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Si.archived
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The last 4 Posts from 'pt.I' of the Thread.
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Hi Miner 49ers 
Well, slight progress on this one !
I have decided to draw up my own building elevations for The Grand Central Gold Mining Co.
If anyone comes along & has some old kit plans they could eMail me, I'm still interested though.
Looking closely at the 'proportions' of one of the assembled Grand Central kits I've seen...
...although the finished structure looks for sure like the one in the vintage photo...
...it seems to my eyes, that the 'proportions' have been squished & squashed quite a bit anyhow.
I think the key thing here, is in fact, how the windows look.
As mentioned on previous pages <<< Bog standard 3x4 sash windows.
Look at pretty much ANY building around the Gilpin Tram, & chances are they'll have them.
The drawing from the 'Trout Creek Engineering' kit box
looks as though it has been pretty much 'traced' line by line, from the original vintage photograph.
The drawing however has always appeared a bit 'odd' to me though.
Basically, it's been drawn with the wrong windows !!
They ARE the windows you get in the kit, but obvoiusly NOT the prototype windows at all.
In a different kit, that was on eBay a while back
the windows are CORRECT, but the general proportions of the building look pretty darn wrong.
Does all this really matter ?
Well, If you keep looking from one wrong example to the next,
it doesn't make it that easy to do your own set of drawings.
So, I've decided to TRASH all the box drawings & kit photos...
...and work from the original vintage photograph only.
Made some enlarged gridded prints, using the ink-jet printer yesterday.
More on that later . . .
" There's gold there I tell yer ! ... gold ... Gold ! ... GOLD !! "
Si.
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Chriss H said :-
Si, cool project, I think I remember seeing something about that lack of door frame in the "Gilpin Railroad Era" book, I've only started reading it, but the other night I took it with me to Starbucks to enjoy a couple of down time hours, and couldn't resist just flipping through each page looking at all the amazing photos. I'll have a look see again this weekend and see if I can find that comment on the mine door, I believe they said it was for their ore unloading cars to the Gilpin Tram, the white was painted on to help in judging the door height (so as not to crack one's noggin'), makes sense, and also since people were generally a touch shorter 100 years ago, on average, that would mean that isn't a real tall building. I'd guess 6' to 6'4" for the height of that doorway.
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Hi Chriss
It's funny you should say that.
I've been looking at that doorway as well.
I figured around 6'6", a U.K std. door is that height & 2'6" wide.
There's the door on the right of course, as well.
& those windows were a BOG STD. factory unit with std. panes.
I havn't been able to find out the size though.
I had guestimated maybe 8"x10" or 10"x 12" glass.
Some photographic plates were that size as well.
Not that that has anything to do with it, or does it ??
But you are right, I think, about the average height back then.
I think it WAS generaly shorter.
I have the length of the building in feet.
But ONLY because that's what 1 kit maker made it.
Probably WRONG.
The kit build looks 'squashed' in LENGTH.
Mmm...
I actualy just want the 'proportion' to look 'correct'.
The actual size kinda doesn't matter.
There are a ton of Gilpin photos to base drawings on.
The '2-yardstick' is of course, the doorways,
even if there are no figures in the pix.
Anyway.
I printed the photo onto some of the graph-paper
that has feint BLUE grid markings.
Never done that before.
WOW !!
Does that make the photo easier to start drawing
lines over & estimating sizes or what !!
So, printed a crane, Gilpin Caboose & a couple of others
on the same paper, a few copies of each.
Progress at least.
Si.
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Michael said :-
Hello Si,
A word of warning if I may from half a wasted lifetime of trying to photo interpolate building and rolling stock sizes from a a doorframe or nearby 'average height' person. When estimating close up dimensions (door, window, pipe work sizes etc) it is so easy to severely underestimate parallax error. If a person of known height is standing even just a couple of feet ahead or behind an object (door frame etc.) the error is far more than you might expect. Even posing a known model of exact Standard Welsh Height, i.e. Madame Salada, she has to stand right next to the subject object to be any sort of accurate guide.
Don't be fooled by the " people were smaller then" argument. If you measure a Victorian industrial/commercial door height such as a railway station doorway, it usually won't be less than 7'6" to 8' oo". Standard modern UK/US domestic doors are 6'8" , smaller than 100 years ago !
Doorways were sometimes seen as something of a statement as to the merit/status of the business. Though this is probably not true of a remote mine, the door will still have been dimensioned to allow for carrying timber props, machine shafting etc through it.
Looking at your B&W group photo, if we guess the woman is about 5'4" sans killer heels ( my favourite, not for me except when allowed as a weekend treat, but as worn by She) then the miner chap in the doorway is at least 5'9" - 5'10" . I reckon the white outlined doorway ain't much less than 7' min. high.
My usual fee scale applies (some hope), Michael
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____________________
' Mysterious Moose Mountain ' - 1:35n2 - pt.II
http://www.freerails.com/view_topic.php?id=7318&forum_id=17&page=1
' M:R:W Motor Speedway !!! ' - 1:32 Slotcar Racing Layout
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W C Greene
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Now Si, the ONLY way you (and pick-nickers) will ever know
the straight dope, is to climb into Mr. Peabody's "Way Back Machine"
and measure the windows, etc. yourself.
But then it may be so fascinating in an earlier time
that you lose Mr. P's phone number.
Maybe Capt. Kirk will rescue you when
the Enterprise gets stuck in a time warp.
Beam me up, Scotty....
WCG
____________________
It doesn't matter if you win or lose, its' how you rig the game.
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oztrainz
Super Moderator
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One for Si and Woodie
Victor, Colorado
http://www.shorpy.com/node/7499?size=_original#caption
Now if you look far right, up on the hillside,
just above that line of parked boxcars above the town, sitting on top of the ridge,
you have Grand Central's little brother.
The "Less Grande Central" 
____________________
Regards,
John Garaty
Unanderra in oz
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pipopak
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Seems we need larger monitors.... or private shows at the local cinema!!!
Jose.
____________________
Junk is something you throw away three weeks before you need it.
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pipopak
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Seems that Mr Murphy is alive and well...
Jose.
____________________
Junk is something you throw away three weeks before you need it.
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Jon Dierksheide
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I'm a little late to the party, but I'll add my two cents worth.
The Sanborn Fire maps were drawn to scale and there is a scale on the sheet,
10 ft is the smallest interval, but it could probably get you to +/- a foot.
https://www.loc.gov/resource/g4314cm.g009721900/?sp=12&r=0.013,0.159,0.667,0.441,0
Second, most building materials come in 2 ft increments.
Corrugated iron roofs are usually 2 ft wide installed (a little wider but they overlap).
Based on that, it looks like the right of the headframe, are 8 panels, or 16 feet.
Headframe is about 6 1/2 or 13 feet, and to the left, 4 panels or 8 ft, for a total of 37 ft.
There may be a little more to the right of the headframe.
If you want to get precise (in case they overlapped a few corrugations to avoid cutting)
you could count the corrugations in the photo:
https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/39687/rec/3
If the roof pitch is 45 degrees and the panels were 2 by 10,
then that would make the roof about 28 ft wide.
Minus some overhang, and 26 or 27 ft looks about right.
You could extend the support wires, to get the top of the 35 ft IC for a vertical scale,
or just assume the walls are 8 ft high.
I also see a few hinges on the side towards the back like another door.
And while the models show a wood floor,
I don't see a wooden floor in the doorway by the people.
I wouldn't be surprised if only half the building had a floor, and the left was dirt.
It does look like there is step/threshold on the left side door, so who knows.
One last thing, the vertical boards are random widths,
not all the same as some of the kits appear to be.
I'm sure it was done so our models would be more interesting !
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Jon Dierksheide
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I did a quick scale of the building based on the Sanborn map.
And it appears to be 25 by 42,
with a 10 by 10 on the end,
and 8 by 16 addition on the back, about 7-8 ft from the end.
Assuming the drawing was actually to scale.
I think the corrugated roof is a better way to scale it.
And that would save some precious layout space.
And photos don't lie,
at least not 100 years ago !
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darrylhuffman
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| Location: | Star, Idaho USA |
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I personally like to make a quick mock-up
to see how it fits in my scene.
____________________
Darryl Huffman
451 N Evelyn Way
Star, ID 83669
The search for someone else to blame is always successful.
http://ghosttownmodels.blogspot.com/
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