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'Jaxcilliest Enterprises' - On30 Layout
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 Posted: Thu Dec 10th, 2020 10:35 am
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oztrainz
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Hi all,

Now that at least 2 layouts on here are working on vertical hoists,
here's one I prepared earlier - from about way back in 2005.


Just suppose you apply the maximum "squeeze factor" to a mine type railroad.
A mine type railroad is simply a railroad that picks up stuff at a mine, takes it to a dump,
and then brings the empty wagons back to the mine for a refill.

You might possibly end up with something like:


Jaxcilliest Enterprises

I suppose this qualifies as a layout in that it is a "stand-alone railroad entity,
that moves "something" from "Somewhere" to "Somewhere Else".
Even if the "something" is the rare white haggis,
and the 2 "Somewhere's" are separated by only a few inches vertically.


Here's a photo to get things started:





So why "Jaxcilliest Enterprises" as a name,
and what's all this about a rare white haggis??

Back next time, when we travel back to the beginnings of the idea,
of this Ultra-Mini Hoist and Dump layout. 




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 Posted: Thu Dec 10th, 2020 08:03 pm
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oztrainz
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Hi all,

Time for some ancient history.


Some years ago there was a series of plans put together,
in the Quarrying and Mining section of the Micro Layout Design Gallery,
on the late Carl Arendt's Small/Micro Layouts for Model Railroads website.

https://lone.net/trains/carendt.morphoist.com/microplans/index.html.


The original concept by French modeller Bernard Junk,
was to haul stone from a quarry and tip it into a road vehicle at a lower level.

The late UK modeller "Shortliner" Jack Trollope modified the concept,
to tip from a loaded wagon at a higher level into another wagon at a lower level,
and then to swap wagons.

This took the now loaded wagon from the lower level to the tipping position on the higher level,
and moved the then empty wagon from the higher tipping position to the lower loading position.
The loaded wagon can now be tipped and the process starts all over again. 


Modifying the Design concept:

Shortliner's design was called "Jaxcilli Industries".
As Jack said in his description of his proposed  HO 3' by 2' layout, the name says it all.
Now suppose we get even "Cilli"-er, and apply even more "Squeeze" ? 

The shortest way to make a height difference is with a vertical hoist.
It cuts out the length of the uphill and downhill run between the tipping and loading points.
But that means you need a way of getting your wagon to the hoist at each level...

Just suppose that I go away from the original 2 wagons with 1 locomotive operation,
to 1 wagon with 2 locomotives operation, each locomotive is captive to its own level. 

I did have some On30 stuff that I use on another layout.
The 0-4-0 Porter steam loco, Davenport gas-mechanical loco and V-tip wagon are already "available".
All are shorter than a lot of HO locomotives and wagons.
If we're really going to apply the maximum squeeze factor, then shorter is better.
Even if we go up in scale from the original 1:87 to a larger 1:48. 

A cheap Life-Like HO operating accessory provided an an operational bin that can hold the "haggii",
while the one wagons is swapped from the "tipping" position to the "catching" position.





The minimum track length possible is at least long enough for the wagon,
to be clear of the hoist cage when spotted at the tipping point or loading point,
plus the length of the locomotive that is moving the wagon.
Here part of the length is being provided by the Life-Like coal tipple bin.

But the bin opening at the top of the bin is bigger than the On30 V-tip wagon.
The simple solution is to blank off part of the bin so that only the wagon length,
"plus a bit" to make sure that all tipped stuff makes it into the bin.    

And the opening at the bottom of the bin is almost longer than the On30 V-tip wagon selected,
because it was the shortest operating dump wagon I could find.
The simple solution to minimise spillage when loading the wagon is to blank off,
part of the opening so that all the load will land within about 3/4 of the hopper length.
The load will fan out slightly when it leaves the bin door,
so making the loading aperture as big as the hopper will almost guarantee some spillage occurs.
Reducing the size of the loading aperture goes a long way to minimising spillage,
but the aperture must also be large enough to ensure that nothing hangs up and blocks the bin.

Length of the hoist cage only has to be large enough that the V-tip fits wholly within the hoist cage.
Vertically, the hoist cage must be high enough to clear the top of the V-tip,
and also high enough to clear any loco that is shunting the V-tip wagon into or from the hoist.
Overall the hoist tower has to be high enough so that when the cage is at the upper level,
there is some headroom for over-runs caused by operator incompetence when driving the hoist.  

Just because a layout is small in size, doesn't mean the design doesn't have to be thought through.
There is arguably more design thought required when every fraction of an inch/mm counts,
than for a bigger layout with "room to spare". 


We'll cover the why of the hagii next.




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John Garaty
Unanderra in oz
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 Posted: Fri Dec 11th, 2020 09:13 am
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Helmut
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A 2008 adaption of that principle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOJEZGnSRNA  (The video isn't too crisp)


But here is the article about it, with some explanatory photos:

https://www.carendt.com/small-layout-scrapbook/page-89-september-2009/#squarefoot




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 Posted: Sat Dec 12th, 2020 11:14 am
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oztrainz
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Hi all,

And for some more 'cilli business.


First how the layout got its name.

So.. what's more sillier than "cilli"??  How about "cilliest",
because with maximum squeeze factor applied it probably can't get much sillier than this design.
Jack had already used "Industries" as a title in his layout plan, so I needed something a little different.
How about "Enterprises"??  It almost sounds like some real work is being done there. 
Ok, that's got the name sorted. 

Previously on some forums Shortliner Jack had signed off with "away up in the Highlands",
so that suggested a Scottish twist or theme for Jaxcilliest.
As someone who is in a location that is reasonably distant from the Highlands,
the thinking cap was applied and 3 things Scottish emerged from the distant Highland mists: 

1 - Whisky - but whisky barrels or bottles don't survive being dropped into a bin really well.
Scratch that idea.

2 - Shortbread biscuits ("cookies" to North American sassenachs) - dropping biscuits into a bin is a "crummy" recipe.
Scratch that idea.

3 - Haggis - no, not that haggis on a plate, but the "wild ones", that legend has it escaped to the Highlands.
Hmm, we might be on a winner here.  But how do you model a haggis??


Down here in Oz we have confectionery (a lolly/candy) called Tic Tacs.
These are usually white, pillow shaped and have a hard outer layer that is abrasion resistant.
This outer layer does not pick up water vapour easily so the individual pillows do not get soft or sticky easily.
They are also cheap which means that they are expendable when operations are done for the day.
Sounds just about ideal for a stand-in for the rare white haggis?? 


Believe it or not, I got a bagpiper from a Kinder Surprise that was close to 1/48 scale,
so the haggis can be serenaded while they are being processed through Jaxcilliest Enterprises.
As a further nod to Shortliner Jack who came up with an operational load and dump in a minimal footprint.   

Everyone knows that a haggis is reasonably squishy, so the story goes that,
the piper is required to serenade the haggii (multiples of haggis??) while they are being processed,
to prevent the white haggis from exploding when being tipped into or loaded out of the bin "processor".  


Now does that sound a silly enough back story to rate a "cilliest"??




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John Garaty
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 Posted: Sun Dec 13th, 2020 12:39 am
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Nice Guy Eddie
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I think Jaxcilliest has the serious business of haggis handling nailed !

Jaxcilliest looks very sensible when it comes to space saving !!


Seems to be a lot of sugar in those small white ones.
Does he ship the Lo-Cal. as well ?  :pop:


:f:


Eddie

 



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 Posted: Wed Dec 23rd, 2020 10:52 am
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oztrainz
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Hi all,

Now to have a quick look at what some of the requirements are for a successful operational model hoist.
In Business speak this would be called "Requirements Analysis".

Get the "thinking" correct first and a whole flock of stuff that could happen later probably won't happen,
because you've worked out what you "need to do" to do "what you need to do"


In no particular order -


1 - The x-y alignment at each deck level has to be repeatable.
This means that when the tracks on the hoist deck arrive at each deck level,
the tracks will be in the same relative position "every-time" to the fixed tracks on each deck.
This ensures perfect track alignment in 2 out of 3 axes of movement.
The accuracy of the up/down track alignment will depend on how well you can drive your hoist.


2 - You need to be able to keep anything on the hoist cage deck in place while the hoist cage is in transit between decks.
On the prototype, manually operated gates or tie-downs are used to keep the contents of the hoist cage within the hoist cage.
This really isn't an option for our models. So you have to think differently if you want a more hands-off operational hoist.


3 - The up-down alignment has to be repeatedly achievable.
This means that the gearing/power arrangement has to allow accurate positioning to within a railhead height or less.
A vertical misalignment greater than the height of a railhead of whatever code of track you are using,
is an invitation to derailments when moving stuff into or out of the hoist cage.


4 - The accuracy of vertical alignment at each deck,
may be complicated by electrical and mechanical choices made in the hoist mechanism.
Minimum movement limits, mechanical backlash in the hoist motor/gearbox,
are just 2 of the limitations that can make driving a hoist "challenging".   


5 - Flange heights do have an effect on derailments when getting stuff in and out of the hoist cage.
The vertical alignment precision required is a lot tougher for running fine N-scale wheel profiles,
than when compared to HO wheel profiles and also for fine versus coarser wheel profiles in the same scale.


6 - You need need to think through how you will move stuff in and out of the hoist cage.
This involves consideration of coupling choices, how and where uncoupling and re-coupling moves are done. 


7 -Your choice of hoist mechanism and what is supporting the hoist cage (cable/chain/etc)
needs to be strong enough to carry the load of the hoist cage itself and what is in it,
without mechanical failure (cable break or stretching)


8 - Hoist speed is dependent on 3 factors -
(a) the amount of volts applied to the hoist motor, 
(b) the gearing ratio between the motor and the hoist drum, and,
(c) the radius of the hoist drum itself.
By playing with these 3 factors you can have a hoist that moves between decks at a "satisfactory" speed.     


There is a bit more to designing and making a successful operational model hoist than it might appear,
even for a small one like that used on Jaxcilliest Enterprises.  

That'll do for this post,
Back next time with some thoughts on how you design in your cage alignment.




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John Garaty
Unanderra in oz
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 Posted: Wed Dec 23rd, 2020 10:56 am
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oztrainz
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For Eddie,

Lo-Cal is available, you just have to look in the right candy shop.  :P





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 Posted: Tue Dec 29th, 2020 08:08 pm
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Reg H
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Who claims they don't have room for a layout ?  ???







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 Posted: Tue Jun 1st, 2021 04:32 am
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oztrainz
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Hi all

It's been a while, but seeing Larry is getting close to building his hoist on Appetite Mine,
I thought I'd better complete the 'Jaxcilliest Enterprises' hoist saga first.


As I said previously - the X-Y alignment at each deck has to be repeatable.
This means that when the track on the hoist deck arrives at each level,
the tracks will be at the same relative position "every time" to the tracks on each level.
This ensures perfect alignment in 2 out of 3 axes.
Accuracy of the up-down track alignment depends on how well you can drive your hoist.  

This is one of the key requirements for an operational model hoist.
Get this wrong and you will have a "clunker" that will give you frustration very quickly.
If the hoist is an essential part of the layout operations as it is for 'Jaxcillest Enterprises',
rather than being just a "scenic animation", then your hoisting operation,
could be doomed from the start if you get this wrong. 


So how do you get this desired repeatable X-Y alignment?  The answer is not that hard.
It simply requires observations next time you are near a lift (elevator in US) or hoist.
The trick is looking for some suitable modelling supplies,
that can be used as a suitable guide mechanism for the hoist cage.
Again the answer doesn't have to be complicated. It just has to work. 

The answer is "nested sections".
If you have a C-section in brass and can find a suitable square or rectangular section
(either solid or hollow) that can slide inside the C-section with minimal sideways slop,
then if you attach the cage to that other section, the C-section is a guide for the cage.
The length of the nested section forms the height of the hoist cage 


The photo shows one of the 2 nested sections on the 'Jaxcilliest Enterprises' hoist cage,
and the C-section guide at top left.  The other nested section is diagonally opposite,
hidden behind the foamcore at centre right.





With a minimum of 2 of the nested sections mounted on opposite sides of the cage,
and assuming that you mount the C-section guides to the hoist tower walls,
so they run vertical and parallel, you now have the makings of a hoist that is constrained,
by the C-section so that the cage HAS to stop in the same X-Y relationship at each floor.

You lay your tracks in the hoist cage first.
Then lay tracks to the cage at each level, to line up with the track in the cage.
And you are well on the way to a reliable operational model hoist.


The nested sections used on 'Jaxcilliest Enterprises' were:
- K&S 3/16" square brass RHS #153 attached to the cage.
- Running inside K&S 1/4" brass channel #1185 attached to the hoist tower.

This gives less than 1/16" error at each level, which is close enough,
with wagons using HO-based wheel profiles, to clunk on and off the deck.


That'll do for this post.




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John Garaty
Unanderra in oz
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 Posted: Tue Jun 8th, 2021 12:57 am
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Si.
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Hi Johnsensiblest  :P

There's nothing silly about Jax's mine-hoist engineers !  :brill:


The main thing about attempting 'difficult' ...  :old dude:

... 'working' models is ...  L:

... they have to WORK !  :f:
I would love to see 'Jaxcilliest Enterprises' shift some Haggis !  :pop:



The brass-in-brass 'rails', for the up-down precision, are great.

Handy how those 'K.& S.' and 'Plastruct' sections 'telescope'.

I have found some nice pairings, like yours, for my car builds.  :thumb:


The 'Delrin' chain used as a non-loop, single-run, is BRILLIANT.  :bow:

I don't think I would have ever thunked that myself ...

... despite being a 'Delrin' chain fan already.  :cool:

TO THE HAGGIS CONVEYOR !  :doh:

:dt: :dt: :dt: :dt: :dt:


:java::moose:


Si.




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