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Reg H
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Kozo Hiraoka is a household name in the world of live steam.
He has published a series of books detailing the construction of live steam locomotives.
I have started the New Shay (as opposed to his first Shay project) in 3/4" scale.
It promises to be a challenging project.
The theme for today is "do not despise the day of humble beginnings".
Today I got the frame side rails machined to length.
A small step, but a step nonetheless.
Here is the process:
It was a challenge getting the rails properly clamped.
They are just over 28" (730mm) long.
Here is the book cover:
The genesis of this project was the idea of completing a Kemtron Shay project in 1/4" scale,
that I had started some 40 years ago.
But I don't have the gears and couldn't find anyone who had any for sale.
So a pretty good-sized project turned into a huge one.
Hopefully I can get it completed in what's left of my life time.
Reg
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Reg
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Reg H
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Those who wander through the other Freerails Forums know me (Reg) as being scale-flexible,
having posts in the 'On30' and 'HO/OO' Sub-Forums.
Some may know that I have wandered into the world of machine work.
Though it may seem I have completely lost my mind,
I recently began work on the Kozo Hiraoka live steam, 3/4" scale 'New Shay'.
Work on the HO layout has not ceased.
Both projects will move along on parallel paths. I detest boredom.
So far I have almost completed the frame rails. They are a bit difficult to photograph.
But there will be other photos as progress happens.
Strangely enough, the project started with some research in completing a Kemtron 1/4" scale Shay.
It is a project I started some 40 years ago and got laid aside for a variety of reasons.
I was getting bored learning machine work on vertical steam engines,
typical of those used in factories and mills in the 19th and early 20th centuries.
I learned a lot, but they just were not railroad related.
I do not have all the Kemtron pieces for the Shay. Notably, the gears.
Yes, it is possible to machine gears. That is well above my pay grade.
In my search for suitable gears (hard to find and expensive),
I came across the Kozo Hiraoka series of books.
I got hooked.
The "test" factor was the ability to acquire the gears.
Once I had those in my hands, the final decision was made.
So we are off and running.
Reg
I will be presenting progress here in 'Large Scale' as time allows.
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Reg
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Reg H
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I found a dandy little tool that serves multiple purposes.
It is a 'Laser Center Finder', though it is useful for other tasks than just center finding.
But it does get out of calibration from time to time. Mine did that this afternoon.
I had done a very cursory reading of the calibration instructions,
and thought I had the process figured out.
NOT!
I spent most of the afternoon,
attempting to get the little blighter back into calibration with no success.
So, I went back read the instructions CAREFULLY.
Following that I finally understood the calibration process.
It is not particularly intuitive, but it is not very difficult either.
Following the proper procedure,
I had the center finder back in calibration in less than 10 minutes.
No matter how clever I think I am, I should always carefully read the instructions.
Here is the center finder with the calibration target in the vertical mill's vice.
There are four calibration screws, visible as black dots on the barrel.
One would think that you could adjust the calibration,
by centering the laser dot at the intersection of the cross. Not exactly.
First, you know the device is out of calibration, when you turn the spindle by hand,
and the dot travels in a circle instead of staying put on the marked center.
The process is to put the dot in the center of the circle,
described by the dot when the spindle is rotated.
Then you adjust the calibration screws based on the direction the dot moves.
Not difficult, but one can be driven crazy trying to do it the way I thought it should be.
In use, I have the center finder in one collet, the center-drill in another collet,
and the appropriate drill bit in the Jacobs chuck. I can swap the tools out quite quickly.
First, use the center finder to get everything lined up (+/- 0.01mm).
Spot drill with the center-drill, and then drill the hole.
If it needs to be tapped I use the center-drill as a guide for the tap.
It used to take me 10-15 minutes to line up a hole using the point on the center-drill,
or a traditional "kick out" center finder
With the aid of the 'Laser Center Finder',
I can have the hole drilled in under 5 minutes and be within the +/- 0.01mm.
Reg
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Reg
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Reg H
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Yes, one sixteenth scale.
Or... 3/4" = 1 foot.
What takes some getting used to is that the plans are in metric.
So... I suppose, 19.05mm = 1 foot.
Another aspect I have to work to get my head around...
The scaling on the plans indicates a precision (or accuracy) of +/- 0.01mm
For one used to working in imperial measurements, that does not seem to be very precise.
Until converted to imperial... +/- 0.0004" !!!!
Reg
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Reg
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Si.archived
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" The inch scale thing always drove me nuts "
I've noticed that 1/4" & 1/2" fractions don't generally flummox folk ...
... BUT chuck in an oDd number, like a 3 or 7 and ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE !
- - - - - - -
" I prefer a ratio and a inch size per foot calls for math "
When I was at school (about 37 years ago) a ratio was always expressed ...
... with a : 'colon' between two numbers (sometimes decimals !) ie. 1:13.714286 ...
... or just 1:13.7 if Kozo isn't teaching class !
Or 7/8" if you're a model railroader !!
- - - - - - -
" I think this would be 1/16 scale, am I right ? "
What ? ... You mean 1.5875 mm per foot ? ...
... making the 37' end to end Shay 58.73 mm or 2 1/3" long.
Good luck with Zn3 live steam Reg !
Si.
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' Mysterious Moose Mountain ' - 1:35n2 - pt.II
http://www.freerails.com/view_topic.php?id=7318&forum_id=17&page=1
' M:R:W Motor Speedway !!! ' - 1:32 Slotcar Racing Layout
http://www.slotforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=59295&st=0&a
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Reg H
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Though it is slow, progress is being made.
The frame rails are all but complete.
As I was going through the QC stage I noted that one of the MANY holes was out of line.
I plugged the offending hole last night (12/15) and, after letting the Loctite set overnight,
will clip and file off the excess and drill and tap a hole in the proper location this evening.
Speaking of tapping,
here is a trick I have employed to make sure the taps start, and stay, straight.
I simply use a small center drill/countersink to hold the tap vertical.
The actual tapping is done by hand.
I advance the spindle after about three rotations of the tap handle,
in order to keep the center drill in contact with the top of the tap.
That approach also allows me to monitor the depth of the tap,
as long as I remember to zero the Digital Readout (DRO) before I start.
The next step is to fabricate the frame rail end brackets.
Reg
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Reg H
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Progress inches forward.
The frame rails are complete,
except for some holes that are aligned using other parts... that are not fabricated yet.
But some are.
Here is the first frame rail end bracket.
And the full complement...
The next step for these, is to fabricate the drilling jig for the mounting holes.
Machine work is very different from scratchbuilding in wood and styrene I have done in recent decades.
Setting up operations and fabricating jigs and holders, often takes more time than the actual operation.
It does not require a great deal of dexterity to clamp a part in the milling vise and then set it up,
using the calibrations on the mill and the digital readout (DRO) to get it all aligned +/- 0.01mm.
That is 0.0004 inches!!
In some ways, that is a good thing.
At 72 I do not have the manual dexterity I once had.
That is not really a factor, even for very small parts, when in the machine shop.
Because of the close tolerances and the forces involved,
parts must be held very firmly during the machining operation.
I suppose the same approach could be applied to other scratch/kit building projects.
I will have to give that some thought.
In this case, fabricating multiple, essentially identical parts, the set up is done for one operation,
and all the parts go through that operation before moving on to the next operation.
In this case step one, was to mill four blanks 24x24x10mm
Step two, was to mill out the shape you see in the photos.
Step three, will be to drill the holes by which the brackets fasten to the end sill.
The jig to drill those holes in the brackets will also be used to drill holes in the end sill.
The holes to attach the brackets to the frame rails, and matching holes in the frame rails,
will be drilled at the same time in one operation using the brackets as a jig.
I will post pictures.
Reg
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Reg
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Reg H
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The drilling jig for the frame rail end brackets is ready...
The end brackets should all be drilled by the time I hit the sack this evening.
Note the numeral "3" on the bracket.
You can't see it, but there is also an "F" punched on the part.
In fabricating these parts it is imperative that they be numbered,
so the right part goes in the right place.
In this case, this bracket goes on the front of the right hand frame rail.
Reg
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Reg
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Reg H
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Some progress has been made... and some mistakes have also been made.
I describe my failures because failures are often more instructive than successes.
There are modelers on this Forum that are much more accomplished than I,
and certainly amateur machinists in the World who work on a much higher plane.
Describing my mistakes, and the lessons learned, just might help out someone else.
It keeps me humble, too.
Having said that, here is one of the end brackets assembled on one of the frame rails.
All parts will be trial fitted, removed, fitted again, many times before final assembly.
There is a story of failure and recovery in this photo,
all related to the file marks on the frame rail.
Most of my mistakes come from failing to exercise sufficient patience,
and this tale is no exception.
The first mistake was failing to confirm the bit I had in the Jacobs chuck at the start.
The mounting holes in the brackets serve as the jig for drilling holes in the frame rails.
When I started drilling the frame rail holes I was in a bit of a hurry to get started.
There was a bit in the chuck.
I glanced at the drill bit case and noted that the tap drill (2.1mm) was not in it's slot.
So... I assumed the drill in the chuck was the tap drill.
I failed to notice that the clearance bit (2.5mm) was also missing.
I drilled all eight frame rail holes 2.5mm and did not notice until I went to tap the first one.
First lesson... always take the time to be certain of the tool you have mounted in the machine.
Holes drilled oversized can be plugged and re-drilled.
In this instance, I drilled the holes out 1/8" and used Loctite to secure 1/8" rod in the hole.
I got the holes for three of the brackets re-drilled and tapped before I quit for the evening.
The next session was short, I only had an hour or so to play in the shop.
I wanted to get that last bracket drilled and test fit.
I was in a hurry... again.
I did not notice, until I drilled the holes, that I had the bracket on the frame rail upside down!!!
The result being that the holes in the frame rail were about 1/2 a diameter out of line.
It is inadvisable to try the plug routine when a hole is only slightly out if it needs to be tapped.
Failure is almost certain. Doubly so if the hole had been plugged once before!!
It looked like I was in for my fifth attempt at fabricating the frame rails.
The stock is expensive, and there are 36 holes to be accurately located and drilled.
A lot of opportunities for even more mistakes. I was less than excited about the prospect.
After much fussing, and sleeping on the problem,
I decided to mill out the frame rail in vicinity of the out of line holes and braise in a piece.
This worked very well, thanks to taking my time and being sure of every step, I learned,
trying to braise a piece into a thing as massive as frame rails with propane, is a non-starter.
Those rails are 1/4" X 3/4" cross section brass and about 29" long.
A perfect heat sink. I found that oxy-acetylene works very well.
I spent about 15 minutes trying to get enough heat to the joint to melt the silver solder,
with the propane torch, no success. It took just a few seconds with the oxy-acetylene.
That solder scurried into the joint like it was chased by the devil himself.
The file marks are the result of cleaning up the braised joint.
The good news...
The frames rails and their end brackets are complete.
This is the last of the machine work on these parts.
So no more opportunities to make major mistakes.
These frame rails are the last large pieces until I get to the boiler.
All other assemblies consist of multiple small parts.
So multiple mistakes won't be so expensive and daunting.
For the record, it took me four attempts to fabricate two frame rails.
The overall lesson...don't be in a hurry.
The next step is fabricating the end sills.
Reg
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Reg
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Reg H
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I note that I neglected to post a photo of the bracket jig at work.
Here it is...
Just a word...
If you are intrigued by this kind of project, at this kind of scale (3/4"),
yes you can do it.
Yes, setting up a machine shop is a bit pricey.
But for most live steamers, the building of one locomotive is their entire project.
If you add up what you might spend to build a medium sized smaller scale layout,
the price looks much more reasonable from that standpoint.
(Disclaimer...I am working on an HO scale layout alongside this project.
But I acquired a bevy of locomotives and rolling stock through an estate sale)
If you are intrigued,
I would suggest getting Kozo Hiraoka's book on building the Pennsylvania A3 switcher.
This is really the basic beginner book in his series,
and includes a chapter on setting up a machine shop "...you can afford"
Even if you have no interest in building an 0-4-0 switcher,
the book is a great resource.
I started off with a plan to build a Shay in 1/4" scale.
It is called "mission creep" or "project inflation".
In my own experience...
I built up a lot of bits and pieces over many years with no intention of this scale.
I wanted a machine shop and I wanted to scratch build in 1/4" scale.
So I had a collection of measurement tools, files, etc.
When it came time to pull the trigger, I stumbled upon an older, but very nice Clausing 12" lathe.
Though most of the lathes on eBay are in pretty rough shape, there are gems out there.
You just need to be patient. There's that word again.
My lathe was actually advertised on Craig's List.
I added one of the bench top, Chinese, vertical mills.
It is small, but it handles the chores for this project just fine.
You can do all the machining you need to do with a lathe,
but a mill makes quite a few jobs a lot easier.
There are a lot of good videos on YouTube related to the home machine shop.
With that, and some basic publications, you can learn to do this.
Reg
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Reg
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Reg H
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Another note...
The laser center finder has proven to be a disappointment.
Actually, it isn't the disappointment, though I have had difficulty keeping it aligned.
It won't stay aligned once removed from the collet and put back in.
I am doing something wrong.
But I am having trouble getting a response from the company.
Great product, lousy customer service.
So I have returned to the (mostly) old school of locating holes.
Layout lines are marked, often with the height gauge on the surface plate, same as before.
But I have gone back to the age-old center punch.
Buried deep in one of my tool boxes I found an excellent automatic punch.
It is VERY sharp and is excellent quality.
I would expect it to be labeled "Starrett" given the quality,
the top line name in machine measuring tools.
It is not, but it is a product of Great Britain.
I have had it for a very long time, and I don't know where I got it.
The automatic punch, by virtual of it's very sharp point, delivers a very narrow dimple.
So I enlarge the dimple with a manual punch.
This is another one that has been around for so long I don't remember where it came from.
It is an ancient Craftsman that predates my ownership.
Whoever owned it before used it a lot.
The striking end is thoroughly peened over. But the point is very sharp.
It comes from the very old days when Sears, through their Craftsman name,
offered good quality basic tools at a reasonable price.
The sharp point on the automatic punch makes it very easy
to drag the punch along one line until the intersection with the crossing line is "felt".
It is a very "old school" method.
It takes just a little practice to get the hang of it.
If I found the need to buy a new punch, it would have to be Starrett.
You can get a punch at the hardware store for about $10. The Starrett is $40.
But this is one area where it is unwise to scrimp.
The one nod to modernity is the use of the traditional "kick-out" edge finder,
in conjunction with the Digital Readout on the mill.
It works really well if the hole is dimensioned from two edges.
Reg
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Reg
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Reg H
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The first end sill is machined to length.
There is a lot of work to be done on this assembly.
The first task will be to drill the frame rail bracket holes.
But there is a bunch of other tasks that include,
fabricating the couple pockets (link & pin), poling pockets, and foot boards.
There are brackets for the catwalk as well.
Reg
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Reg
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Reg H
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I have a bit of a problem to work out.
It is founded in the twin facts, that the plans are all in metric,
and metric materials are either unobtainable in the US or are prohibitively expensive.
In most cases it is not really a big problem.
For most parts I can start out with material that is slightly larger and machine it to size.
But the frame rails present a challenge.
They are too long for me to machine to metric dimensions with the tools that I have.
The 1/4"x3/4" dimension is close to the metric specification, but not exact.
In looking over the plans, it appeared (and still does) to me,
that the critical dimension is the distance between the inside edges of the frame rails.
So I drilled all the holes in the narrow edge off center by the difference
between the specified metric material and the imperial material I was able to obtain.
In other words, the center line of those holes is not the center line of the frame rail.
The specified material is 6mm wide. The actual 1/4" material is 6.35mm wide.
The holes are drilled 3mm from the inside edge,
so are 0.35mm off the center line of the material towards the inside edge.
On the plans the holes to mount the frame brackets to the end sills are dimensioned
off the center line of the end sill and the vertical center line between each set of holes.
If I drill the end sill that way, the distance between the inside edges of the frame rails
will be incorrect by .7mm. But which way?
In the broad context, the concept is pretty simple.
But getting down to the actual mathematics is proving to be a bit of a mind bender.
Though it is out of sequence, I am tempted to machine and test fit the bolsters,
to establish the proper distance between the frame rails, before drilling the end sills.
Maybe.
Stay tuned.
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Reg
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Steven B
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Hey Reg
All I can say is, Wow.
Better math than me.
And you still have time for the layout?
Wow.
I'll be watching. I love a stemwinder.
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Steven B.
Humboldt & Toiyabe Rwy
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Nice Guy Eddie
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" the plans are all in metric, and metric materials "
An experienced engineer friend of mine told me his tools
all keep their razor sharp edges cutting unobtainium !
Eddie
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" We Got Places All Over The Place "
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Reg H
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In the interests of encouraging anyone who might have even the slightest interest in live steam,
I will post some information on setting up a shop.
One thing I want to mention...my approach is mostly about "doing". For me, once the project is finished, the fun is over. If the object of building is to own, this kind of project is probably not for you. It is about the journey, the destination is secondary.
There are plenty of "do's" and "don't's" in that endeaver. I found it difficult, when setting up my shop, sorting out what I really needed and what I could do without. I have made mistakes in both directions. I will share what has worked for me, and what has gathered dust.
I will do this in bits and pieces.
First, the queen of my shop and the central tool in any machine shop, the lathe. Actually, you can do almost any machine work necessary to build a live steam locomotive with just the lathe and a drill press. Plenty of folks have done it.
But a vertical mill comes in mighty handy.
More on the mill another time.
My lathe is a Clausing 12 X 36. That is: the swing over the bed is 12" in diameter
(the British use the radius, so this is a 6" lathe in Great Britain) and 36" between centers.
"Wow!" You say. That must have cost a fortune!! Well no. Inexpensive, no, but about what a new, smaller, Chinese, lathe would have cost. It is just a matter of patience. This lathe is 1948 vintage, but is in excellent condition and does everything a more modern lathe will do, short of CNC. Not even talking about CNC. This is all (well mostly) old school. I paid $1,600 for this tool and it was ready to go as soon as I got it home.
It came with a nice supply of accessories and bits and pieces, too. The big accessories are in the photo. Most new lathes come with a three-jaw centering chuck and a face plate. But you will want a four-jaw independent chuck. My lathe came with the steady rest (for long pieces) and the milling attachment, neither of which I have used yet. If buying a new lathe, add in the cost of a four-jaw, which is considerable for a good one. And there is no future in buying cheap machine tools.
The only additional accessories I have purchased for this lathe is the quick-change tool post.
Getting the lathe out of the sellers shop and into mine was not a trivial exercise. A lathe this size weighs just shy of 700 pounds...without the table. You want to find one close to home. I was able to haul this one (and the steel table) in a 1/2-ton pickup truck. You really don't want to have to ship something this size cross-country.
A way to save some money is to buy a "fixer". But you better do your research. A lathe whose ways are worn down is just scrap iron. Of course, this would be your first "project" in live steam. People do it. In fact, for some folks, refurbishing old lathes is a hobby in itself.
Another way to save money is to go smaller.
Below is my first lathe.
It is a 6" Atlas 106. Actually marketed as a Craftsman. It dates from about 1950.
These are great lathes and there is a very active community involved with their use and refurbishment. There are lots of parts floating around, too. I bought this one for $720 and hauled it home in my Honda Civic. It was in excellent condition and came with a nice supply of accessories.
These are very decent lathes and are large enough to handle the work to build a small live steam locomotive...such as one of Kozo Hiraoka's 3/4" scale models.
As I mentioned above, the key is patience. Haunt eBay and Craigslist and any local sources. When good lathes come up they will usually go fast. On a local Facebook source around here an Atlas 106 in really nice condition came up for $200. It was sold in a couple of hours.
Or you can get one of the small Chinese lathes. Lots of live steam builders use them. When comparing prices, remember that a used lathe will almost certainly come with an array of accessories and bits and pieces, a new lathe will not. A new lathe will come with a warranty. A used one will not.
You probably can't set up a machine shop with the egg money. Though surprises abound. For instance...when I bought the Clausing I gave, yep, gave, the Atlas to a friend. He needed it (for gunsmithing) and I didn't want to deal with the hassle of selling it. It worked out for both of us.
Compared to what it costs to build a typical small scale layout,
it really is not all that unreasonable cost-wise to build a live steam locomotive.
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Reg
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VERY IMPRESSED INDEED !!
