehicles, then all manner of road transport, buses, trucks (struggling with construction vehicles), agriculture, even the odd ships, and recently have even managed to find some aircraft at that scale. When I then discovere British O scale was 1:43 I decided to get into railway modelling. It's a great shame some scale standards weren't layed out a long time ago in the modelling world.


Helmut quote:- "The 10% difference to 1:48 is as heavy as 1:87 vs. 1:76."


Yes, Miniature Wunderland in Hamburg (never been) are plannning to do a British scene, I hope they don't do it at OO scale. They should 3D print some stuff at HO scale.



Last edited on Fri Sep 8th, 2017 11:21 pm by Richard A-J

Clinton Ross
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